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  #26  
Old 05-07-2014, 08:22 PM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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They gave him the wrong story. A warmonger like Garrosh can be a good character IF and only IF he has a strong story in order to back it.

Mists of Pandaria could of been that story, but it failed.
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  #27  
Old 05-07-2014, 09:30 PM
Kyalin Raintree Kyalin Raintree is offline

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In the hands of capable writers, he could have been a great character.

Sadly, there were no capable writers to be found.
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  #28  
Old 05-08-2014, 04:30 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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They wrote him to be a plot device, not a character. This is why Tyrande fails in the story lately too.

All of his major developments are in novels, and are written after he shifts in personality.

Writers still don't know what he's about. It's like they're making it up as they go.
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  #29  
Old 05-08-2014, 09:27 AM
Sceptrum Sceptrum is offline

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Originally Posted by Bullroarer View Post
"what would the old bull do?"

Garrosh said this in reference to Cairne.

Garrosh was for all intents and purposes, an ape.

He was hot head in northrend because he was aping dad

In Cata he took Saurfang's lessons and aped them.

He aped High Chieftain Cliffwalker and showed mercy

He pandaria he aped his new Blackrock cohorts.

Lor'themar, "So garrosh is using the Mogu as role models"

Whether it was Grom, Saurfang, the mogu, Cliffwalker, or whoever. Garrosh was never his own man.
Basically what Christie Golden said about him, is it not? That he was a weak person at heart, with no solid core.
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  #30  
Old 05-08-2014, 09:28 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Basically what Christie Golden said about him, is it not? That he was a weak person at heart, with no solid core.
And yet, he was able to overcome the Sha!
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  #31  
Old 05-08-2014, 09:51 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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And yet, he was able to overcome the Sha!
As demonstrated by the sha overcoming him and mutating him heavily.
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  #32  
Old 05-08-2014, 09:54 AM
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As demonstrated by the sha overcoming him and mutating him heavily.
It's a feature, not a bug.
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  #33  
Old 05-08-2014, 10:20 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
As demonstrated by the sha overcoming him and mutating him heavily.
You fool ! What are those whispers in his head and those purple forms on him, if not the proof that he is perfectly in control ? Hum ?
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  #34  
Old 05-08-2014, 10:28 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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You fool ! What are those whispers in his head and those purple forms on him, if not the proof that he is perfectly in control ? Hum ?
What? Who hasn't heard whispers? Honestly...
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  #35  
Old 05-08-2014, 10:56 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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As demonstrated by the sha overcoming him and mutating him heavily.
He was in control.
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  #36  
Old 05-08-2014, 10:59 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Let me give you the short history of Garrosh.

Garrosh was born about thirty to forty years before the start of World of Warcraft. During his childhood, he became afflicted with a disease known as the red pox, which caused him to be disowned by his father and sent to Garadar.

Then he was chieftain. Despite not being in line for that position. Of course, that could just be because of his strength, wisdom and approval by the spirits. Because of this wisdom, he became so dependent on Geyah that her getting old and frail caused him to become depressed. Because of his strength, he let his depression overtake him, losing two of the four mag'har holdings because he was busy weeping. The only thing that invigorated him was the vision of his father facing down Mannoroth. At last, Garrosh understood the redemption of his father, and of his bloodline.

On his own, Garrosh had found strength, wisdom and the approval of the spirits, and had earned the position of chieftain of the mag'har. So naturally, next time we see him, he is Thrall's young, impatient, hot-headed apprentice. He holds no position of responsibility, instead following the warchief around and yelling aggressive stuff.

Of course, when the scourge invaded, the young, impatient hot-headed apprentice that almost caused a war with the alliance twice over was placed in charge of the horde armies in Northrend. Despite not having any experience with fighting undead. Or any experience with large-scale warfare. Or any diplomatic experience. Or any experience with using arcane magic and machinery. Or any experience leading non-mag'har soldiers.

During his campaign in Northrend, Garrosh achieved no major victories. Instead, he lost most of his base-camp, lost a massive portion of the army and had to rely on a human to eliminate the target of the campaign. Naturally, this earned him the undying love of the orcish people, who thought Thrall had been too soft on the humans. Because of this, Thrall then appointed Garrosh warchief, despite the two disagreeing on everything for the past year. In a rare moment of sanity, Thrall gave Garrosh a lot of advisors, and made clear that his position was a temporary one.

When Thrall passed through Orgrimmar again (before the lost isles stuff), Garrosh had invaded Ashenvale, lost half of his advisors and ignored the other half. Naturally, Thrall left Garrosh in charge.

