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  #51  
Old 02-01-2013, 03:55 PM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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The best solution would be to burn the Forsaken and have the Horde join the Alliance.

imo.
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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
So many deluded people think their rotting Waifuchief cares for them and their faction, when every scrap of internalized narrative has made it clear for years that to Sylvanas, the entirety of the Horde - including her own people - is nothing more than a shitton of bodies to stack between herself and her final death.

And all it takes is a tactically calculated "for the Horde" rallying the troops to make them all think "OMG she really does care!"
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  #52  
Old 02-01-2013, 03:56 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
@Kynrind, I'll answer point by point

I don't see why you mention the Ashbringer, it is largely inconsequential and is Tirion's personal belonging to do with as he wants. Including giving it to the Alliance if he so chooses.
And the Argent Crusade in this plan is the exact opposite of being a Horde faction, they would be the neutral mediators between the Forsaken and human settlers, the only ones besides the Horde army to be allowed to bear arms. And even in times of war the Horde can't draft civilians from the protectorate, unless they volunteer. The Argent Crusade would never leave the land, unless it was on some world saving mission, it would be there for the people, not the Horde. Same goes for the DKs and the shamans.

The timeframe is irrelevant, but I meant it to be implemented post-Garrosh.

As I've said the nation would be heavily steered towards neutrality from foundation to independence in 120 years.
And the idea here is not to make a horde centric state, but to make a state where Alliance and Horde people live together in peace, and after 120 years of peace and cooperation between the factions, where the LPA is the centerpiece, the conjoined venture (to tie the groups together) it is unlikely there will be any new wars. And if new wars happen then this new nation, composed from people from both sides, would be the perfect peace factor. People within it would be highly unwilling to see a war between the Alliance and the Horde.

The base in Hammerfall exists because it is of historic importance to orcs (Orgrim fell there), it can become a demilitarized zone if needed, but it should be accessible to orcs. For the same reasons we allow humans into Lordaeron.

As for Kalimdor, I take the lore on the Cataclysm which said that resources dwindled in the days which encompass it to mean that now when Thrall and the shamans have pacified the elements again and DW is dead things should go back to normal.

Specifically I'd suggest a full retreat of orcs from Ashenvale and Felwood unless agreed differently by both sides. Stonetalon, Desolace and Feralas would be partitioned between the two groups. And Azshara would go to the Horde, with NEs being granted demilitarized land around their sacred places. Possibly even more to the NEs if the Horde can subsist on less.


But all of the above is rather irrelevant. My main question in that thread was, how would YOU make a peace treaty between the Alliance and the Horde?
But do take into consideration all that was written in that thread, the peace treaty can't be a simple x gets y, z gets w. It has to resolve the underlying problems.


The Horde is the one that would control the national policies and any international relations and trade. That's under Horde control. The Horde is also the one that provides for the majority of the military and police forces. The forsaken are disarmed, that is true, but so are any Alliance settlers. The Argent Crusade force that is armed is smaller than what it is now. That leaves the Horde military in the superior position.

All of this means the Horde would also be able to influence the 'nation's internal politics to a very large degree, thereby undercutting the underpinnings of the treaty right there. After all, what if the majority of the leaders in the realm are strong-armed or convinced to vote to fully join the Horde? Mind control blackmail, drugs or other methods of mental persuasion would likely be used, but once the vote is taken, it would be 'legally' binding. Who's to say that they couldn't do the vote earlier? It would be legal by all intents and purposes and it's what the people want after all. This gives the horde full and legal control over the majority of what is the nation of Lordaeron. This is what I think the Horde would steer for. 95% probability of happening. For them to not do it is very unlikely.

What happens if a lot of the forsaken join the military and just happen to be stationed in Lordaeron? This allows for armed forsaken to exist as a force in Lordaeron.

I mentioned Ashbringer because this open nation allows for the free flow of people anywhere, which means it would be a lot easier to get spies into Hearthglen and figure ways out to get control of the Ashbringer, or at least get it out of Tiron's hands.


For me, a peace treaty would be the withdrawal of all Alliance lands everywhere. A disbanding of most of the Horde war machine, a public apology from all of the leaders, especially from the Warchief and Sylvanas, immediately followed by Garrosh's and Sylvanas's executions and the burning of their corpses. The orcs have to acknowledge and accept that THEY are the cause of most of the problems they've been facing. Then they can work to change their culture to something that doesn't use it's axe first and maybe ask questions later. (it's harsh for the orcs, but it's something that they -need- to have happen to them or this problem will only crop up again). They could receive aid and training to learn forestry, agriculture, fishing and other peaceful occupations that will feed their people and ensure that they can produce their own trees and stop stealing from other people.

