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  #4926  
Old 04-17-2018, 06:34 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I actually wouldn't mind Alliance losing the faction war if it also meant either death or deposition and exile for Sylvanas in the end of it (as in, Sylvanas is firmly kicked out of the Horde for her transgressions). You could have the Horde win the faction war without having to eat babies to do it, sticking to their Thrall level honor after getting rid of Sylvanas and defeating those Alliance who are still hellbent on revenge and want to continue the war (though I do not think I want Genn or Jaina killed by the end of this). That would at least help it make sense why the Horde wouldn't annihilate the Alliance, and Alliance players would probably take a loss less sourly if one of the characters on the Horde they hate the most is finally dealt with in a sufficient manner.
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  #4927  
Old 04-17-2018, 07:30 AM
Gromak Gromak is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I actually wouldn't mind Alliance losing the faction war if it also meant either death or deposition and exile for Sylvanas in the end of it (as in, Sylvanas is firmly kicked out of the Horde for her transgressions). You could have the Horde win the faction war without having to eat babies to do it, sticking to their Thrall level honor after getting rid of Sylvanas and defeating those Alliance who are still hellbent on revenge and want to continue the war (though I do not think I want Genn or Jaina killed by the end of this). That would at least help it make sense why the Horde wouldn't annihilate the Alliance, and Alliance players would probably take a loss less sourly if one of the characters on the Horde they hate the most is finally dealt with in a sufficient manner.
This would be pretty much my ideal outcome of the story. The Horde rebels against Sylvanas internally and relatively quickly, maybe 2 patches into the expansions, and dispose of her. Maybe Loa'jin comes back and get's to be Warcheif again, or maybe Saurfang takes up the mantle, who knows. They'd offer peace to the Alliance since with Sylvanas gone it would also mean the main warmonger of the Horde is gone now. Alliance refuses out of distrust and need for vengeance/retribution against the Horde. War continues.

Boom, you now have a Horde that proved it does not put up with this shit again and that they stick to their values, and the Alliance can have some moral ambiguity by refusing to trust the Horde and choosing to continue the war (perhaps reluctantly, perhaps not).

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
If you're fine with having a hypocritical negligent demagogue run said Honorable Horde, then I must say I don't understand your standards of honor at all.

Unless you are so smitten by Thrall's words that you are unable to see the demagogy, of course.

That's how demagogy works, after all.
>Thrall is hypocrital demagogue
>Sylvanas is bae though
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  #4928  
Old 04-17-2018, 07:34 AM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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Given the old gods just want everyone including their mortal servants killed we will probably see jaina and Sylvanas aiding old gods to fight the other faction including fighting themselves as in Sylvanas vs jaina

Obviously

I mean the old gods will dispose of their pawns after they have achieved their stuff
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  #4929  
Old 04-17-2018, 07:43 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
If you're fine with having a hypocritical negligent demagogue run said Honorable Horde, then I must say I don't understand your standards of honor at all.

Unless you are so smitten by Thrall's words that you are unable to see the demagogy, of course.

That's how demagogy works, after all.
I'll just point out: people have been shown to be willing to overlook inconsistencies in their heroes if the heroes still appear to stand for ideals that said people identify with. Trump ran away with the Republican electorate being probably the least Republican primary candidate in 2016 for this reason. Much of the antiwar left still revere Barack Obama as well. Those are only two examples, you can find the same trend with just about any political figure with any sort of following, but especially in those we hold up as icons.

I agree that many of Thrall's decisions as warchief didn't line up with his rhetoric and indeed led the Horde straight into the situation that Garrosh tried to claw them out of in the only way he knew how. He was a terrible administrator, but he was nevertheless a champion of a Horde that could live peacefully and honorably. I don't think it's fair to transmogrify his failings into the values that Thrall boosters are looking to restore. I think they want the good of a thing and believe they can excise the bad, just like anyone else with an ideological position.
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  #4930  
Old 04-17-2018, 09:11 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Schizophrenia is saying they are writing the New Horde as a honorable band of brothers when they clearly stopped doing so at Vanilla.

"But Vol'j--"

Seriously?
It was written as an honorable band of brothers after Vanilla, and is still written as an honorable band of brothers whenever they are not being written as an army of badass conquerors (Case in point). That's precisely the problem. If indeed Sylvanas is going the Raid Boss route, I fully expect similar declarations of "The Horde is family" and "we shall never stand for this evil" to appear again - nevertheless the fact that "we" did stand for this evil more than once.

