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  #1  
Old 01-16-2018, 12:51 PM
Fraznak Fraznak is offline

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Default Faction Systems

No doubt that two-faction system became iconic and essential for World of Warcraft game at least in the current stay, but not necessary for Warcraft universe.

So question is simple: how do you see ideal faction system from a lore perspective and maybe from a game perspective too? Would it be the same system, but in different form or some kind of soft-faction system or something completely different?
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Old 01-16-2018, 01:24 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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  #3  
Old 01-16-2018, 01:47 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Lorewise the factions would be divided more by ideology, and function a bit more realistically. There'd be small numbers of every race in both factions.


Gameplay-wise I feel they ought to go cold war, where the factions fight but neither is the priority of the other, at least not entirely, and even sometimes work together giving us more "Might of Kalimdor" type stuff.
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Old 01-16-2018, 02:13 PM
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I'd have soft factions. They exist politically, but they're not as limiting in gameplay. For example a tauren could earn reputation with Stormwind, but he'd start at lower rep for SW than a dwarf would. Lorewise have them be less like empires with member states, and more like political alliances.
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Old 01-16-2018, 04:28 PM
Triceron Triceron is offline

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At one point, I felt the Scourge was such an influential part of Warcraft 3's story that they could have transitioned into a full faction. You can literally create an undead version of any existing race ala Death Knight, and the faction isn't exclusive to any one race.

For questing and relationships with the world, they would exist to spread their influence in the world and characters might have ways to mask their undead presence like the Worgen Two-forms (if they are indeed undead) and a part of their schtick is infiltrating the Horde and Alliance cities. Any race could literally be a part of the Cult of the Damned. There would be the same limit of classes but you could choose your 'living form' as a part of your racial, whether you will infiltrate the Alliance or the Horde.

Their bases could be staged in floating necropolis around the world so they don't necessarily need a city in every corner of the world (though they would still have them). You wouldn't play as a Nerubian or Abomination but you'd be closely associated them factionally, like through racials or certain class combos.

As for lore for fighting Scourge, it could be similar to the Ebon Blade where at some point your faction breaks from Arthas' control or is betrayed and you're working to instate a new Lich King. They could raise an important lore character from the dead as a faction leader, sorta like what they've done with the new Four Horsemen.

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Old 01-17-2018, 04:52 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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Lore-wise, I believe each of the racial/rep factions should be independent powers with their own webs of alliances and rivalries. The Draenei would be pals with Night Elves, Humans and Blood Elves, and sympathetic towards the Tauren and Gnomes, but mortal enemies of Orcs and Undead. Night Elves could be friendly with Tauren and Draenei, but enemies of Orcs and Blood Elves, while Tauren, even being friendly with Nelves and Draenei, still stick by their Orcs brothers... This kind of things. Conflicting loyalties. Maybe even shifting ones, too: with the rise of an Auchenai leadership, for example, Draenei could get closer to the Forsaken, which would anger the Humans, or some such.

i'm not sure how such a system could be represented in-game, tough.
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Old 01-17-2018, 07:17 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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@ Patrick_C

I'm not sure that they'd require a new game system to do that, at least judging by the systems that have been in place throughout the game's lifetime. For one thing, PVP used to be centered around these localized conflicts that drew in belligerents from around the world, but if your Tauren really didn't feel like killing Night Elves, they didn't have to. Similarly, if your Dwarf wanted crack Orc skulls - you've got a group of Dwarves up here in the Alterac mountains inviting you to do just that! On a similar note, there were enough quests that the game didn't lead you by the nose to that you could effectively choose your own path - no acts of dissonance required unless you brought them about yourself.

Cata started it, but MOP really brought an end to this kind of thing with their means of simplifying quest flow. Instead of questing and developing being an experience that was unique to you, we were given a very linear experience that is similar from character to character. Those acts of dissonance are now all but required.

That being said, even with such a system in place, Blizzard could have made more clear the sorts of politics going on between races inside the same faction and between "enemy" factions. They've given lip service to this idea before, and it has always been within their power to write these things, but they have chosen not to, I would say mostly because the Horde's internal conflict serves the dual purpose of starting conflicts and wrapping them up gently without destroying the faction, and because the Alliance only exists to react to what the Horde is doing.

Especially with the writers' apparent lack of care for giving the Alliance goals to aspire to, aside perhaps from "let's be good, let's be friends, let's all be humans, immer du, immer du", there's little room for the sort of interfaction interactions that you've proposed. How can you have such things, after all, when the races you are proposing to interact with lack identity and purpose beyond their aesthetics, and cannot be shown as being in conflict with a faction that itself lacks identity?

I do think that is bias by the way, but the ways in which that bias impacts the Horde I think are obvious. If the Alliance has no internal motives of their own that don't require the Horde, where else can conflict come from? Hell, they even foreclosed the one exception (Stormwind restoring Lordaeron), by saying that it was retaliation for Teldrassil. We can't have intractable ideological, geopolitical, or religious disagreements because a) the Alliance has no ideology (or ideologies), b) the Alliance has no geopolitical ambitions outside of maintaining their borders, and c) because the objects of worship can be examined scientifically now and objectively debated - we have met our Gods! The Alliance does not even have a reason to exist outside of mutual defense against the Horde.