The forsaken have to withdrawal from all occupied land. In this case, Gilneas (they hold small parts of it), the Arathi Highlands, the orcs giving up Hammer fall as well (who cares if it's 'important' to them? they don't need to control the ex-camp. it's past time they stopped upholding those parts of their past as examples of things to honor). The forsaken would control Tirisfal glades, most of Silverpine excepting the Gilnean lands), Alterac, Tarren Mills and some other parts of Hillsbrad Foothills and Anderhol. This gives them plenty of land to use, and they have to allow Alliance and Argent Crusader observers into their lands to ensure that all blight and other experimentation are stopped and destroyed. The Val'kyr will be killed too. The rest of the Western and all of the Eastern Plague-lands fall under AC control.

This gives the forsaken a nation that isn't Alliance on their borders and that will keep it's word, but that is also in position to curb stomp the forsaken if they do not keep their word.

The basic premise of your idea is, 'a working peace treaty between the factions'. To do that however, you have to deal with the underlying militarism of the orcs and the forsaken. Until that is dealt with, no treaty will last because the orcs and the forsaken will break it.
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  #53  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:02 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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I must have missed the part where we, the player characters, jump several hundred years into the future to witness Sylvanas being reborn into the world.
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Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
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  #54  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:03 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
1. Because feasibly over a couple centuries she'd reflect on what she did and get back to some semblance of herself before she was undead, and she'd NEVER get that golden light afterlife she nearly got the first time she died.

2. By reward do you mean centuries of pain followed by freedom leading to a non-specific end likely involving wandering the world/universe in a sort of limbo?

3. She's not really absolved :\


1. By that measure, everyone who is dead should get a second chance after suffering for several centuries/millennium. Let the dead stay dead and get their eternal rewards, for good or ill.

2. That sounds about right. She's an evil bitch that liked being an evil bitch. She earned her hellish torment.

3. If she is freed from it, she is basically absolved since she isn't suffering anymore and gets yet another chance to do good. At what point do you say 'enough is enough' and let her stay in her well earned hell for eternity?
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  #55  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:04 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Having the Horde be anywhere and possessing any power in Lordaeron is unacceptable. You may as well craft a "peace" where the Horde gets du jure control over Stormwind.

Again, for the Alliance to accept the peace that C9 would have, they'd have to be completely retarded and if they did accept it I'd call it grounds for a revolution to depose any leader who accepted it.
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  #56  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:07 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
The basic premise of your idea is, 'a working peace treaty between the factions'. To do that however, you have to deal with the underlying militarism of the orcs and the forsaken. Until that is dealt with, no treaty will last because the orcs and the forsaken will break it.
To say this means you haven't read everything I wrote in that thread. Or you would remember the parts where I speak of essential and non-essential social pressures. And how they relate to ending orc and Forsaken militarism. We can't really discuss things if you aren't aware of the subject matter fully.

To make matters worse what you propose is a complete political subjugation of the Horde, which can only come about after a total defeat of it. Sure that works as a long term peace treaty, but so does the utter subjugation of the Alliance.

Is that the peace treaty we should strive for?
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  #57  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:10 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
To say this means you haven't read everything I wrote in that thread. Or you would remember the parts where I speak of essential and non-essential social pressures. And how they relate to ending orc and Forsaken militarism. We can't really discuss things if you aren't aware of the subject matter fully.

To make matters worse what you propose is a complete political subjugation of the Horde, which can only come about after a total defeat of it. Sure that works as a long term peace treaty, but so does the utter subjugation of the Alliance.

Is that the peace treaty we should strive for?
See, the war has gotten serious enough and widespread enough and has coincided with enough Horde crimes against humanity/elfdom/dwarfdom etc. that anything less than unconditional surrender on the part of the Horde should be unacceptable to the Alliance.
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  #58  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:14 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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That would assume there would even be an alliance left, or that it'd look anything like it does currently.

Not to mention that the Horde super power controls two ancient nations in the Eastern Kingdoms. There's no simple way to simply handwave them from history. Especially the elves.
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Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
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Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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  #59  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
See, the war has gotten serious enough and widespread enough and has coincided with enough Horde crimes against humanity/elfdom/dwarfdom etc. that anything less than unconditional surrender on the part of the Horde should be unacceptable to the Alliance.
The Alliance would be stupid to refuse any attempt at peace when war would net them less and cost them more.

