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  #58051  
Old 08-24-2019, 12:57 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
Ultimately it is just an example, I am sure there are even better examples of the Democrats being dicks.

I think you need to look at these. In fact, more people should.

Just because the Democrats are bad doesn't make them anywhere NEAR -as bad- as the Republicans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_balance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel...rent's_law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View_from_nowhere

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
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  #58052  
Old 08-24-2019, 08:55 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I get it, it is easy to take the mid point between two camps and pretend you are enlightened compared to them. But quite likely you are an idiot or a moral coward. I do think taking a measured stance is best but that does not always or indeed often equal the exact middle...though it is usually somewhere between the two camps, trapped in their own extremism as they are. For example I think killing someone is wrong in almost all cases, in this instance the measured stance (in my opinion ofc) is far to the "thou shall not kill" side.

However in this particular case I think both your parties suck. And as someone who is socially conservative I definitely see many issues in the Democrats too. That said I refuse to go too deep into this debate since I am not American and reading article upon article and debating endlessly just to prove which side is worse when I don't much care about either.
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  #58053  
Old 08-25-2019, 11:18 AM
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I would love an easier system of voter registration that also requires valid ID when voting. Show me which party (or rogue politician) suggests that. I'm not being sarcastic.

As it is, I know that Texans without a driver license can obtain a free voter's ID. So I'm having trouble seeing injustice, so much as inconvenience.
Republicans in North Carolina looked up what sort of photo ID that certain demographics (i.e., blacks, whites, Latinos, etc.) were more likely to have and then tried to pick the most exclusionary form of photo ID that still permitted whites to vote. This was less than five years ago.
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  #58054  
Old 08-25-2019, 01:33 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Republicans in North Carolina looked up what sort of photo ID that certain demographics (i.e., blacks, whites, Latinos, etc.) were more likely to have and then tried to pick the most exclusionary form of photo ID that still permitted whites to vote. This was less than five years ago.
You need citations or they will -never- believe you.
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  #58055  
Old 08-26-2019, 03:26 AM
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You need citations or they will -never- believe you.
Did North Carolina Admit to Targeting Black Voters with a ‘Voter ID’ Law? Snopes rating "true."

Basically a lot of the "common sense" voter reforms that the Republican-controlled NC General Assembly were enacting were a smoking gun that the courts recognized (with public admission from NC Republicans) were targeting non-whites.
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  #58056  
Old 08-26-2019, 07:08 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Did North Carolina Admit to Targeting Black Voters with a ‘Voter ID’ Law? Snopes rating "true."

Basically a lot of the "common sense" voter reforms that the Republican-controlled NC General Assembly were enacting were a smoking gun that the courts recognized (with public admission from NC Republicans) were targeting non-whites.
Sure, that's the half about Republicans being bad. Do we have the half about Democrats being good? About suggesting that more forms of identification be allowable, instead of suggesting that no ID whatsoever should be required?

I mean... let's assume the Republicans are pure evil. Do the Democrats have a plan to stop wicked Republicans from stealing another person's identity or co-opting a deceased person's in order to vote falsely? I don't care if it's a rare thing. A lot of things are rare until they suddenly become a trend. I don't leave my front door open just because nobody's broken in before.

Kak, you're here, right? Aren't you worried that the mustache-twirling Republicans are plotting to do the very thing they're pretending to be concerned about Democrats doing? Shouldn't our democracy protect itself from that?

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 08-26-2019 at 07:13 AM..
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  #58057  
Old 08-26-2019, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Sure, that's the half about Republicans being bad. Do we have the half about Democrats being good? About suggesting that more forms of identification be allowable, instead of suggesting that no ID whatsoever should be required?

I mean... let's assume the Republicans are pure evil. Do the Democrats have a plan to stop wicked Republicans from stealing another person's identity or co-opting a deceased person's in order to vote falsely? I don't care if it's a rare thing. A lot of things are rare until they suddenly become a trend. I don't leave my front door open just because nobody's broken in before.
I am less concerned about narratives of Republicans bad vs. Democrats good than I am with the reality that a number of voter ID laws (particularly in the South) have been used in a discriminatory manner meant to serve as roadblocks to non-whites such that what you consider a "minor inconvenience" is actually a racial injustice that affects you less.

