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  #101  
Old 03-18-2019, 04:26 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
My post summarizes my thoughts on Darkshore.
The presence of Night Elven troops in Boralus should be accounted in your perception of the race regarding Darkshore.
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  #102  
Old 03-18-2019, 04:56 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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The presence of Night Elven troops in Boralus should be accounted in your perception of the race regarding Darkshore.
Why, and what makes you assume its impact will be material?
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  #103  
Old 03-18-2019, 08:11 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Why, and what makes you assume its impact will be material?
The most dominant race in a human military hub naval port (a new human race port, at that) being Night Elf elite troops for a considerable amount of time every two or three weeks speaks loudly of the race's strength.

Especially after Teldrassil.
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  #104  
Old 03-19-2019, 06:14 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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The most dominant race in a human military hub naval port (a new human race port, at that) being Night Elf elite troops for a considerable amount of time every two or three weeks speaks loudly of the race's strength.

Especially after Teldrassil.
I disagree. I think that's trying to headcanon your way into an overall perception that does not exist. I can daisy-chain logistical and prowess-based extrapolations into a fanonical delusion all day and all night, but that does not remove or improve the issues that I discussed earlier.

Exception passed as immaterial. /KVR
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  #105  
Old 03-19-2019, 06:33 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I disagree. I think that's trying to headcanon your way into an overall perception that does not exist. I can daisy-chain logistical and prowess-based extrapolations into a fanonical delusion all day and all night, but that does not remove or improve the issues that I discussed earlier.

Exception passed as immaterial. /KVR
So a large representative of elite Night Elven forces standing in formation (not walking randomly alone, as one might have imagined) in a military for strategic retaliation doesn't speak loudly of the race's strength?

I cannot see how you give form to this conclusion in any sense.
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  #106  
Old 03-19-2019, 07:34 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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So a large representative of elite Night Elven forces standing in formation (not walking randomly alone, as one might have imagined) in a military for strategic retaliation doesn't speak loudly of the race's strength?

I cannot see how you give form to this conclusion in any sense.
If I had to guess, that's probably because you either didn't read or didn't take the time to understand the post you are attempting to respond to...

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The Mortgage Backed Securities and Collateralized Debt Obligations that were the trigger for the 2008 financial crash are simple to understand now that they’ve done their work. On the surface, they were pristine and nearly risk free, being given the highest credit ratings by credit ratings agencies, and backed with so many assets that they were considered a diversified, safe investment. In reality, many of them were toxic waste dumps, filled with loans from consumers with awful credit, with no income verification, and no ability to repay when the low teaser rates expired.

Night Elf lore is something of the reverse situation. They are portrayed awfully, but the underlying canon is frequently solid, or at the very least, not anywhere near as bad as how it appears in game. The Night Elves won in Cataclysm, and assumed control of Ashenvale as of or during MoP. Tweets exist confirming this, but as I have pointed out, there is popular confusion about that fact to this day because that portrayal was never in the game. These days, people point to the 8:1 force composition number, and the 4:1 kill death ratio from Elegy and A Good War – but that wasn’t depicted in the game either – and nor was it clear as to whether the rest of the Night Elven military was obliterated, or if huge portions of it survived. I could go on, but if we were to regard them as a CDO, they’re the opposite of the ones that took down the financial system. They look like a toxic asset, but are in reality, comprised of very safe investments.

As far as a crisis of confidence is concerned however, the only difference between the fate of the banks holding these investments in the concentration that say, Lehman Brothers did, is that in the first case the bank run started after people started to ask, and learn about the underlying reality. Perception is all that matters.
What did you think this whole section was about?
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  #107  
Old 03-19-2019, 07:51 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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They are portrayed awfully, but the underlying canon is frequently solid
A large representative of elite Night Elven forces standing in formation (not walking randomly alone, as one might have imagined) in a military for strategic retaliation, is, not at all, an awful portrayal in my book.

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What did you think this whole section was about?
Precisely, you're stating exactly the opposite as I am. The Night Elves are currently portrayed as one of the Alliance's top 2 strongest races.
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  #108  
Old 03-19-2019, 08:59 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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The mere presence of NPCs does not demonstrate prowess to me. They did the same thing in MoP and it was similarly ineffective. The focus was, rightly, on the disasters strewn across the landfall patch.

It only means something, again, if you daisy-chain disparate facts and insinuations together to build your own picture of how things are going, and I'm not doing that again. Blizzard has to show that to me - only again, they can't now because if they tried, it would not be capable of resolving the dissonance it would create when compared to years of absolutely awful portrayals.

