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  #26  
Old 02-15-2015, 09:25 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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It was a tragedy about the downfall of Lordaeron, it was an Alliance narrative.

It just ended badly.
Okay, I can accept that.

The bottom line is that the tragedy of the Alliance campaign served as a part of the overall narrative in RoC, which ended with the Scourge being defeated.

So if a theoretical Forsaken campaign is going to end with Sylvanas getting her teeth kicked in, it has to be as part of a larger narrative where eventually the player has a final victory of some kind. A campaign narrative as a standalone device, however, really shouldn't be go the tragedy route, because that just doesn't mesh with why people are playing the game.
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Old 02-15-2015, 11:05 PM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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It was a tragedy about the downfall of Lordaeron, it was a Horde narrative.

It just ended badly.
Lordaeron is Forsaken now. Forsaken is Horde.

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  #28  
Old 02-16-2015, 12:31 AM
Triceron Triceron is offline

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Yes because an RTS campaign can't end in a complete and utter defeat, that never happens. Examples: Human Campaign in Warcraft 1, Alliance campaign in RoC.
Human Campaign in Warcraft 1 doesn't end in defeat, you actually win the game. It was decided in the sequel that the war was lost to the Horde, so that's a big difference.

You play as Arthas' group who is intentionally undermining his fathers orders. Alliance Campaign in ROC was an complete victory over your enemies. Defeat would imply you were killed by the Scourge and failed all your missions.

Since Sylvanas came into power of the Forsaken on her own and is not actively being contested for its leadership, it would be a pretty sad affair to have a campaign designed to completely undermine her. Only an idiot would... Oh hell, I must've forgotten who I was talking to!
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Old 02-16-2015, 10:45 AM
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If the campaign's main protagonist was not Sylvanas herself but some underling of hers who's not too crazy about her, it could still end with the underling turning against her. Cf. Starcraft 1 Terran campaign when you switch sides twice.
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Old 02-19-2015, 02:41 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
The only plausible campaign for the Forsaken is one in which all Forsaken are killed down to the last man and woman.

The best Warcraft Legends Manga was when the Scarlet Crusaders dragged a Forsaken and a Blood Elf out of a house and shot them both in the head. That owned and I wish to see it repeated on a massive scale.
Okay, I laughed out loud, that was awesome.

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  #31  
Old 02-20-2015, 12:27 PM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
Human Campaign in Warcraft 1 doesn't end in defeat, you actually win the game. It was decided in the sequel that the war was lost to the Horde, so that's a big difference.

You play as Arthas' group who is intentionally undermining his fathers orders. Alliance Campaign in ROC was an complete victory over your enemies. Defeat would imply you were killed by the Scourge and failed all your missions.
That's a good point. "Defeat" and "Happy Ending" aren't necessarily related (though, arguably, it was a Happy Ending... for Ner'zhul).

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Since Sylvanas came into power of the Forsaken on her own and is not actively being contested for its leadership, it would be a pretty sad affair to have a campaign designed to completely undermine her. Only an idiot would... Oh hell, I must've forgotten who I was talking to!
Umm, I don't think it's that off-base. In fact, providing characters with conflicts that strike to the heart of that character's motivations/creed/ethos is in fact a particularly power literary technique.

I'm not saying I'm all for it; I'm pretty against all the little "sub-characters" brought about by WoW, so in my little post-TFT utopia I have no idea who would be an internal competitor to Sylvanas' reign, without creating a character out of whole cloth for the job.

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If the campaign's main protagonist was not Sylvanas herself but some underling of hers who's not too crazy about her, it could still end with the underling turning against her. Cf. Starcraft 1 Terran campaign when you switch sides twice.
Ooooooh, good example. Man, that stuff is hilarious.

And actually, I rather like the idea of 'distancing' the player from Sylvanas, sort of enshrining her as legend or just 'aloof'... Perhaps an analog to King Terenas...?

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The thing I liked the most about the RTS campaigns was them not being bound to status quo. In the end, you almost always had some major shifts in power. So if there was to be a Forsaken RTS campaign, it'd have to deal with Sylvanas's ambitions to conquer all of Lordaeron, and those ambitions potentially blowing up in her face.
I agree with the "shifts in power", but I don't see how the Forsaken must necessarily be beaten up for it. If anything, since we already saw them claw their way to survival & independence, having them create an empire isn't too far from "upsetting the status quo". That, and/or facing some kind of internal 'civil war' conflict which ultimately tears them in two (thus juxtaposing their initial single-minded 'rise to power'). Or something.