To put it simply, if the Horde proposed a peace treaty with terms like Nonane's, the people of the Alliance would be right to revolt and overthrow any leader who refused it in favour of more bloodshed over a dead kingdom.
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  #60  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:20 PM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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1: Kill the Forsaken

2: Get rid of the High King / Warchief Nonsense

3: Incorporate the Horde races into the Alliance, as every part an equal.

4: Have everyone (for the most part) do their own thing, and unite to deal with any major problems (The Legion, the Naga, Bolvar going crazy...)

5: encourage trade, rebuild the Eastern Kingdoms.

6: Grow the barrens into a lush forest for the Horde to have game and lumber, without needing to log in Ashenvale.

7: ice cream party!
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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
So many deluded people think their rotting Waifuchief cares for them and their faction, when every scrap of internalized narrative has made it clear for years that to Sylvanas, the entirety of the Horde - including her own people - is nothing more than a shitton of bodies to stack between herself and her final death.

And all it takes is a tactically calculated "for the Horde" rallying the troops to make them all think "OMG she really does care!"
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  #61  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:24 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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The Alliance would be stupid to refuse any attempt at peace when war would net them less and cost them more.

To put it simply, if the Horde proposed a peace treaty with terms like Nonane's, the people of the Alliance would be right to revolt and overthrow any leader who refused it in favour of more bloodshed over a dead kingdom.
Except the Horde doesn't recognize peace and the Horde proposing terms like this would be the Horde proposing surrender terms to the Alliance.

And it wouldn't be refusing in favor of "more bloodshed." It would be refusing it in favor of making the Horde no longer a threat by neutralizing it instead of accepting their surrender terms and living under the yoke of Horde domination for 120 years.

A leader who accepted these terms from the Horde would be selling their people into effective slavery and the people would have every right to tell that leader to fuck off.

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Not to mention that the Horde super power controls two ancient nations in the Eastern Kingdoms. There's no simple way to simply handwave them from history. Especially the elves.
Yeah, but the times under Horde domination would be remembered as a painful blip and a warning of what happens when the Alliance is complacent. Sorta like the occupation of France and the Low Countries.
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  #62  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:32 PM
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A leader who accepted these terms from the Horde would be selling their people into effective slavery and the people would have every right to tell that leader to fuck off.
Who would be getting sold out? Everyone currently in the lands which would fall to the Horde are either Forsaken or dead.
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  #63  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:34 PM
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Who would be getting sold out? Everyone currently in the lands which would fall to the Horde are either Forsaken or dead.
The people who want their homes back, the people who are currently in hiding or actively fighting against the Forsaken.
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  #64  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:38 PM
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Fojar's madness has made me wonder about one thing.

That is, the current Horde rebellion is very risky. It divides the Horde when it is taking on the other world superpower. In a way the rebels are putting their lives in Alliance hands, hoping that the Alliance will treat them better then Garrosh will. Or they believe they can win over both Garrosh, and stave off the Alliance, which I find rather dubious.

It is just a very stupid time to rebel.

Still, silly me, expecting internal realism in warcraft.
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  #65  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:53 PM
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The people who want their homes back, the people who are currently in hiding or actively fighting against the Forsaken.
Would get to go back to their old lands in peace.
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  #66  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:56 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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To be fair, we don't know the extent of the Alliance's presence during the SoO. If the Horde is led by, say... Thrall, then every gain inside the city could directly fall back to the Horde, and the city could be operable within moments of Mak'gora having been finished.

If it turns out that Varian and c.o has brought the entire 7'th fleet (all two survivors!) or whatever army the Alliance can muster after their terrible losses in Northrend, Cataclysm, Tides of War and Pandaria - then we might have to sigh at the sillyness.

But say that the Alliance side is led by someone like... Jaina, or Anduin, who knows better than to antagonize the working bees when delving into the hornets' nest in search of the queen, and we might have a different outcome.
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Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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  #67  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:56 PM
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Skytotem's idea is... okay. Again, still rather lukewarm. My only question, really, is how the Forsaken would find out that Sylvanas is in a darkness supposedly controlled by the old gods? Would she have a diary that is found out after her death?
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  #68  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:56 PM
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Would get to go back to their old lands in peace.
As glorified peons under Horde rule who would never get to be governed by one of their own and who would be forced to share their lands with the people who stole them in the first place.

