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Old 12-05-2016, 08:26 PM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Horde Flag Azeroth's Radicals

Political radicalism as defined in terms of philosophical history is the wish to enact fundamental and total changes in any given institution. They want the complete upheaval of what they believe to be failed systems - so radicalism is the ideological opposite of conservatism. Radicalism can be explained in another way in the metaphor of the dialectic: that any idea (the thesis) will inevitably create its complete opposite (the anti-thesis) and that the conflict between these two will eventually create a new synthesis that combines elements of both. Although radicalism can sometimes be mistakenly associated with violence and extremism, there exist radicals of thought who made their contributions intellectually. So with that long disclaimer being said, who are Azeroth's historical and contemporary radicals?

By any reasonable measure I think it would be fair to say that Thrall definitely qualified as a political radical - at least early in his career. He grew up apart from the traditional orc culture that generally valued -among other things- violence being a good thing, his Horde would be fundamentally different from the ones that preceded it. I believe Thrall's rejection of the institution of slavery is another good example of his ideological radicalism, too. Even his decision to admit the the Forsaken into the Horde must surely have been against the advice of his conservative counselors.

Grand Apothecary Putress and Lord Godfrey would probably represent the more stereotypical representations of the radical - a revolutionary; a terrorist. Both the assassination of the Banshee Queen and the attack on the Wrathgate demonstrate the radical means by which these characters enacted their agendas.

What do you think?

Last edited by Shaman; 12-05-2016 at 08:28 PM..
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Old 12-05-2016, 09:17 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I think for meaningful radicals we would need meaningful values in the playable races to have actual definitions and adherents and not to be changed or forgotten at the drop of a hat.

You say Thrall was a radical and did away with the institution of slavery, but then he not only appoints Gallywix as a leader but there were slaves in his allegedly Horde. Varian, Broll, Valeera, etc... and he put Reghar in a position of power, this isn't a radical departure from orcish tradition, it's service to the brand.

Thrall was a visionary leader but all that's forgotten once they need something else for the story.
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Old 12-05-2016, 09:19 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Fandral Staghelm was probably the first person to oppose the political dogma of Tyrande and Malfurion since the Kaldorei revolution.
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Old 12-05-2016, 10:30 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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You could argue that Tyrande and Malfurion themselves were radicals when they changed kaldorei society.
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Old 12-05-2016, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
You could argue that Tyrande and Malfurion themselves were radicals when they changed kaldorei society.
Oh absolutely. But then they didn't change anything else in 10,000 fucking years.

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.
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Old 12-06-2016, 05:52 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
You could argue that Tyrande and Malfurion themselves were radicals when they changed kaldorei society.
Tyrande and Malfurion created Night Elf North Korea. They were more or less a closed state for quite a long time even if the control they maintained over some areas was fairly limited and relied on factions that had their own agendas and power structures. Since their opening up, the centralization of the Night Elf state has increased quite a bit. The power of the smaller powers matters a lot less.
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Old 12-06-2016, 06:03 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
Tyrande and Malfurion created Night Elf North Korea. They were more or less a closed state for quite a long time even if the control they maintained over some areas was fairly limited and relied on factions that had their own agendas and power structures. Since their opening up, the centralization of the Night Elf state has increased quite a bit. The power of the smaller powers matters a lot less.
I don't think we should compare a modern, totalitarian state completely surrounded by other modern states with an entity surrounded by nothing but wilderness and rather primitive tribal societies. And I am not sure if we could classify the night elven society as a state, mostly for the reasons you described there yourself.

Still, Tyrande and Malfurion were radicals back in the day, both from our perspective and the old Kaldorei perspective. They were something like anarcho-theocrats, with Tyrande being a militant anarcho-theocrat.

Last edited by Marthen; 12-06-2016 at 06:06 AM..
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Old 12-06-2016, 06:22 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Nothing like North Korea though; the kaldorei could do pretty much as they wanted, as long as it wasn't arcane/demonic. People could come and go as they pleased, and they probably tolerated the Shen'dralar too.
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Old 12-06-2016, 07:03 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I don't think we should compare a modern, totalitarian state completely surrounded by other modern states with an entity surrounded by nothing but wilderness and rather primitive tribal societies. And I am not sure if we could classify the night elven society as a state, mostly for the reasons you described there yourself.

Still, Tyrande and Malfurion were radicals back in the day, both from our perspective and the old Kaldorei perspective. They were something like anarcho-theocrats, with Tyrande being a militant anarcho-theocrat.
I should have specified what I meant by Night Elf North Korea. They created a society with themselves at the head with a sort of cult of personality holding it together. The metaphor doesn't work on anything more than a base level comparison and it is totally anachronistic. Malfurion was probably more key to this than Tyrande, though, her importance shouldn't be down played. The Highborne society also seemed to function on a cult of personality, in that Azshara.
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Old 12-06-2016, 07:23 AM
Thornedale Thornedale is offline

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This thread makes me feel like I am four years old again and this is a circus I've been asking mom to take me to.
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Old 12-06-2016, 09:56 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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On the other hand, neither Tyrande nor Malfurion imposed that cult. It just sort of... happened because of their achievements.
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Old 12-06-2016, 11:13 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
On the other hand, neither Tyrande nor Malfurion imposed that cult. It just sort of... happened because of their achievements.
Night Elves seem to create them without meaning to. It's part of their culture.
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Old 12-06-2016, 12:36 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
Night Elves seem to create them without meaning to. It's part of their culture.
Thus becoming even further from North Korea.
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Old 12-06-2016, 03:40 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
Thus becoming even further from North Korea.
And thus my metaphor fell apart.
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Old 12-06-2016, 04:29 PM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
On the other hand, neither Tyrande nor Malfurion imposed that cult. It just sort of... happened because of their achievements.
Considering how often Warcraft-related arguments and misinterpretations arise from people incorrectly backtracking things both present and recent to the wrong past factors and motivations, it's quite refreshing to see someone get it right for once.
Just wanted to throw that in before someone shows up in here with one of them false premises and starts arguing the point.

On-topic: The Scarlet Crusade seems like the most obvious thing to bring up. Thoughts? Too many dreadlords for you folks? Not sufficiently inside-someone's-system as opposed to fighting something from the outside to count here?
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Old 12-06-2016, 04:32 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Scarlet crusade could count if they had played up the church of the light as a contrast a bit more, instead of the argents as equal opposite
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Old 12-06-2016, 04:40 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I came into this thread expecting Omacron to post a radical meme. I am disappointed.
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Old 12-06-2016, 05:56 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Quote:
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I came into this thread expecting Omacron to post a radical meme. I am disappointed.
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Old 12-06-2016, 08:57 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icefrost View Post
Considering how often Warcraft-related arguments and misinterpretations arise from people incorrectly backtracking things both present and recent to the wrong past factors and motivations, it's quite refreshing to see someone get it right for once.
Just wanted to throw that in before someone shows up in here with one of them false premises and starts arguing the point.
Hehe, thanks

I take great care to get things right in warcraft lore ;p
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  #20  
Old 12-07-2016, 06:05 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornedale View Post
This thread makes me feel like I am four years old again and this is a circus I've been asking mom to take me to.
Wish I could feel something like that again. The best thing about being a child, you see your dreams come true sometimes.
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