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Using the WC1/WC2 model of campaign design doesn't really feel like it floats anymore, because Blizzard ended up having to choose one of the endings to advance and the other story was non-canonical. The SC/WC3 model of having the racial campaigns played in sequence means that there is a single determined story that advances instead.
Yeah, I never played Wc1 & only played Wc2 once years and years ago... And it always seemed weird to me that a whole "half" of the game could be just thrown out as non-canon. Like, I get it, it's cool; having unresolved conflict, playing favorites, etc. But I much prefer the Wc3/Sc1/etc system; a connected, flowing & building narrative that moves between the factions.

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... The Alliance campaign in RoC was centered on Arthas pursuing his goals, rather than being an Alliance narrative.
See, that's an interesting point of note, and something I'm not sure is entirely a good thing... On the one hand, a story is necessarily about characters, and/or does better (i.e. more audience-relatable) when it's about specific people. So the recent 'way-of-doing-things', focusing these planetary/galactic conflicts on certain 'movers & shakers' makes sense. It's cool.

On the other, I think a certain sense of the grandeur is lost (both on players & for the universe of the game(s) itself) when we move the scope from the great, overarching nationalistic narrative. Like I said, my time with Wc2 was brief, but I loved how BIG the war felt, and how much a part of it I felt. With Wc3, take something massive & emotional & exciting & BIG, like, say, the genocide of the High Elves... And it was very personal. All that focus on Arthas & Kel'thuzad, and I could hardly believe that we had "slain nearly 90% of all the High Elves", as the campaign informed us. I was like "what? I just killed a few outposts & one big city? SRSLY?"

(now granted, I've had to take into consideration that, as the game is designed, the "armies" are really more like representations; 5 Crypt Fiends would not be a serious threat in any sense of the word (storyline-wise), but they are in terms of gameplay. So the "outposts" were, likely, 'major forward operating bases', and the "city" was (as it says it was, & despite the underwhelming number of buildings) the 'prime capital city' of the Elves)

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The only plausible campaign with the current Forsaken would basically be a remake of the Scourge campaign in Warcraft 3. Except, Sylvanas doesn't have the evil sword to "justify" her actions.
Lol. Just an evil bow & arrows.

Although that would be a really fascinating twist, to sort of have Kerrigan Sylvanas thrust herself onto a path much like Arthas' in Wc3 RoC Scourge. Like, focus on "you become what you hate" kinda irony. Oo-hoo.

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The only plausible campaign for the Forsaken is one in which all Forsaken are killed down to the last man and woman.
And children. Don't forget children!

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I wanted to call out this particular piece because I think it really bears mention: the Forsaken ultimately have no viable conflict in a post-Scourge world. I don't think I've seen any kind of duality in their perspective since the implication Putress and Varimathras were put down, especially since Sylvanas decided to own the Blight and weaponize it in Gilneas.

The Forsaken came together out of a hunger for vengeance against Arthas because Arthas killed them and enslaved them. They came to resent the living because the living generally didn't discriminate between them and the Scourge. So with the Scourge out of the way, the Forsaken really only have one problem, which is all the living people who still want to see them put down because they're undead.
Ok, I agree... But is this "post-Scourge"? I've been operating under the impression that this was an RTS-style campaign done when RTS was still a thing, i.e. pre-WoW Wc3.

And even in WoW, something something Bolvar, something something "there must always be a Lich King"... Aren't the Scourge forever in play? If so, there will always be a malefactor.

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They don't have any internal conflicts, because no one speaks against Sylvanas. Not because they fear her, but because there really doesn't seem to be anyone who disagrees with her. There are no dissenting voices within the Forsaken. Which ultimately sucks, because it means that they're all pretty much unified in wanting to kill the living.
Ah dannae, this is the point at which I'd probably diverge. The campaigns don't present anyone as having a dissenting opinion from her, probably mostly due to the constraints of the game (i.e. too many characters to focus on, the Forsaken are still basically just Scourge offshoots (Ghouls & Obs. Statues & Destroyers, no Wyrms or Necromancers or Abominations) with no characterization except for Sylvanas & her banshee minions & Varimathras). Moreover, she is their 'savior'; the one who led them to freedom. Who would fight against that?

