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  #151  
Old 08-05-2016, 09:32 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
In Warcraft 2, Medivh was just a corrupted human instead of Sargeras' vessel.
Galdus is ri...
Galdus is righ...
Crap. This is really hard to type. My hands keep seizing.

But yeah. There are hints in the manuals that something deeper could have been going on with Medivh, but in the Warcraft II story Sargeras was a legendary dead demon. And Kil'jaeden broke contact with Gul'dan without any promises made on either side. (And of course, Warcraft I didn't have any named daemons - just the ones summoned as tools by Medivh or the orc warlocks.)

The Last Guardian was the first time the "Medivh is possessed by Sargeras" angle appeared. And I don't think Kil'jaeden's deeper relationship was depicted until Warcraft III? Then Rise of the Horde incorporated both, a little strangely, with Kil'jaeden abandoning Gul'dan just before Medivh-Sargeras made contact.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 08-05-2016 at 09:45 AM..
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  #152  
Old 08-05-2016, 09:48 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is online now

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
I find it funny that Kil'jaeden says the Legion didn't betray the other Gul'dan, it was Gul'dan that betrayed the Legion by abandoning the Horde.
It's honestly very much in keeping with Kil'jaeden's character. He uses and betrays, but to his mind it's everyone else who's betraying him.

Kil'jaeden earnestly believes he's in the right. The fact that Gul'dan 1.0 was already practically banished from the Horde by Doomhammer and in no position to exert any real control outside his two small clans when he "abandoned" it doesn't even register; as far as Kil'jaeden's concerned, Gul'dan was supposed to keep fulfilling the Legion's expectations of him, whether he even knew what those expectations were or not.

Just like Velen was "supposed to" meet his expectations and join Sargeras. By Kil'jaeden's standards, not doing so made Velen the betrayer.

Last edited by ARM3481; 08-05-2016 at 09:51 AM..
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  #153  
Old 08-05-2016, 11:17 AM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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Originally Posted by neoshadow View Post
the last guardian had sargeras going walkies whilst he slept, and even revealed to aegwynn that he was in medivh
>In Warcraft 2

The Last Guardian isn't Warcraft 2.
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  #154  
Old 08-05-2016, 12:01 PM
Apep Apep is offline

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Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
>In Warcraft 2

The Last Guardian isn't Warcraft 2.
I presume the WarCraft 2 lore offers a more coherent explanation of Medivh's actions?
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  #155  
Old 08-05-2016, 12:10 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Apep View Post
I presume the WarCraft 2 lore offers a more coherent explanation of Medivh's actions?
Not necessarily "more coherent". Perhaps more "Saturday morning cartoon villain".

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Originally Posted by Aegwyn
With his mastery over the arcane energies increasing almost by the moment, Medivh had set out to probe the extent of his ability to manipulate the world around him. Delving into the forbidden arts of Necromancy, Medivh began to unravel the mysteries of life and death. He took to consorting with Daemons from the lower planes, using their powers to augment his own. His hunger for power became stronger, and with every minor success Medivh fell ever deeper into the dark abyss of madness. He traveled far throughout the astral plane, exploring the infinite secrets of the Great Dark Beyond. It was then, in the midst of swirling chaotic hallucinations, that Medivh first encountered a world beyond his own and captured a glimpse of the aberrant, murderous denizens of that place.

Here at last, was the tool that Medivh had been searching for...

Desirous of complete dominion over Azeroth, Medivh used the insights gained from the knowledge of Tirisfal to strike a bargain with Gul'dan the Warlock - the mightiest of the rulers on the dark, red world that haunted Medivh's visions. Communicating through deep trances and astral projection, Medivh told Gul'dan of an ancient tomb lost beneath the north sea that contained power beyond imagination. It was to this tomb that I had banished the ancient Daemonlord Sargeras after a long and exhausting battle eight hundred years before. Even I cannot say whether or not the power of Sargeras remains entombed there. The promise of incredible power tapped from a true monarch of the underworld was enough to make the insatiable Gul'dan agree to do Medivh's bidding.