Regarding Voter Fraud: You may not care that it is a rare thing, with most studies on the subject having found that it is exceedingly rare. It is an exaggerated problem. Allegations of voter fraud are far more common than actual voter fraud. You are more likely to be struck by lightning or report seeing a UFO than voter fraud actually being committed in the United States. But could we take steps to address it even if it is rare? Sure. But why presume then that Voter ID is the only or necessary solution? And does it even properly solve the issue? Studies have found that most voter fraud occurs via absentee or mail ballots. How would requiring voter ID at the ballot address that?
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  #58058  
Old 08-26-2019, 10:27 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
I am less concerned about narratives of Republicans bad vs. Democrats good than I am with the reality that a number of voter ID laws (particularly in the South) have been used in a discriminatory manner meant to serve as roadblocks to non-whites such that what you consider a "minor inconvenience" is actually a racial injustice that affects you less.
So in Texas, what's the problem with this? https://www.dps.texas.gov/driverlicense/electionid.htm

What's the racial injustice that affects me less, here? I have to go to the DMV. I have to fill out forms. What's the problem with a freely obtainable ID?

And then I read this article: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/08/23/p...ing/index.html

It reminds me that people without valid IDs could even get around it by signing a formal declaration, no ID required. But it also tells me that judges found THIS is discriminatory, because:

Quote:
She wrote that using a declaration trades one obstacle for another one that threatens severe penalties for perjury.

"While the (declaration) requires only a signature and other presumably available means of identification, the history of voter intimidation counsels against accepting SB 5's solution as an appropriate or complete remedy," Ramos writes in her decision to issue permanent injunctions against both measures.

Both laws discriminate against many blacks and Latinos, she says.
That's ridiculous. They're saying it's discriminatory to make someone affirm their identity in general. Because it's harder for blacks and latinos to sign a piece of paper agreeing that they are who they say they are. Do I have that right?
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  #58059  
Old 08-26-2019, 10:28 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Baron did you not... read the link he put about South Carolina?
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  #58060  
Old 08-26-2019, 10:48 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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The Reps may have entered into that with bad intentions, but the answer should not be "dismantle everything" but instead make it fairer. How about making all state issued photo IDs valid, that is fair. Or the thing Baron mentioned.

As a European I still think it is just common sense to have an ID when voting.
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  #58061  
Old 08-26-2019, 11:01 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Baron did you not... read the link he put about South Carolina?
North Carolina, yes. Stopping Sunday voting because it was generally black Democrats voting on that day. Terrible.

My question was for Texas: how exactly is it racist to require someone to sign an official declaration affirming they are the person they claim to be, as Judge Ramos stated?

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 08-26-2019 at 11:43 AM..
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  #58062  
Old 08-27-2019, 03:30 AM
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The Reps may have entered into that with bad intentions, but the answer should not be "dismantle everything" but instead make it fairer. How about making all state issued photo IDs valid, that is fair. Or the thing Baron mentioned.
If they control the legislature, do you think that the bad intentions will just stop because they were defeated? Do you think that it is reasonable to expect that these "fairer" forms of providing ID would likely transpire under such legislative conditions? This, for the record, is not the only point where North Carolina Republicans have discriminated against non-whites when it came to placing burdens for voting and the like.

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As a European I still think it is just common sense to have an ID when voting.
Do you live in a country with 100 years of Jim Crow laws and people still resentful that they were struck down?

I get your point, as an American expat living in Europe, but it's an apples and oranges situation.

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
That's ridiculous. They're saying it's discriminatory to make someone affirm their identity in general. Because it's harder for blacks and latinos to sign a piece of paper agreeing that they are who they say they are. Do I have that right?
Remember literacy tests?

But you are not just required to simply sign a piece of paper, but you must also bring additional paperwork to supplement signing that "piece of paper," which a person may or may not have when going to vote. For example, it is incredibly common - as per what we saw with North Carolina - that black people are more likely to vote on Sunday. Why? Because it is frequently connected with church and religious life, and sometimes they would organize buses for voting. Would you carry those additional required paper forms with you to church?

Do you think that it is some sort of random coincidence that the states that tend to have the most requirements for Voter ID typically occur in the (mostly) Republican-controlled South where old Jim Crow used to reign supreme?

Last edited by Genesis; 08-27-2019 at 03:33 AM..
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  #58063  
Old 08-27-2019, 06:40 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Do you think that it is some sort of random coincidence that the states that tend to have the most requirements for Voter ID typically occur in the (mostly) Republican-controlled South where old Jim Crow used to reign supreme?
Is that even true? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote...e_requirements

Quote:
The NCSL categorizes state-level voter ID laws as follows:[21]

Photo ID required (strict): Georgia, Indiana, Kansas, Mississippi, North Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, and Wisconsin.

Photo ID requested (non-strict): Arkansas, Alabama, Florida, Hawaii, Idaho, Louisiana, Michigan, Rhode Island, South Dakota, and Texas.

Non-photo ID required (strict): Arizona, North Dakota, and Ohio.