However, that being said I'd venture that once the Forsaken become more established & entrenched, you'd start to see some interesting intra-racial conflicts develop.

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow
What all of that does is make me wonder if it would work to do a TFT-like campaign where you switch between Sylvanas assaulting Andorhal to squeeze the Alliance out of Lordaeron, and Mograine trying to pacify Scourge remnants and butting heads with Sylvanas as a result.
With what you've described, that sounds pretty good. I don't really know who Mograine is, though.

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I don't think there's really any room for it. There weren't many worgen outside of Gilneas in a space that the Forsaken had access to, and it seems like only Arthas was able to raise the Sons of Arugal, since that's the explanation for worgen Death Knights.

Moreover, I really wouldn't want to take the worgen away from the Alliance to any extent. Yeah, maybe Blizzard's not really using them as the Alliance's dark side, but that doesn't mean the Forsaken gets to have all of the creatures of the night.
I'm not worried about "taking them from the Alliance" at all. Again, for my purposes this is all pre-WoW (and, sort of, pretending WoW never existed). But the rest of what you said is cogent; I just wanted someone who knows better than me if there was a good reason for it (since "evil wolf-warriors of the night" fit pretty well into a variety of shadowy, evil factions).

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I feel like you wouldn't see them using Forsaken "peasants," which makes me think they'd have something else doing that work for them. I don't know why, but undead kobolds come to mind.
Meh, I can see it easily enough (both artistically and stylistically), but I can see why you'd want something else.

(Goes back to the drawing board for a secretive, Troll-killing Forsaken assassin)

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That does break open a greater discussion about what kind of units a post-Scourge Forsaken has got. Because we don't see the Forsaken using necromancy to raise slave labor.... unless I'm wrong and that HAS happened somewhere.

...

I'll need to come back at this when I've got more brainpower to dedicate to it, but the bottom line is that how you want to characterize the Forsaken is going to govern what kind of units you give them. If people really want the zerg-like Scourge with all of the cult of the damned and Nerubian elements included, then that's just not a model that's really going to work with Sylvanas and her Forsaken.
Well, yes. That's kind of the crux. "Do Forsaken have Necromancy"? If we are informed through WoW, the answer is "No(t until the Valkyr)"; that was kinda the whole issue, that they had no way of raising their folks. Enter WotLK.
If we are informed purely through Wc3('s game mechanics)... "Mostly No, but a Bit Unclear". I say that because (similar to the Alliance campaign where you played as just Elves, no Dwarves/Humans (something I actually really liked, BTW)), Sylvanas notably operated with the lack of the typical Scourge power-units; no Abominations, Frost Wyrms, or Necromancers (IIRC).

This was done, I think, to emphasize not only her general rag-tag/weakness at the time, but also differentiate her forces better (as we first got a hold of the new Obsidian Statues, and later got to use the sick Destroyers; both new units for the Scourge were "for" Sylvanas, if you will).

So at first it's like "NO!"... But then, what about Sylvanas' "Black Arrow", her skill du jour? Raising skeletons from the slain with black magic? If that's not Necromancy, what is?

Now, we can just "glide" over that little bit & stick with "No", if you want. I might just. It allows for a real interesting racial "identity" that is diametrically-opposed to the Scourge (good since we want to differentiate them); instead of Zerg-like masses of cheap, fodder units, you have fewer, more expensive but powerful units in limited amounts that you desperately want to keep alive (i.e. Protoss).

But yeah, exactly. I look forward to your thoughts.
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  #32  
Old 02-21-2015, 10:39 PM
Triceron Triceron is offline

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Umm, I don't think it's that off-base. In fact, providing characters with conflicts that strike to the heart of that character's motivations/creed/ethos is in fact a particularly power literary technique.

I'm not saying I'm all for it; I'm pretty against all the little "sub-characters" brought about by WoW, so in my little post-TFT utopia I have no idea who would be an internal competitor to Sylvanas' reign, without creating a character out of whole cloth for the job.
Well that's what we got with Tyrande being undermined by Maiev. But Tyrande was already established in a position of long-standing power, so a power struggle where we have a new comer who openly contests the leader is interesting.