Medivh agreed to furnish the location of the Tomb of Sargeras to Gul'dan as well as an entire world to conquer. In exchange for this gift, Medivh required the total destruction of the only force he believed capable of contending his ascendancy to power - the great Kingdom of Azeroth.
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Originally Posted by Gul'dan
I was visited again by the visage of Medivh, who appeared more in control of his powers, but less in control of his mind. Petitioning the Horde to destroy the kingdom of Azeroth, but to make him ruler of its people, Medivh offered all manners of treasures and baubles to me. I assured him that his world was ours for the taking, and that he held nothing that could persuade the Horde to do his bidding. His face broke into a wicked sneer as he proceeded to show me the image of an ancient tomb upon which was etched the name of the Daemonlord Sargeras. The Tomb of Sargeras! The Daemonlord who had instructed my own tutor Kil'jaeden was entombed upon this pathetic little world! Destiny had chosen to lay the hand upon my shoulders alone, for Kil'jaeden had told me that the lost Tomb contained power absolute - enough to make any who could control it into a living god. Medivh pledged that he would grant me the location of the Tomb if only I would use the Horde to destroy his enemies...
Presumed motives in bold. He wanted to be king? In fairness, Day of the Dragon had Deathwing maneuvering to be king of Alterac.

EDIT: From this moment in the lore, one could argue that Gul'dan failed his agreement obligations when he couldn't keep the humans from murdering Medivh in his tower. It could be interpreted that when he tried to steal the Tomb's location from Medivh's mind, he was trying to get a reward for a quest he had failed to complete.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 08-05-2016 at 12:26 PM..
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  #156  
Old 08-05-2016, 12:27 PM
Apep Apep is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Not necessarily "more coherent". Perhaps more "Saturday morning cartoon villain".





Presumed motives in bold. He wanted to be king? In fairness, Day of the Dragon had Deathwing maneuvering to be king of Lordaeron.

EDIT: From this moment in the lore, one could argue that Gul'dan failed his agreement obligations when he couldn't keep the humans from murdering Medivh in his tower. It could be interpreted that when he tried to steal the Tomb's location from Medivh's mind, he was trying to get a reward for a quest he had failed to complete.
To be honest, I prefer the simplistic plot over our current ever-escalating conflict between greater powers over a single planet for seemingly little reason.
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  #157  
Old 08-05-2016, 12:28 PM
neoshadow neoshadow is offline

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Originally Posted by Apep View Post
To be honest, I prefer the simplistic plot over our current ever-escalating conflict between greater powers over a single planet for seemingly little reason.
There is a big reason.

we have the final titan.
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  #158  
Old 08-05-2016, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by neoshadow View Post
There is a big reason.

we have the final titan.
And Sargeras wiped the cosmic canvas with several simultaneously. Destroying an inert Titan should barely register as an inconvenience. Hell, the Olds Gods have practically done that job for him.
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  #159  
Old 08-05-2016, 01:42 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by Apep View Post
And Sargeras wiped the cosmic canvas with several simultaneously. Destroying an inert Titan should barely register as an inconvenience. Hell, the Olds Gods have practically done that job for him.
He has to find the planet first. Also there's some artifact lore implying he wants to corrupt Azeroth instead.
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  #160  
Old 08-05-2016, 01:53 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Apep View Post
I presume the WarCraft 2 lore offers a more coherent explanation of Medivh's actions?
The Last Guardian explanation is as coherent as that of Warcraft II. Warcraft II is just more simplistic (to the point where most of my Warcraft II fellows prefer TLG version).
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  #161  
Old 08-05-2016, 02:05 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
The Last Guardian explanation is as coherent as that of Warcraft II. Warcraft II is just more simplistic (to the point where most of my Warcraft II fellows prefer TLG version).
For me, there are bits of each that I prefer.

But I am reminded of something I miss from the old storytelling that is often absent in modern WoW: the sheer mortality of everyone and everything. Important people in one game were generally dead and gone by the next.

By the end of Warcraft: Blackhand, Llane, and Medivh were all dead, and Garona was removed as a factor. By the end of Warcraft II: Lothar, Gul'dan, and Cho'gall were all dead, and Doomhammer was removed as a factor (along with most of the old Horde clans). By the end of BtDP, all of those heroes were either killed or zapped through portals away from our plane of reality (the depiction in TLG implied that Khadgar may have been the only Alliance hero to survive, which was a possibility in that last level). By the end of Warcraft III, we have Uther, Terenas, Grom... who else? A whole slew of heroes dead.

World of Warcraft struck against this feel of mortality by bringing several of these characters back, through magic or time-travel or inexplicable retcon (e.g. Cho'gall was "just too tough to stay dead"). And now Gul'dan's gallivanting around town again.
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  #162  
Old 08-05-2016, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
He has to find the planet first. Also there's some artifact lore implying he wants to corrupt Azeroth instead.
Hurray for needlessly complicated solution that yields minimum gain over the more practical decision of obliteration. What good would another corrupted Titan do when Sargeras already roams the universe unopposed with only the most token resistance in the Naaru?

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
For me, there are bits of each that I prefer.

But I am reminded of something I miss from the old storytelling that is often absent in modern WoW: the sheer mortality of everyone and everything. Important people in one game were generally dead and gone by the next.