During his reign, Garrosh became incredibly popular for ensuring the stability and safety of the orcish homelands. This is evidenced by
-humans creating a base of operations to conquer the entirety of Durotar from, and his forces doing nothing.
-Vast portions of Durotar flooding, destroying many homes and leaving the survivors defenseless, and his forces doing nothing
-The razormane going through a phase of increased aggression, and his forces identifying the wrong person as being the keystone whose elimination would end the raids. Also, doing nothing to help actually defend against the razormane.
-Letting the night elves directly assault Orgrimmar, while his armies were busy guarding the other gate.
-The crossroads being cut off from resupplies, and his forces doing nothing.
-The burning blade roaming the barrens in packs, and his forces doing nothing.
-Alliance forces establishing a foothold in the northern barrens, and his forces doing nothing.

During this not really a war, his war efforts in Ashenvale, Vashj'ir, Stonetalon and the Southern Barrens failed. Goblin debauchery derails his forces in Silverpine and the fleet headed for the twilight highlands. The former was saved through unexpected aid, he still manages to lose the latter despite it. The only victories throughout this war are in situations where Garrosh has the least possible impact on the outcome. Naturally, as a warlord of his calibre, everyone is convinced Garrosh can still conquer the planet, only being worried the horde might suffer some losses along the way.

Luckily for Garrosh, there just happens to be a blood elf within the Kirin Tor that is loyal to him over either Dalaran or Silvermoon, and that blood elf just happened to have engineered a super-weapon, and that blood elf just happened to be assigned to Theramore. Thus, Garrosh managed to destroy the city without having to rely on any personal competence.

This would be a continuing theme. There's suddenly even more sunreavers that are completely loyal to Garrosh, again for no apparent reason. This allows Garrosh to retrieve the divine bell from Darnassus, which he knows is there because a night elf sentinel just happened to tell him as she was dying. Of course, Garrosh' failed to either utilize or properly guard the bell, meaning he got no benefit from it, and a fourteen year old boy was not only able to destroy the artifact, but survived doing so.

Luckily for Garrosh, he suddenly inexplicably knew where the heart of Y'shaarj was. For some reason, no one interfered with this dig in the most sacred pools of pandaria, allowing Garrosh to retrieve the heart. Naturally, Garrosh, who had spent a significant portion of his life sick, another significant portion moping, has no formal training and no special abilities, managed to beat one of the most accomplished monks in Pandaria in single combat, allowing him to take the artifact home.



In short, Garrosh' story is a mixture of epic plot-holes, personality flip-flops and sheer coincidences and contrivances substituting any competence.
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  #37  
Old 05-08-2014, 11:03 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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You're missing Garrosh's short story, The Shattering, Baine's short story, possibly Wolfheart, etc.
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  #38  
Old 05-08-2014, 11:03 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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You're missing Garrosh's short story, The Shattering, Baine's short story, possibly Wolfheart, etc.
I did say short history, didn't I?
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  #39  
Old 05-08-2014, 11:09 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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^ And he's still the best character WoW has to offer.
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  #40  
Old 05-08-2014, 11:10 AM
Mark_Romaneck Mark_Romaneck is offline

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Nice summary pink hat, Garrosh got shoved down (and continues to) our throats so much im surprised nobody chocked to death
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  #41  
Old 05-08-2014, 11:22 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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nobody chocked to death
The lore did.
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  #42  
Old 05-08-2014, 11:39 AM
Mark_Romaneck Mark_Romaneck is offline

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The lore did.
It was without a pulse on TBC
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Megatron: You've forgotten something else: I am your prisoner. I've been granted conditional bail while we look for the Knights of Cybertron. Where in my bail terms does it say—where precisely does it say—that I have to risk my life to save a handful of strangers? Where does it say that?