Sylvanas, right after the events of TFT, is a total rookie leader. Sylvanas hasn't been established as a world power, she's only established control of the Forsaken, a yet-untested group of undead. At this point she's comparable to Arthas at the end of RoC. They're both simply established as the new rookie who's taken the world by storm. TFT would have been odd if it was a story about overthrowing Arthas, when he just got the title of 'King Arthas'. TFT's story was about Illidan trying to overthrow the Lich King, and Arthas champions the Scourge in the process.

Sylvanas that we see in WoW now is a different story, since we've seen her as leader for over 10 years now. It would make sense if we have a story that confronts her now. Not at the end of TFT/beginning of WoW when she's just obtained that control.

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  #33  
Old 02-23-2015, 12:21 PM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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...

Sylvanas that we see in WoW now is a different story, since we've seen her as leader for over 10 years now. It would make sense if we have a story that confronts her now. Not at the end of TFT/beginning of WoW when she's just obtained that control.
Ah dannae, man. I think an equally-moving story can be told regardless of where in her life it takes place. It might be a different story; like you said, a power struggle after several years of control could be a bit more interesting than one at the beginning), but there's plenty of material that could happen at the beginning. Pretty much anything under the head of "solidifying her rule", "riding on laurels", or "crippling self-doubt" would work...
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Old 02-23-2015, 02:12 PM
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Ah dannae, man. I think an equally-moving story can be told regardless of where in her life it takes place. It might be a different story; like you said, a power struggle after several years of control could be a bit more interesting than one at the beginning), but there's plenty of material that could happen at the beginning. Pretty much anything under the head of "solidifying her rule", "riding on laurels", or "crippling self-doubt" would work...
I'm not really super-interested in doing a "what if WoW never happened" kinda story. Yes, admittedly, running with the constraint of what Blizzard's established in WoW makes the exercise more difficult, but if I'm going to cut something out of whole cloth I might as well not even shackle myself to someone else's IP.

My goal with doing a current (as in WoW-inclusive) Forsaken RTS campaign is to figure out how to communicate some kind of interesting narrative for the faction, since they have got a lot of big setpiece moments n the post-WC3 franchise (the Wrath Gate, Sylvanas' short story) but not really too much in the way of character development.
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Old 02-23-2015, 09:29 PM
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That mainly comes from the lack of characters that represent the Forsaken faction as a whole. If you're looking to make a narrative for the Forsaken, you'll need characters that develop over the course of the story. There's potential in using existing characters, but you'll probably be better of making completely new ones.

It doesn't help that we haven't gotten any novels or extended lore that deal with the forsaken outside of Sylvanas. She's the only Forsaken character who has a voice.
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Old 02-24-2015, 05:38 AM
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I'm not really super-interested in doing a "what if WoW never happened" kinda story. Yes, admittedly, running with the constraint of what Blizzard's established in WoW makes the exercise more difficult, but if I'm going to cut something out of whole cloth I might as well not even shackle myself to someone else's IP.
Dangit, you're right... *rethinking life & goals*

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My goal with doing a current (as in WoW-inclusive) Forsaken RTS campaign is to figure out how to communicate some kind of interesting narrative for the faction...
Alright, so what are some of your thoughts? We've bandied about for a while now.
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Old 02-24-2015, 02:27 PM
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That mainly comes from the lack of characters that represent the Forsaken faction as a whole. If you're looking to make a narrative for the Forsaken, you'll need characters that develop over the course of the story. There's potential in using existing characters, but you'll probably be better of making completely new ones.

It doesn't help that we haven't gotten any novels or extended lore that deal with the forsaken outside of Sylvanas. She's the only Forsaken character who has a voice.
I suspect that this is because Blizzard might not be sure how to advance the narrative for them either. The Forsaken have always served a particular fantasy (the darkened outcast who is misunderstood by the world and consequently resents that world in turn) but growing past that might break the fantasy and leave players who are invested in that identity out in the cold.