Non-photo ID requested (non-strict): Alaska, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Iowa, Kentucky, Missouri, Montana, New Hampshire, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Utah, Washington, and West Virginia.

No ID required to vote at ballot box: California, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Nebraska, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Vermont, Wyoming, and Washington, D.C.
Democrat states surely dominate the "no ID required" category. But there's a more even spread in the others. The Northern parts even have a slight lead in the "non-photo ID required (strict)" section.

We have all that trash on North Carolina, but ol' first-to-secede South Carolina is in the "non-photo ID requested (non-strict)" camp.

EDIT: According to that wiki article, the first state to have a strict photo ID law was Indiana in 2006.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 08-27-2019 at 07:11 AM..
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  #58064  
Old 08-27-2019, 07:31 AM
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Is that even true?
Most of the states requiring strict voter ID are in the South. Most states requesting voter ID are in the South. Don't worry. I've seen that map before as well.

Quote:
We have all that trash on North Carolina, but ol' first-to-secede South Carolina is in the "non-photo ID requested (non-strict)" camp.
So the overall trend can't be true because First-to-Secede has not yet enacted strict voter ID?

Quote:
EDIT: According to that wiki article, the first state to have a strict photo ID law was Indiana in 2006.
Indiana? As in the South's obtrusive middle-finger that extends into the midwest?
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  #58065  
Old 08-27-2019, 10:38 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Most of the states requiring strict voter ID are in the South. Most states requesting voter ID are in the South. Don't worry. I've seen that map before as well.
No, it's about even. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_United_States

States requiring strict voter ID:
6 Southern
5 Non-Southern

States requesting voter ID:
11 Southern
13 Non-Southern

If you combined this into total states requiring or requesting voter ID, that's 17 Southern and 18 Non-Southern.

Strict Voter ID:
* Georgia, Kansas, Mississippi, North Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia
* Indiana, Wisconsin, Arizona, North Dakota, Ohio

Requesting Voter ID:
* Arkansas, Alabama, Florida, Louisiana, Texas, Delaware, Kentucky, Missouri, Oklahoma, South Carolina, West Virginia
* Hawaii, Idaho, Michigan, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Alaska, Colorado, Connecticut, Iowa, Montana, New Hampshire, Utah, Washington


Quote:
Indiana? As in the South's obtrusive middle-finger that extends into the midwest?
And Arizona and Hawaii are geographically far south, so I guess none of this means anything.

But seriously. Surely not ALL of those states are having their voter ID laws overturned by courts. Can't we look at a select few, and model ID laws off of those? We have 35 states requiring or requesting ID, and then 16 states/district that don't. This isn't a Southern anomaly.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 08-27-2019 at 10:42 AM..
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  #58066  
Old 08-27-2019, 03:27 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Oh, look. This is happening. Again.
https://www.facebook.com/sally.k.wal...4625407917316/

For this without access to fb videos: https://streamable.com/dlz8e
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  #58067  
Old 08-27-2019, 04:12 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
Oh, look. This is happening. Again.
https://www.facebook.com/sally.k.wal...4625407917316/

For this without access to fb videos: https://streamable.com/dlz8e
So, it's Mississippi's primary runoff between two Republicans: Lt. Governor Reeves and former State Supreme Court Justice Waller. They really should've saved their rigged machines for when they faced their Democratic opponent.

Maybe da South is just incompetent.
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  #58068  
Old 08-27-2019, 04:27 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
So, it's Mississippi's primary runoff between two Republicans: Lt. Governor Reeves and former State Supreme Court Justice Waller. They really should've saved their rigged machines for when they faced their Democratic opponent.

Maybe da South is just incompetent.
Don't worry, they'll use the same machines. Republicans are fighting tooth-and-nail to prevent basic election security measures from being enacted.
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  #58069  
Old 08-28-2019, 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I suppose that I should clarify: Strict Voter ID.

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But seriously. Surely not ALL of those states are having their voter ID laws overturned by courts. Can't we look at a select few, and model ID laws off of those? We have 35 states requiring or requesting ID, and then 16 states/district that don't. This isn't a Southern anomaly.
It depends since not every state had Jim Crow laws. Not every state sought to discriminate against voters based on race and ethnicity. And accessibility to voter ID will vary between states. History and context invariably matters, BaronGrackle, far more than your feeble attempts to create false equivalences.
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  #58070  
Old 08-28-2019, 04:01 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I suppose that I should clarify: Strict Voter ID.
Alright then; 6 Southern and 5 Non-Southern. Scary majority.

But why pretend that the non-strict voter ID states don't exist? Why not start by emulating some of them?