That's not returning home, it's being a slave.
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  #69  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:58 PM
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As glorified peons under Horde rule who would never get to be governed by one of their own and who would be forced to share their lands with the people who stole them in the first place.

That's not returning home, it's being a slave.
That sounds like being a Native American.
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  #70  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:58 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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That sounds like being a Native American.
Or African.
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Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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  #71  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:59 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Would get to go back to their old lands in peace.
Assuming that the orcs don't get bored and start killing humans to gain precious honor points and assuming the Argents/whoever (been a while since I read that treaty) don't suddenly get a big case of "not my problem" again.

Or assuming the orcs don't suddenly stop caring about the humans the next time a suspicious looking plague spreads around. I mean, just look at how the Kor'kon improved the lives of human captives under Thrall, mister doesn't-see-humans-solely-as-fuckheads... that is, no improvement at all.
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Old 02-01-2013, 05:08 PM
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Hmm, it's interesting. I dislike the idea of Sylvanas becoming anything approaching a deity, however. Personally I'd be quite satisfied seeing her get killed by some human or worgen character, though as you said that probably won't happen.

Your reference to the Puzzle Box did make me think of another one of its comments:

What can change the nature of a man?

Since yes, I suppose Sylvanas would have motivation to try and follow in the Nameless One's footsteps. She'd regret it eventually, of course...
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  #73  
Old 02-01-2013, 05:13 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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For an equal setting, it could be that Sylvanas literally ascends the Frozen Throne and attempt to seize Bolvars' crown. Could be that she fails and is killed, but that her entourage - powerful Forsaken nobles and shadow priests - claim that she has ascended the throne and is now watching over all of them in divine omnipotence, and thus she keeps power in Lordaeron by virtue of divinity, without actually existing, all power being kept by this priests caste who knows she doesn't exist.

Kinda like how organized religion works in our world.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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  #74  
Old 02-01-2013, 05:19 PM
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1. By that measure, everyone who is dead should get a second chance after suffering for several centuries/millennium. Let the dead stay dead and get their eternal rewards, for good or ill.

2. That sounds about right. She's an evil bitch that liked being an evil bitch. She earned her hellish torment.

3. If she is freed from it, she is basically absolved since she isn't suffering anymore and gets yet another chance to do good. At what point do you say 'enough is enough' and let her stay in her well earned hell for eternity?
1. Guess it's a difference of opinion then.

2. That's... what's going on though?

3. Not... -really- because she never gets to enjoy the light afterlife or any of the nice things about being 'alive', save fleeting moments where she's feeling less terrible due to the ministrations of her followers.

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
Skytotem's idea is... okay. Again, still rather lukewarm. My only question, really, is how the Forsaken would find out that Sylvanas is in a darkness supposedly controlled by the old gods? Would she have a diary that is found out after her death?
There would be attempts to raise her again sans-Val'kyr that would fail, but allow glimpses as to what's happening to her.

We've GOT to ask MMO champion how to do that thing where after you make a post and the post above it is one of yours, the two get edited together automatically.
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Last edited by Mutterscrawl; 02-01-2013 at 05:22 PM..
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Old 02-01-2013, 05:47 PM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post

If it turns out that Varian and c.o has brought the entire 7'th fleet (all two survivors!) or whatever army the Alliance can muster after their terrible losses in Northrend, Cataclysm, Tides of War and Pandaria - then we might have to sigh at the sillyness.
The same way that the small numbers who traveled across the great sea and survived the Third War made a real Orcish Nation?

The same way the small numbers that broke off from Arthas made a faction that's managed to hold off everything in the Northern Eastern Kingdoms?

The few number of Darkspear that survived both the Sea Witch and being invaded by Proudmoore have a viable faction in the Horde? Or the Tauren, who where near extinction, have bounced back after what, 10 years since WC3?

EDIT: The 7th Fleet is also the fleet that's currently kicking the Horde's ass up and down Krasarang.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
So many deluded people think their rotting Waifuchief cares for them and their faction, when every scrap of internalized narrative has made it clear for years that to Sylvanas, the entirety of the Horde - including her own people - is nothing more than a shitton of bodies to stack between herself and her final death.

And all it takes is a tactically calculated "for the Horde" rallying the troops to make them all think "OMG she really does care!"
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