So there's no way to introduce new characters for the faction if they're not going to do anything different. Lilian Voss is, ultimately, a singular expression of a rebellious undead who hungers for vengeance, but aside from her choosing to stay rogue instead of being part of the Forsaken, there's nothing that differentiates her from the faction otherwise. And that's the only notable character that's been added to the Forsaken who hasn't been killed off.

Which is what brings me to consider that Mograine and the Ebon Blade might be the way to go.

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Alright, so what are some of your thoughts? We've bandied about for a while now.
Quick review for Triumvirate: Darion Mograine is the faction leader for the player death knights, and with his organization, the Ebon Blade, went to Northrend with the Argent Crusade to shut down the Scourge for good. There's a lot more to his backstory, but the bottom line is that he's a death knight who led other death knights in rebellion against Arthas after the Lich King intended to sacrifice them to bait out Tirion Fordring.

Sylvanas and Mograine both responded to the Scourge by seeking vengeance, but the difference is how they characterized themselves. Sylvanas never talked about anything but vengeance, and attempted to end herself when that vengeance was satisfied. Mograine sounds repentant, as though it wasn't enough to just bring down the Lich King, but that the Ebon Blade needed to perform penance for what they'd wrought as members of the Scourge.

So if you pit Mograine penitence against Sylvanas' loathing for the living, it's a way to use existing characters and have them present two sides of the same story: "whither the damned when their king lies silent?"

... more on this later, I've got some business to attend to.
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Old 02-25-2015, 11:08 AM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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Quick review for Triumvirate: Darion Mograine is the faction leader for the player death knights, and with his organization, the Ebon Blade, went to Northrend with the Argent Crusade to shut down the Scourge for good. There's a lot more to his backstory, but the bottom line is that he's a death knight who led other death knights in rebellion against Arthas after the Lich King intended to sacrifice them to bait out Tirion Fordring.

Sylvanas and Mograine both responded to the Scourge by seeking vengeance, but the difference is how they characterized themselves. Sylvanas never talked about anything but vengeance, and attempted to end herself when that vengeance was satisfied. Mograine sounds repentant, as though it wasn't enough to just bring down the Lich King, but that the Ebon Blade needed to perform penance for what they'd wrought as members of the Scourge.

So if you pit Mograine penitence against Sylvanas' loathing for the living, it's a way to use existing characters and have them present two sides of the same story: "whither the damned when their king lies silent?"
Hrmrmrmr.... That's really well-put. I must admit, while I'm not a huge fan of incorporating WoW-esque elements (i.e. the Ebon Blade, Death Knight faction, etc), I really love the way you've described Mograine.

Man, where'd you get that last line?? Genius.




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..."whither the damned when their king lies silent?"...
Day-ung.
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Old 02-25-2015, 01:24 PM
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Hrmrmrmr.... That's really well-put. I must admit, while I'm not a huge fan of incorporating WoW-esque elements (i.e. the Ebon Blade, Death Knight faction, etc), I really love the way you've described Mograine.

Man, where'd you get that last line?? Genius.

Day-ung.
I wax poetic at times. ^_^

To the point thought, I guess that's where I diverge from a lot of folks on this forum: I'm totally about being inclusive of WoW as a part of the franchise, even with how the overall story has really been warped to fit into that paradigm. I don't like using "warped" because it implies a negative change, but the bottom line is that the shape of the story in the RTS games is different from how it's been done in the MMO, and Blizzard doesn't seem to be showing any sense of reversing that.

I think the RTS games were better at selling a character-oriented narrative, which is why Thrall, Sylvanas, Arthas, Illidan, and Tyrande are all fan-favorite characters while Garrosh, Varian, Moira and Anduin are not really as well-regarded. Hence, a core element of my desire to try to build up my skills with crafting RTS campaigns is to figure out how to tell the stories of some of these WoW-exclusive characters by using the same medium of an RTS campaign.

That gets back to the initial confusion I ran into when I started this thread: is there a way to tell an interesting story about the Forsaken when Blizzard's done so little with them in WoW?
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  #40  
Old 02-27-2015, 05:48 AM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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I wax poetic at times. ^_^
Wait, are you saying you made that up? I totally thought it was from Hamlet or something, but couldn't find out.

That's sick. If I use that, I will credit you.