Besides, isn't that what you wanted?
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  #109  
Old 03-19-2019, 09:09 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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It only means something, again, if you daisy-chain disparate facts and insinuations together to build your own picture of how things are going
Every single picture of the current state of any thing can be seen as a daisy-chained disparate facts and insinuations together. That's a shallow insinuation.
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  #110  
Old 03-19-2019, 11:16 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Every single picture of the current state of any thing can be seen as a daisy-chained disparate facts and insinuations together. That's a shallow insinuation.
I disagree. There is a difference between a clear presentation of a fact and one that has to be strung together from various sources and held together with headcanon. WoW has a serious problem with how often it leans on the latter. The Night Elf experience has a more significant problem with increasingly desperate iterations of that process being required to support a conclusion of prowess. If that weren't enough, that process frequently is given the uphill struggle of trying to use low context media (text and explanations), with in-your-face high context media (like quest content, cinematics, and that picture you so prominently display).
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  #111  
Old 03-19-2019, 12:08 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I disagree. There is a difference between a clear presentation of a fact and one that has to be strung together from various sources and held together with headcanon. WoW has a serious problem with how often it leans on the latter. The Night Elf experience has a more significant problem with increasingly desperate iterations of that process being required to support a conclusion of prowess. If that weren't enough, that process frequently is given the uphill struggle of trying to use low context media (text and explanations), with in-your-face high context media (like quest content, cinematics, and that picture you so prominently display).
Can we really call it a problem when it's been a conscious part of their design philosophy from the day one?
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  #112  
Old 03-19-2019, 02:05 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Can we really call it a problem when it's been a conscious part of their design philosophy from the day one?
Yes
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  #113  
Old 03-19-2019, 02:27 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Yes
Alright, I will reiterate. Can we call it their problem?

To make a practical example, let's say I write a guidebook on how to build muscle mass. It's always been designed that way, and never presented as anything other. Yet, some mistake it for a guidebook to get a slim, fit figure. Is it really my problem when these people get an undesired result because of their own misinterpretation? Should I just go and change the design of my guidebook because of them?
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  #114  
Old 03-19-2019, 03:06 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I disagree. There is a difference between a clear presentation of a fact and one that has to be strung together from various sources and held together with headcanon. WoW has a serious problem with how often it leans on the latter. The Night Elf experience has a more significant problem with increasingly desperate iterations of that process being required to support a conclusion of prowess. If that weren't enough, that process frequently is given the uphill struggle of trying to use low context media (text and explanations), with in-your-face high context media (like quest content, cinematics, and that picture you so prominently display).
If you want to get a clear representation of the Vanilla storyline, you'll have to string together several different cues from various sources and hold them together.

Not necessarily with headcanon, though. The Night Elven elite troops standing in formation in Boralus isn't a headcanon. If I say they're a strong race because of that, then there's my interpretation speaking of the communicated value.

A headcanon would be a suggestion of way more forces possibly hanging out in the city, allocated in the barracks and so on.

And even then, I'm not even bringing to the table the Night Elf forces employed in the faction assaults, which happen in a constant matter.

If you want to get a clear representation of the Burning Crusade storyline, you'll have to string together several different cues from various sources and hold them together.

If you want to get a clear representation of the Legion Class Hall storylines, you'll have to string together several different cues from various sources and hold them together.

See?
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  #115  
Old 03-19-2019, 04:17 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Krainz, you are technically right, but the issue is, that's exactly what causes so many misinterpretations. Even now, after so many years, we have people not understanding what early post Warcraft III's lore for the night elves (and many other things for that matter) was about because it was scattered around in way too many places. To learn they were very few in number after the war, you had to read the manual. To learn their homelands were shattered, you had to read the Druid class lore entry on the main website or the RPG books. To learn of their loss of immortality and worsening condition, you had to read different in-game material. To learn why they had joined the Alliance, you had to read the RPG.
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  #116  
Old 03-19-2019, 05:56 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Krainz, you are technically right, but the issue is, that's exactly what causes so many misinterpretations. Even now, after so many years, we have people not understanding what early post Warcraft III's lore for the night elves (and many other things for that matter) was about because it was scattered around in way too many places. To learn they were very few in number after the war, you had to read the manual. To learn their homelands were shattered, you had to read the Druid class lore entry on the main website or the RPG books. To learn of their loss of immortality and worsening condition, you had to read different in-game material. To learn why they had joined the Alliance, you had to read the RPG.
You're partially right, but your description doesn't attack the heart of the matter.