Last edited by Patrick_C; 04-17-2018 at 09:15 AM..
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  #4931  
Old 04-17-2018, 11:47 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I'll just point out: people have been shown to be willing to overlook inconsistencies in their heroes if the heroes still appear to stand for ideals that said people identify with. Trump ran away with the Republican electorate being probably the least Republican primary candidate in 2016 for this reason. Much of the antiwar left still revere Barack Obama as well. Those are only two examples, you can find the same trend with just about any political figure with any sort of following, but especially in those we hold up as icons.

I agree that many of Thrall's decisions as warchief didn't line up with his rhetoric and indeed led the Horde straight into the situation that Garrosh tried to claw them out of in the only way he knew how. He was a terrible administrator, but he was nevertheless a champion of a Horde that could live peacefully and honorably. I don't think it's fair to transmogrify his failings into the values that Thrall boosters are looking to restore. I think they want the good of a thing and believe they can excise the bad, just like anyone else with an ideological position.
They want the "good of a thing" and have their ideals being actually set in motion?

Fine, go for it.

The problem is when they vouch for a leader who supposedly represented said ideals, but in practice didn't do shit. And worse, not realizing it.

If people would prefer having a negligent demagogue in charge, rather than a genocidal maniac, then I must say said preferences ruin Warcraft.

Said preferences turn Warcraft into the "politically correctness" direction, and you simply can't have that without eviscerating the very core of Warcraft out of its own heart.

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Originally Posted by Gromak View Post
>Thrall is hypocrital demagogue
>Sylvanas is bae though
Yes, because I'm not saying that Sylvanas will make the Horde honorable again.

Unlike Thrall supporters...
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  #4932  
Old 04-17-2018, 02:42 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Now we're once again debating the many cliques in the Horde playerbase. Those who want to be Thrall's Horde; but with the mix of WC3 fans, Vanilla fans, and BC fans. Then we have those who want the old Horde; but either under Garrosh or Sylvanas.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #4933  
Old 04-17-2018, 05:15 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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In real life, no one is just one thing. I’ve been learning that people can be very complicated. It stands to reason that fictional factions can be as well. The Alliance is sadly uncomplicated. It would be nice to see some more depth for them.
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  #4934  
Old 04-17-2018, 05:46 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
In real life, no one is just one thing. I’ve been learning that people can be very complicated. It stands to reason that fictional factions can be as well. The Alliance is sadly uncomplicated. It would be nice to see some more depth for them.
The Horde isn't being written as complicated. It's written as flip flopping.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #4935  
Old 04-17-2018, 05:48 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
They want the "good of a thing" and have their ideals being actually set in motion?

Fine, go for it.

The problem is when they vouch for a leader who supposedly represented said ideals, but in practice didn't do shit. And worse, not realizing it.

If people would prefer having a negligent demagogue in charge, rather than a genocidal maniac, then I must say said preferences ruin Warcraft.

Said preferences turn Warcraft into the "politically correctness" direction, and you simply can't have that without eviscerating the very core of Warcraft out of its own heart.
I'm having trouble reading this as anything other than insistence that your peculiar preferences should override everyone else's.

Granted, I don't think it has to be zero sum. I think that stories can be constructed to give factions decent reasons for fighting each other, and I believe that Azeroth is large enough to accommodate the different fanbases that Warcraft has collected. So too is the Horde large enough to host different poles without one of them needing to "win" in some kind of half baked raid at the end of the expansion.

Should there be an aggressive base to the Horde? Yes. Should there be an honorable side to the Horde? Also yes. There is room to accommodate both if the writers feel so inclined. They just need to get a little more comfortable with complexity
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  #4936  
Old 04-17-2018, 05:55 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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Warfronts are fucking amazing.