Quote:
It depends since not every state had Jim Crow laws. Not every state sought to discriminate against voters based on race and ethnicity. And accessibility to voter ID will vary between states. History and context invariably matters, BaronGrackle, far more than your feeble attempts to create false equivalences.
If your line of reasoning here had any merit, any merit whatsoever, it would suggest that every state should have voter ID laws except for states that had Jim Crow laws in the past.

EDIT: "False equivalence", you say. It's not about saying our nation IS equivalent to the rest of the civilized world. It's about aspiring to shift the situation so that we can BE equivalent.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 08-28-2019 at 04:14 AM..
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  #58071  
Old 08-28-2019, 04:09 AM
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Pardon me for my outsider question, but what exactly prevents the US from implementing personal identity cards (also known as citizen cards, national identity cards, and so on) like so many countries across the globe have?
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  #58072  
Old 08-28-2019, 04:16 AM
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Pardon me for my outsider question, but what exactly prevents the US from implementing personal identity cards (also known as citizen cards, national identity cards, and so on) like so many countries across the globe have?
Mainly a lack of desire for people who may vote against their party to have voting credentials.

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Alright then; 6 Southern and 5 Non-Southern. Scary majority.
I am doing a terrible job of clarifying, which is leaving all sorts of egg on my face. I meant strict voter photo ID. And while there are a number of states that have non-strict photo ID, the tendency has been for a Republican push for more stringent photo ID requirements. But as I previously said, photo ID does little to stop voter fraud, since that mostly occurs among mail ballots.

Quote:
But why pretend that the non-strict voter ID states don't exist? Why not start by emulating some of them?
I would not be opposed to voter ID if I were confident in the ability for states to employ it fairly and accessibly for all eligible citizens; however, when I have experienced my own state government not do so on repeated occassions and in a discriminatory manner, then it erodes a lot of trust.

Quote:
If your line of reasoning here had any merit, any merit whatsoever, it would suggest that every state should have voter ID laws except for states that had Jim Crow laws in the past.
I'm not following you here.

Quote:
EDIT: "False equivalence", you say. It's not about saying our nation IS equivalent to the rest of the civilized world. It's about aspiring to shift the situation so that we can BE equivalent.
More of a false equivalence regarding the situations of the North and South being equivalent when it comes to voting issues, as the South is still plagued with the lingering spirit of Jim Crow.

Last edited by Genesis; 08-28-2019 at 04:27 AM..
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  #58073  
Old 08-28-2019, 05:28 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Mainly a lack of desire for people who may vote against their party to have voting credentials.
Are there Democrats who want to make ID more accessible? [/actually asking]

There are plenty of non-suffrage related reasons for it. ID requirements are everywhere in life.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 08-28-2019 at 05:49 AM..
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  #58074  
Old 08-28-2019, 07:04 AM
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Are there Democrats who want to make ID more accessible? [/actually asking]
Sadly for us both, I don't have every Democratic lawmaker's policy on voter ID memorized, but there are probably easy ways for you to find out. I would not be opposed to the expansion of voter ID. However, I would make it about a wider range of statewide policies and not just "cuz voting."

Aside: I suspect that the current-future trend will be digitally integrating various forms of ID into a single ID card. I also suspect that the US will be slower with implementing this than many other countries.

Quote:
There are plenty of non-suffrage related reasons for it. ID requirements are everywhere in life.
The issue is, however, that currently voting-eligible whites are disproportionately more likely to have photo ID or government-issued ID than voting-eligible non-whites.

Let's consider something. If you were a gambling man, which ethnicity in the US would you think is most likely to have a driver's license photo ID? Which ethnicities do you think would be less likely to have a driver's license? And how about passports? Gun licenses with photo ID?

As we are both white men over 30, then I suspect that this affects us less.

Last edited by Genesis; 08-28-2019 at 07:26 AM..
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  #58075  
Old 08-28-2019, 08:25 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I would not be opposed to the expansion of voter ID. However, I would make it about a wider range of statewide policies and not just "cuz voting."
I mean, definitely. You need an ID to cash checks, have a bank account, pick up prescription drugs, buy alcohol, travel by air, collect welfare, and that's just off the top of my head. I have a pretty blue collar job right now, but we have to renew our safety testing every few months... and we show our ID in the process. My co-workers come from nearly all races, and all of them have a driver license (or presumably some equivalent)... driving is sort of required for living in suburban SE Texas... so it's really hard for me to conceptualize the racism. The idea of people in the U.S. being able to function without an ID is sort of a major culture shock to me because of how often I use it.

They shouldn't HAVE to function without one.

EDIT: Everyone has a Social Security card, right? It doesn't have a photo, but still. At this point I'm not opposed to non-photo ID laws.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 08-28-2019 at 09:04 AM..
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