By the end of Warcraft: Blackhand, Llane, and Medivh were all dead, and Garona was removed as a factor. By the end of Warcraft II: Lothar, Gul'dan, and Cho'gall were all dead, and Doomhammer was removed as a factor (along with most of the old Horde clans). By the end of BtDP, all of those heroes were either killed or zapped through portals away from our plane of reality (the depiction in TLG implied that Khadgar may have been the only Alliance hero to survive, which was a possibility in that last level). By the end of Warcraft III, we have Uther, Terenas, Grom... who else? A whole slew of heroes dead.

World of Warcraft struck against this feel of mortality by bringing several of these characters back, through magic or time-travel or inexplicable retcon (e.g. Cho'gall was "just too tough to stay dead"). And now Gul'dan's gallivanting around town again.
I agree. Warcraft was already high fantasy, a fairly forgiving genre in terms of mortality. World of Warcraft did away with any sense of gravity by resurrecting anyone as a matter of convenience. Hence, I place my doubts on the certainty of any possible death in Legion.
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  #163  
Old 08-05-2016, 02:50 PM
Arakiba Arakiba is offline

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How many parts is this audio drama supposed to be, anyway? Was yesterday's the final? I mean, it kinda seemed final.
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  #164  
Old 08-05-2016, 03:11 PM
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How many parts is this audio drama supposed to be, anyway? Was yesterday's the final? I mean, it kinda seemed final.
Yes, that was the final one.
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  #165  
Old 08-05-2016, 03:22 PM
Azurehax Azurehax is offline

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It was the final piece of media, everthings released now.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/legion/#media
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  #166  
Old 08-07-2016, 05:31 AM
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Because I'm bored, and could've been an English student if I wanted to, let's go deeper, let's add more meaning into why Khadgar and Maiev turning up to fight Gul'dan spooked him so much. It's not that they reminded him "Oh shit, Azeroth's gonna fight back hard", but because they represent Azeroth.

Khadgar represents Azeroth's neutral factions- no matter what, they'll stand up for Azeroth's best interests, no questions asked, they'll always be be looking for the prime antagonist... But they can't win the day alone. Like Khadgar needed Maiev, Azeroth as a whole needs...

The Alliance and Horde. They hate each other. They argue a lot. They sometimes even fight. When the Alliance and Horde stand disunified, pursuing their own interests, Azeroth Suffers, and cannot properly defend itself. But despite this antagonism, they can still come together and fight when Azeroth needs it. For all their self interest and loathing, the Alliance and Horde, when there's something too important for them to ignore, come together and fight, and when they do, they're unstoppable.

Khadgar is Azeroth's neutral heroes, always ready to fight back, even after being battered and set back time and time again. Maiev is the Alliance and Horde, who hate working together, but will do so when Azeroth needs it. Together, they can hold back Gul'dan. Together, the Alliance and Horde working for Azeroth, they can fight back the Legion.

That was why Gul'dan got spooked. And also why I got an A* at GCSE English.
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Last edited by Torch; 08-07-2016 at 05:33 AM..
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  #167  
Old 08-22-2016, 03:34 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Oookay in the middle of vacation and then class, I finally got around to listening this and it was awesome!

Kil'Jaeden's voice often scared me, as it should.

I love how the evil guy is inspired by the good guys, it's not something that happens a lot in stories

As for Torch's comment: that reminds me of the MoP cinematic, where that human and that orc naturally ally themselves in the face of a greater threat, at the moment represented by Chen, who sees this and smiles. The Alliance and the Horde may be mortal enemies but they will ALWAYS join together to defend their home.

--------

Just wanted to state that important people do die in WoW. In TBC, Vashj, Kael'thas, Gruul, Zul'jin and Kargath all died for good, and Illidan for some time.

In WotLK, Dranosh, Arthas, Malygos, (Yogg-Saron?) and Anub'arak all got final deaths. Bolvar is in a cursed undead state.

In Cata, Cairne, Liam, Al'akir, Ragnaros, Cho'gall, Rommath and Deathwing all died never to return.

In MoP we have less important characters dying, but we still see Lei Shen's and Nazgrim's death.

In WoD, only Taylor and Garrosh of the MU died, but from the AU, Kargath, Ner'zhul, Fenris, Kilrogg and Velen all died.

And now in Legion we already have Varian, Vol'jin and Tirion deady dead.
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  #168  
Old 08-22-2016, 03:45 PM
Whitrix Whitrix is offline

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Rommath is alive. Nazgrim returned. And Maraad died in WoD.
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  #169  
Old 08-22-2016, 06:38 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Woops I meant Rhonin. Yeah Nazgrim's back but still... Undeath is different.
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