Its like a mix of Heroes of the storm and Wc3 but with your character the gameplay mixes are like the stuff at the tomb isle in 7.2 with the resources, but with more stuff.
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  #4937  
Old 04-17-2018, 08:16 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I'm having trouble reading this as anything other than insistence that your peculiar preferences should override everyone else's.
Thrall's demagogy and negligence isn't a matter of personal preference.
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  #4938  
Old 04-17-2018, 09:33 PM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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Warfront end bosses vary (for example another video I saw had Muradin), but in this video it's Danath. He has a cool ability where he summons ghosts of his ancestors which sweep out across the field. Nice new armor too.
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  #4939  
Old 04-17-2018, 10:01 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
The Horde isn't being written as complicated. It's written as flip flopping.
It flip flops less than governments do when power passes from one party to another. Just like it’s player base, there are those who are in the Horde because the Horde is Family. They stick too each other. That’s more or less how races end up joining the Horde. Tauren if both the Highmountain and Bloodhoof tribes, Blood Elves, Trolls, Nightborne, all of these joined the Horde because the Horde stood by them when they needed it. On the other hand there are the ones who feel that if the Horde is to have any place in this world, it has to take it, because no one else will make room for them. No one represents this better than orcs and undead. One destroyed their own world and as such must fight for a place on this world, whether they deserve it or not; the other an abomination, the ultimate desecration of Alliance corpses. They know the Alliance will never forget, forgive, etc. If I say “you and me against the world” then it can easily mean “hey, no one likes us, but at least we’ve got each other;” it can also mean “to hell with the world.”

I would argue that Sylvanas actually understands both sides of the Horde. Garrosh would have had the rest of the Horde standing with him had he not turned on his own allies. I’m not as up to date with BfA alpha as I’d like, but I think I’d have heard if Sylvanas had made serious enemies among the rest of Horde leadership. Garrosh killed Cairne, insulted and then attempted to assassinate Vol’jin, and undermined Lor’rhemar and Sylvanas, and practically crucified Ji Firepaw. He created a police state. Sylvanas has done some horrible things, but thus far she’s only done them to the Horde’s enemies. I invite any evidence to the contrary. I would also point out that she was the one who brought in Blood Elves, and presides over all these new allied races joining up. She’s certainly not benign about it, but she knows the value of good allies.
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  #4940  
Old 04-18-2018, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterisk View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i52-kFCufMQ
Warfront end bosses vary (for example another video I saw had Muradin), but in this video it's Danath. He has a cool ability where he summons ghosts of his ancestors which sweep out across the field. Nice new armor too.
We are getting red footmen, that makes me happy. Also seeing scarlet crusade placeholder banners makes me think that we might get the needed recolor for the city.
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  #4941  
Old 04-19-2018, 01:17 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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We are getting red footmen, that makes me happy. Also seeing scarlet crusade placeholder banners makes me think that we might get the needed recolor for the city.
I doubt we will get a red recolor for a simple reason; it would clash too heavily with the theme of the classic Alliance-Horde conflict.
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  #4942  
Old 04-19-2018, 03:44 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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The war is going to end whenever Anduin and Saurfang decide to get rid of Sylvanas, and once shes gone pivot onto the old gods and end the fighting without any Capital sieges, or either side 'losing'.

Considering all the blackwashing theyve done of Sylvanas, such as what they did in Chronicles, shes probably dead. With Anduin and Saurfang apparently talking as we see in the intro scenario, Saurfang can just ask the guards to take him to Anduin and they do it, so obviously its a regular enough occurance. They have been pushing Anduin since forever as the Peace King, and now with a faction war going on and the best Orc not voiced by Metzen in Stormwind...
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So many deluded people think their rotting Waifuchief cares for them and their faction, when every scrap of internalized narrative has made it clear for years that to Sylvanas, the entirety of the Horde - including her own people - is nothing more than a shitton of bodies to stack between herself and her final death.

And all it takes is a tactically calculated "for the Horde" rallying the troops to make them all think "OMG she really does care!"
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  #4943  
Old 04-19-2018, 05:09 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I seriously hope (and somehow doubt, seeing how much animosity there is beyond Sylvanas) Sylvanas' fall from power won't be the end of the war. I am already on the verge of taking a more substantial break from World of Warcraft than until now (perhaps even a definite one), because at the moment, it seems we are getting another scapegoat conflict of little actual consequence instead of a massive more legitimate conflict full of dire consequence, and this would be the final nail in the coffin.
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  #4944  
Old 04-19-2018, 06:08 AM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Originally Posted by Crazyterran View Post
The war is going to end whenever Anduin and Saurfang decide to get rid of Sylvanas, and once shes gone pivot onto the old gods and end the fighting without any Capital sieges, or either side 'losing'.