But even that appears to be the victim of a still-larger problem. Whereas in the beginning, players were treated to this big, multifaceted world with lots of things going on, and a larger list of mysteries, the world has shrunk. The plots always involve us stopping something that will end the world, to the point where the world itself is a character. Within the world there seems to be only room for so many plots either because the writers are haplessly flailing to make us care about the story by making it big, loud, or important, or because the concept of fleshing out dozens of detailed conflicts that happen independently of each other scares them. Either way, the entire product has suffered for it, especially with this expectation that if we do run into such a conflict, the Alliance and the Horde will have to hoover it up anyway.

But to put a cap on this - I think the faction system, as a system, is fine. It's just being misused by the current generation of writers.
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Old 01-17-2018, 08:12 AM
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(1) Soft faction system. Several of my friends who are used to Guild Wars 2 have expressed frustration that if they want to play with friends in WoW they are required to pick a race on that faction rather than the race(s) they would prefer playing. Despite being a social-game, this sort of hard-wired faction system tends to be more socially divisive.

If hard-wired factions are a must..

(2) Three factions. It easier to juggle two factions than three, so I don't begrudge Blizzard's decision to simplify things, but I think that three factions may have worked better from a lore and game perspective. In a three-faction system, I would propose the Alliance, Horde, and probably the Illidari.
* Alliance: Human, Dwarf, Gnome, Night Elf
* Horde: Orc, Troll, Tauren, Goblin
* Illidari: Blood Elf, Forsaken, (Pre-Retcon) Draenei (i.e. Broken), and Eredar (aka tieflings)
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  #9  
Old 01-17-2018, 08:52 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
(1) Soft faction system. Several of my friends who are used to Guild Wars 2 have expressed frustration that if they want to play with friends in WoW they are required to pick a race on that faction rather than the race(s) they would prefer playing. Despite being a social-game, this sort of hard-wired faction system tends to be more socially divisive.

If hard-wired factions are a must..

(2) Three factions. It easier to juggle two factions than three, so I don't begrudge Blizzard's decision to simplify things, but I think that three factions may have worked better from a lore and game perspective. In a three-faction system, I would propose the Alliance, Horde, and probably the Illidari.
* Alliance: Human, Dwarf, Gnome, Night Elf
* Horde: Orc, Troll, Tauren, Goblin
* Illidari: Blood Elf, Forsaken, (Pre-Retcon) Draenei (i.e. Broken), and Eredar (aka tieflings)
Agree, Illidari as the third faction would have been perfect.

I wouldn't lock races to factions though. Everyone would be able to switch factions no matter their race, to a certain point. Going neutral would be an option as well.
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  #10  
Old 01-17-2018, 11:56 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is online now

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TBH, I just wish the game had some way to represent things like the Draenei getting the Blood Elves. Can't they at least get to visit Silvermoon for diplomacy and training?

Also, if the Forsaken really are the ressurected citizens of Lordaeron then they shouldn't be in the Horde as full-fledged members. They don't share a religion, they are filled with dead humans, and shouldn't really have much in common with the rest of Horde in traditions. The Alliance has no serious hostility to freeded Undead and Gairthos was a cartoon villain so I'm sure they'd get in if they tried hard enough.
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Old 01-18-2018, 09:23 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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-Two factions, easier to manage...
-Not as much animosity between them.
-You can group with players regardless of faction.
-They take on the role of Azeroth's protectors, rather than class-themed factions.
-Races are still delineated based on faction, with reputations being faction exclusive still.
-EK would be fully Alliance controlled, Kalimdor would be fully Horde controlled.
-An Alliance member can go to Orgrimmar but not interact with as many NPC's as a Horde member could, and vice versa with Horde members in Stormwind.
-Factions would be more about "Choose your fantasy experience" rather than "Choose who you're opposing."
-Alliance would be considered Alliance of Lordaeron and comprise of Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Undead, Blood Elves, and Worgen. Horde would be considered New Horde and comprise of Orcs, Tauren, Trolls, Night Elves, Ogres, and Goblins.
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  #12  
Old 01-19-2018, 05:43 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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Night Elves and Goblins on the same side?

Are you trying to provoke a civil war here?
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  #13  
Old 01-19-2018, 06:50 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick_C View Post
Night Elves and Goblins on the same side?

Are you trying to provoke a civil war here?
Step right up! Step right up! That's right ladies and goblins, there's enough room for everyone. Come closer! come closer!