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Skids: Right. There. What does that badge even mean to you? How has wearing it forced you to modify your behaviour? I'm serious! How has being an Autobot in any way prevented you from doing exactly what you want? Because if the answer is "it hasn't"—then nothing you've said or done in the last six months counts for anything.
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  #43  
Old 05-08-2014, 11:54 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I did say short history, didn't I?
I know that players don't read the stories out of game, even when they explain his character. But you're leaving out the parts that explains some of his personality shifts.
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  #44  
Old 05-08-2014, 12:08 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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I know that players don't read the stories out of game, even when they explain his character. But you're leaving out the parts that explains some of his personality shifts.
Honestly, I'm not sure I did. Garrosh' short story would give him the set-up to start questioning Thrall, but doesn't really explain the parts where he's suddenly younger, Thrall's apprentice and lost any semblance of his supposed wisdom. Note that I deliberately never really brought up the whole "having issues with Thrall". I have more issues with the sudden overwhelming, idiotic self-destructive aggression.
The shattering does the exact opposite of explaining a personality shift, because they pretty much revert to WotLK Garrosh the second the book is over (except for one moment in Stonetalon. I'm still not sure why he suddenly teleported in though), meaning they explained a personality shift that didn't happen.
With Wolfheart, it gives him some explanation for his sudden shift from aggression against humans to aggression against night elves. I actually had that bit in there originally, but removed it because of Wolfheart. I hate that they shove the lore out-of-universe, but I will acknowledge that. Though, in reverse, TBC Garrosh -> WotLK Garrosh actually is a bit of a smoother transition without the portrayal from the comics. It exacerbates the Mak'gora in the beginning ("Oh Thrall-senpai, you give me so many honorz!" "Rargh, you suck, Thrall, imma kill you!"), but at least makes more sense as a transition of leadership, and doesn't show Garrosh being as much of an idiot first.

Not sure what part of Baine's short story you're referring to though.
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  #45  
Old 05-08-2014, 12:15 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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His short story explains his racism towards non-orcs, and his pride in the orc race. The Shattering tries to explain how despite being prideful and violent, he is honorable. Baine's short story shows how decisive he can be, for better or worse, compared to Baine.
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  #46  
Old 05-08-2014, 12:21 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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His short story explains his racism towards non-orcs, and his pride in the orc race. The Shattering tries to explain how despite being prideful and violent, he is honorable. Baine's short story shows how decisive he can be, for better or worse, compared to Baine.
Fair addition, but I don't think I claimed the converse of any of those, did I. I made no mention of such racism because of this reason, I made no mention of being dishonorable (because seriously, how does orcish honor work anyway?) and I certainly never claimed indecisiveness. What you mention are indeed a bit more positive sides, and I'll admit he has a few (the voice acting on him is pretty damn great and he doesn't get mired in inaction like some many other leaders). However, the question of the thread wasn't "make a balanced assessment of Garrosh' character", but "how did Garrosh fail as a character".
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  #47  
Old 05-08-2014, 12:59 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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It was without a pulse on TBC
TBC lore sucked for the most part. The expanding upon the orc history and the eredar/draenei retcon were about the only things I liked.
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  #48  
Old 05-08-2014, 01:04 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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TBC lore sucked for the most part. The expanding upon the orc history and the eredar/draenei retcon were about the only things I liked.
Interesting, I would have preferred if the Draenei backstory was that they were redeemed eredar with a different name from Draenei so that it was a different race altogether.

I liked the Orc bits too, it was the expansion that made me consider playing Horde a lot more than I normally did during vanilla.
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  #49  
Old 05-08-2014, 01:14 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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Interesting, I would have preferred if the Draenei backstory was that they were redeemed eredar with a different name from Draenei so that it was a different race altogether.

I liked the Orc bits too, it was the expansion that made me consider playing Horde a lot more than I normally did during vanilla.
I think the retcon added depth to the previous version and added a cool 'new' version of the draenei.

I know many disagree, but I found it more interesting that Sargeras was corrupted by the horrors he saw rather than some random evil race corrupted him. I like the idea that despite being chased across the cosmos by their corrupted brethren or being corrupted into Broken or Lost Ones or facing genocide by orcs, the draenei remained resolute and strong in their convictions. They're tough bastards.

While they can occasionally come across as goody-goodies, they also don't seem to suffer evil or the Legion lightly either and will crush it when it pops up. My only real complaints about the draenei is the naaru and the whole 'Army of the Light' thing, which thankfully hasn't come to pass yet. Also, the shamanism was very tacked on and never quite made sense (except for the Broken).
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  #50  
Old 05-08-2014, 01:22 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Fair addition, but I don't think I claimed the converse of any of those, did I. I made no mention of such racism because of this reason, I made no mention of being dishonorable (because seriously, how does orcish honor work anyway?) and I certainly never claimed indecisiveness. What you mention are indeed a bit more positive sides, and I'll admit he has a few (the voice acting on him is pretty damn great and he doesn't get mired in inaction like some many other leaders). However, the question of the thread wasn't "make a balanced assessment of Garrosh' character", but "how did Garrosh fail as a character".
I'm still going to throw itching powder at you.
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