Considering all the blackwashing theyve done of Sylvanas, such as what they did in Chronicles, shes probably dead. With Anduin and Saurfang apparently talking as we see in the intro scenario, Saurfang can just ask the guards to take him to Anduin and they do it, so obviously its a regular enough occurance. They have been pushing Anduin since forever as the Peace King, and now with a faction war going on and the best Orc not voiced by Metzen in Stormwind...
They actually removed that line in the most recent build. Now Saurfang just talks about how he will never rejoin the Horde as long as Sylvanas is Warchief and tells the rescue party to leave him and that Talanji and Zul are in the cell down the hall.
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  #4945  
Old 04-19-2018, 07:13 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Originally Posted by Crazyterran View Post
The war is going to end whenever Anduin and Saurfang decide to get rid of Sylvanas, and once shes gone pivot onto the old gods and end the fighting without any Capital sieges, or either side 'losing'.

Considering all the blackwashing theyve done of Sylvanas, such as what they did in Chronicles, shes probably dead. With Anduin and Saurfang apparently talking as we see in the intro scenario, Saurfang can just ask the guards to take him to Anduin and they do it, so obviously its a regular enough occurance. They have been pushing Anduin since forever as the Peace King, and now with a faction war going on and the best Orc not voiced by Metzen in Stormwind...
Unless the Boy King serves at the Master’s table.............. wait, what was I talking about?
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  #4946  
Old 04-19-2018, 09:06 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I seriously hope (and somehow doubt, seeing how much animosity there is beyond Sylvanas) Sylvanas' fall from power won't be the end of the war. I am already on the verge of taking a more substantial break from World of Warcraft than until now (perhaps even a definite one), because at the moment, it seems we are getting another scapegoat conflict of little actual consequence instead of a massive more legitimate conflict full of dire consequence, and this would be the final nail in the coffin.
Oh, Marthen, Marthen, Marthen... Did you really think, even for a second, there would actually be a "massive conflict full of dire consequences"? Really?

This "war" won't last two patches.
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  #4947  
Old 04-19-2018, 09:32 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I seriously hope (and somehow doubt, seeing how much animosity there is beyond Sylvanas) Sylvanas' fall from power won't be the end of the war. I am already on the verge of taking a more substantial break from World of Warcraft than until now (perhaps even a definite one), because at the moment, it seems we are getting another scapegoat conflict of little actual consequence instead of a massive more legitimate conflict full of dire consequence, and this would be the final nail in the coffin.
I have a suspicion that Blizzard won't repeat Garrosh's end here.
Sylvanas will die. But in a way that only pushes the Horde to keep fighting. However she ends up, the Horde will think of her death as a heroic sacrifice or a dishonored act of the Alliance. It will only make the war worse.
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  #4948  
Old 04-19-2018, 09:56 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I have a suspicion that Blizzard won't repeat Garrosh's end here.
Sylvanas will die. But in a way that only pushes the Horde to keep fighting. However she ends up, the Horde will think of her death as a heroic sacrifice or a dishonored act of the Alliance. It will only make the war worse.
That's something I've been hoping for and somewhat predicting from the beginning, but lately, the thought has been seriously faltering. I suppose how everybody's just going "we will switch to the Old Gods in about two patches, hah" is not helping either.
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  #4949  
Old 04-19-2018, 09:57 AM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Oh, Marthen, Marthen, Marthen... Did you really think, even for a second, there would actually be a "massive conflict full of dire consequences"? Really?

This "war" won't last two patches.
Technically we did get some dire consequences in the form losing Teldrassil and the Undercity. The Battle of Lordaeron scenario revealing that Undercity is completely "destroyed" and rendered permanently uninhabitable by blight means it's gone for good and that means Teldrassil isn't getting healed or restored either.

I do agree the war probably won't last very long. There's no way Blizzard would do Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0, unless they really follow through with those boy king whispers and have Anduin turn Old God crazy, but even then it would be the factions vs. the Old Gods instead of a faction war, since at least with Garrosh you could argue that he was using Old God stuff to his own ends.

Last edited by Insane Guy of Doom; 04-19-2018 at 10:03 AM..
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  #4950  
Old 04-19-2018, 10:55 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Whenever we end up fighting raid boss Sylvanas, it'll be a council fight with her void touched sisters Vereesa and Alleria. Their sons will steal the kill from the raiders.
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