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  #14  
Old 01-19-2018, 07:29 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Idealistic cooperation between treehuggers and dirty hypercapitalists? Please, not in my Warcraft.
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  #15  
Old 01-19-2018, 07:48 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Idealistic cooperation between treehuggers and dirty hypercapitalists? Please, not in my Warcraft.
Are you claiming that a hyper capitalist wouldn't want to slash depletion, labor, and equipment costs if presented with an easy opportunity?
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Old 01-19-2018, 07:54 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Are you claiming that a hyper capitalist wouldn't want to slash depletion, labor, and equipment costs if presented with an easy opportunity?
I am claiming I would find this sort of idealistic cooperation absolutely uninteresting in Warcraft. There are franchises far better equipped and built for this, to the point they already do it.
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Old 01-19-2018, 07:59 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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I am claiming I would find this sort of idealistic cooperation absolutely uninteresting in Warcraft. There are franchises far better equipped and built for this, to the point they already do it.
Ok, so I replied to the question of whether, in a scenario I didn't pitch and don't necessarily agree with in lockstep, goblins and Night Elves being in the same faction would result in civil war with a long winded tongue-in-cheek "not necessarily", and your rebuttal to that is "well, I wouldn't personally like that"?
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Old 01-19-2018, 08:06 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Ok, so I replied to the question of whether, in a scenario I didn't pitch and don't necessarily agree with in lockstep, goblins and Night Elves being in the same faction would result in civil war with a long winded tongue-in-cheek "not necessarily", and your rebuttal to that is "well, I wouldn't personally like that"?
Who says it's a rebuttal? Does the word teasing ring any bell to you?
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Old 01-19-2018, 08:31 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Who says it's a rebuttal? Does the word teasing ring any bell to you?
Just so we're clear!

Though, since preference is on the table, and despite you not giving the reply I anticipated (*shakes fist*), I do want to bring that up.

Being the large, lore rich, and complicated franchise that Warcraft is, Warcraft attracts, and has room for, a number of preferences that WoW initially handled quite well. Wanted to be evil? This Forsaken warlock will suit you nicely. Do you like quirky researcher types? Try this gnomish mage! WoW offered and still offers a host of choices in what kind of thing you want to represent, and balanced them reasonably well.

Also in the beginning, I don't really think factions threatened this. Loose Alliances and alliances of convenience fit well and allowed the different nations to act and feel relatively distinct. In addition, those early writers didn't feel that in order to deliver a good experience according to one set of player preferences, they had to punish another set of players by depriving them of content that suited their preferences.

Now of course, factions have unfortunately been used to eliminate variation, and in terms of depriving certain players of what they liked for the benefit of other players (instead of working out a way to make both sides if not happy, at least satisfied), the faction war brought that out in spades.

Did the system change? No. The writing did. (Just as an add on to my earlier post - thanks for the set-up, Marthen)
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:15 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick_C View Post
Night Elves and Goblins on the same side?

Are you trying to provoke a civil war here?
Meh, it's about as farfetched as them being on the same side as Death Knights and Warlocks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I am claiming I would find this sort of idealistic cooperation absolutely uninteresting in Warcraft. There are franchises far better equipped and built for this, to the point they already do it.
I thought you wanted Night Elves on Horde though.

Not that I'm against them still being Alliance either, this is speculation so we can do what we want!
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Old 01-23-2018, 02:46 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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A soft faction system where everyone would be free to group/guild together like in GW2, and FFA PvP for PvP servers like in AoC. There will still be a Horde and Alliance in a break down like this.

New Horde
Internment orcs, Frostwolf, Warsong, Blackrock.
Darkspear and Raventusk tribes
Bloodhoof, Hawkwind, and Runetotem tribes

Alliance of Theramore
Theramore (Gilneas, Lordaeron, Kul Tiras, Stromegarde survivors)
Explorer's League, some dwarven noble houses
Quel'Thalas survivors

Each subfaction will have different diplomatic standing with each other.

There would also be some NPC hard factions that players can interact, or even affiliate with.

EK Alliance
Old Horde
various natives of Kalimdor
Grimtotem
etc...

So a human player can be a Lordaeron survivor that later latches onto EK Alliance. An orc player can be an interment orc that later joins Old Horde secretly.
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Old 01-24-2018, 06:37 AM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

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I remember a game that had three factions, I think it was Regnum.
the 3 factions had humans although of different ethnic groups and ideologies with that would have a population balance.
in wildstar the two factions have humans.

if I could change the lore I would have these 3 factions
horde: orc, trolls, goblin, tauren, human of alterac
alliance: human of stormwind, dwarf, gnome, worgen, night elves
new faction: human of theramore, elves of quelthalas, draenei, nightborne
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Old 02-21-2018, 08:53 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is online now

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1. The Blood Elves join up with Illidan in the Legion of Doom while Quel'thalas stays a haunted ruin.

2. The Horde sticks with its WC3 members and whatever Kalimdor beasties they get into their club.

3. The Alliance is its members but without the NEs and Draenei, who are friendly enough but do their own thing.
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Old 02-23-2018, 08:31 AM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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I think the faction system is fine honestly, but has one major issue.

Currently its less "Alliance and Horde" and more so "Humans and friends vs Warchief's crew and underlings"

The faction should have equal parts of all races doing stuff rather than one race always always always dominating all aspects. Legion had Human Gryphon rider soldiers. That's disgusting.
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