If the presentations offered in those disparate works we're consistent - for example, if the novellas portrayed the situation of the War of the Thorns in an equivalent fashion to the quest content, it would be less of an issue - leaving whatever concerns I have about them constantly beating up on Night Elves aside, of course.

But that's not what's happening. The novellas in that instance depict the Night Elves as far more dangerous and effective than the quests did, and more egregiously, there are basic facts between the presentations that do not agree with one another.

Where this becomes an issue, as previously discussed, is that the media poor presentations, such as text explanations, dev interviews, and yes, books, seem to be where Blizzard goes to clarify that things weren't actually ineffective - after the in-your-face media rich presentation communicates that they are worthless and weak. This doesn't counteract the media rich content a) because media rich content is of higher quality when it comes to its ability to be remembered and its ability to impress, and b) because that content is often less accessible.

What Krainz is going for here though is a form of understanding that is of less quality than the both of them: headcanon. He supplied a reason based on what he sees as reasonable. Sometimes, unfortunately, Blizzard has in this way forced us to write the story for them, all the while refusing to clarify the situation for years. (They did this, for example, for Ashenvale) This isn't just not acceptable to consider in conversations about perception as dominated by media-rich, established content, it may not even be right because someone could supply their own headcanon, and/or because Blizzard could easily dispel it.

The Night Elves in Boralus for example could be there for any number of reasons. Maybe they've renounced Tyrande. Maybe they're all dating humans and wanted to stay behind. Maybe Anduin is threatening their families. Maybe they're the last competent Night Elves left and have been left to construct a settlement in Kul'Tiras. There could be any number of headcanon-fueled explanations that could put them there, but they are not necessarily true. Nor is it necessarily true that their presence is evidence that the race either is strong or has retained strength - and even if Blizzard came out tomorrow and said it would, do you think people would suddenly start to respect them?

I don't, I don't see how they ever will, which is why I reiterate that the race is finished and it's time for a bankruptcy.
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  #117  
Old 03-19-2019, 06:50 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
The Night Elves in Boralus for example could be there for any number of reasons. Maybe they've renounced Tyrande. Maybe they're all dating humans and wanted to stay behind. Maybe Anduin is threatening their families.
They're standing in military formation.

Right next to the military ships.

Right next to the NPC you talk to when queueing for Battle of Darkshore.

While wearing the new Night Elf Darkshore gear they added in 8.1.

They're clearly there for the purpose of Darkshore.

They're clearly there to show their military might.

In no possible way could they have renounced Tyrande, because she leads the battle.

In no possible way could they be there to 'date humans'.

I think the picture you make in your head when I describe the elite troops at Boralus is very different from the reality.
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  #118  
Old 03-19-2019, 06:56 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
They're standing in military formation.

Right next to the military ships.

Right next to the NPC you talk to when queueing for Battle of Darkshore.

While wearing the new Night Elf Darkshore gear they added in 8.1.

They're clearly there for the purpose of Darkshore.

They're clearly there to show their military might.

In no possible way could they have renounced Tyrande, because she leads the battle.

In no possible way could they be there to 'date humans'.

I think the picture you make in your head when I describe the elite troops at Boralus is very different from the reality.
The bolded portions are your opinion.

Edit: Although, with respect the everything but the most important thing, me being flippantly technical doesn't take away that they're probably going to Darkshore at least.
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  #119  
Old 03-20-2019, 05:01 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Just wanted to add some clarity on the sentinels in Boralus discussion, we know they're connected to Darkshore because of the way they and the other military NPCs in the area work.

Warfronts are on a timer where they're not available for both factions at the same time. The availability of the warfront is visually indicated by what types of troops are present in Boralus/Dazar'alor at the time. The troop types being orcs/humans for Stromgarde and Forsaken/night elves for Darkshore. When the other faction controls a warfront, you have a few troops milling around, when your faction controls the warfront, you have armies of those troops standing in regimented positions.

For example, on US servers right now, the alliance holds both Darkshore and Stromgarde, so there are huge clusters of human and night elf troops filling the harbor. The horde is assaulting Stormgarde, so there are orc troops present with only a few Forsaken.

When the Horde gains access to the Darkshore warfront, many more Forsaken NPCs will spawn and in regimented positions.

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