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow
To the point thought, I guess that's where I diverge from a lot of folks on this forum: I'm totally about being inclusive of WoW as a part of the franchise, even with how the overall story has really been warped to fit into that paradigm. I don't like using "warped" because it implies a negative change, but the bottom line is that the shape of the story in the RTS games is different from how it's been done in the MMO, and Blizzard doesn't seem to be showing any sense of reversing that.
Hrm. Well I understand where you're coming from, and to a degree I am/was doing the same thing... I'm just not sure anymore, exactly what I want.

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow
I think the RTS games were better at selling a character-oriented narrative, which is why Thrall, Sylvanas, Arthas, Illidan, and Tyrande are all fan-favorite characters while Garrosh, Varian, Moira and Anduin are not really as well-regarded. Hence, a core element of my desire to try to build up my skills with crafting RTS campaigns is to figure out how to tell the stories of some of these WoW-exclusive characters by using the same medium of an RTS campaign.

That gets back to the initial confusion I ran into when I started this thread: is there a way to tell an interesting story about the Forsaken when Blizzard's done so little with them in WoW?
Huh, true.dat. Well, to answer your last bit, I think you basically already do; your idea with Mograine is pretty solid. Do you not like it? What do you want changed?

//EDIT// - So, just to be clear, when you have time I would like to discuss/compare notes on your Forsaken RTS "faction" for this campaign (if that's what you're doing (a custom RTS faction for the custom campaign)), when you have the time/wherewithal.
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If you're interested in creating custom factions & heroes in Warcraft 3, I mod that over at The Hive Workshop (Also at Wc3C.net).

My primary Project Thread:
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  #41  
Old 03-06-2015, 08:19 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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The not Sylvanas (or Forsaken) killing alternatives are

1-The Dark Below Lordaeron

2-The Exodus of the Forsaken

3-The Conquest of Stormwind (or any other kingdom of your preference)
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  #42  
Old 03-09-2015, 12:51 PM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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The not Sylvanas (or Forsaken) killing alternatives are

1-The Dark Below Lordaeron

2-The Exodus of the Forsaken

3-The Conquest of Stormwind (or any other kingdom of your preference)
Are those actual physical campaigns/stories/concepts, somewhere? Or are you just camel-casing to make your ideas sound official? : )
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...Triumvirate has it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Triumvirate; you weird.
Welcome to the club. Have a drink on the house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I like this guy.
If you're interested in creating custom factions & heroes in Warcraft 3, I mod that over at The Hive Workshop (Also at Wc3C.net).

My primary Project Thread:
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...ehere_.303712/
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  #43  
Old 03-09-2015, 03:25 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenyaArikado View Post
The not Sylvanas (or Forsaken) killing alternatives are

1-The Dark Below Lordaeron

2-The Exodus of the Forsaken

3-The Conquest of Stormwind (or any other kingdom of your preference)
Y'know, answering the question of why Lordaeron's capital had such an extensive network of catacombs beneath it might be interesting.

I still don't take Kosak at his word about what it is that's underneath Tirisfal Glades, anyway.
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Lore Observation, Systems Design, and other science dropped at Power Word: Remix


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  #44  
Old 03-09-2015, 11:19 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Are those actual physical campaigns/stories/concepts, somewhere? Or are you just camel-casing to make your ideas sound official? : )
If what you are trying to say is that im giving my ideas pretty names, yes thats it.

1 would be about...whatever is below Tirisfal and drove elves mad. I could see it as either the opening campaign, a closing campaign leading up to an xpack or an stand alone thing. It would end with Sylvanas gaining power either by allyingwith the thing or conquering it

2 would be a middle campaign after an alliance one involving the reconquering of Lordaeron. Moving to Northrend maybe?

3 would be whats on the title lol
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  #45  
Old 03-10-2015, 07:28 AM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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If what you are trying to say is that im giving my ideas pretty names, yes thats it.
Ah, cool. Wasn't trying to call you out, just clarifying. : )
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Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
...Triumvirate has it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Triumvirate; you weird.
Welcome to the club. Have a drink on the house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I like this guy.
If you're interested in creating custom factions & heroes in Warcraft 3, I mod that over at The Hive Workshop (Also at Wc3C.net).

My primary Project Thread:
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...ehere_.303712/
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