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Old 08-30-2016, 02:36 PM
Dagren Dagren is offline

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Default The Legion and its portal at the tomb of Sargeras

I'm not sure if it has already been discussed, but here goes: why have the Legion awaited all this time to use the sealed portal at the tomb?

It seems we have contradictory information as to the coming of the Horde to Azeroth.

We know Gul'dan was convinced to come to Azeroth by the promise of power he would find within the tomb. The Legion orchestrated the orcish invasion in part so that an orc (a being not from Azeroth) could enter the tomb of Sargeras.
Gul'dan was murdered by the demons within the tomb when he opened it because, according to Kil'Jaedan in the audio series, "he cost the Horde (and by extension the Legion) its victory in the Eastern Kingdoms".
Then why not use him there and then to break the seals instead of murdering him? The Legion would have had its own portal, not having to rely only on the Horde. And it was supposed to be the original plan, so why not go with it?

And after that, why not use it during the third war? Why not use it at any point since the creation of the Dark Portal? I mean it could not have been that hard to sneak an agent into Azeroth and into the Tomb, right?

Am I missing something?

Last edited by Dagren; 08-30-2016 at 02:38 PM..
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Old 08-30-2016, 02:49 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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He wouldnt have opened the portal, he was going to just steal the power. AU Guldan almost did the same thing, ironically Maiev and Khadgar made him change his mind.
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Old 08-30-2016, 02:50 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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Why is the legion fighting a war at 2 fronts? They are fighting one on argus vs tUralyons army and another at azeroth.
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Old 08-30-2016, 02:55 PM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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No, you're not missing anything. Blizzard just didn't think it through, they just needed a story hook for another expansion.

The bigger question is why the frikk would the Legion even bother with portals when they have FRIKKING DIMENSION-HOPPING SPACESHIPS??? And why on Jesus' green Earth would they send their troops into battle armed with axes and spears when they have the technology to build frikking spaceships, for fuck's sake!!! It's like if we were still using swords and shit when we are able to send probes to Mars.
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Old 08-30-2016, 03:03 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Originally Posted by GenyaArikado View Post
He wouldnt have opened the portal, he was going to just steal the power. AU Guldan almost did the same thing, ironically Maiev and Khadgar made him change his mind.
This is correct, so that is one question answered.

But why did they not seek to return there afterwards? Who knows? Might be that in the Third War when they arrived they realized their presence would draw the attention of the night elves one way or another, so they decided to go to Hyjal first?

I would really like to see ARM's or Marthen's take on this.
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Old 08-30-2016, 03:07 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Originally Posted by Gortrash View Post
No, you're not missing anything. Blizzard just didn't think it through, they just needed a story hook for another expansion.

The bigger question is why the frikk would the Legion even bother with portals when they have FRIKKING DIMENSION-HOPPING SPACESHIPS??? And why on Jesus' green Earth would they send their troops into battle armed with axes and spears when they have the technology to build frikking spaceships, for fuck's sake!!! It's like if we were still using swords and shit when we are able to send probes to Mars.
To quote Kil'Jaeden:

"You understand nothing!"

First of all, they aren't spaceships, but dimensional ships. Even moving through the Great Dark (space) it would take millions of years to get from one side of the universe to the other, which is why Sargeras doesn't come himself, and the Legion needs portals. Furthermore, they don't know its location relative to space, only in the Twisting Nether they can sense its location.

As for technology: a lot of the engineering in WoW works with magic. A dimensional ship is much more a portal than a real world space ship. Thus, their "technology" is really magic, which their troops do in fact use, even those who wield blades.
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Old 08-30-2016, 03:33 PM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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So their ships are just big portals, is that it?

And I mean, why isn't the Legion mass producing projectile weapons like railguns and particle beams and what have you and arming their troops with them when they can manufacture mother-fucking dimensional ships (Yeah, I consider it technology. Somehow I remain unconvinced by this "But it's magic" argument because even if it's powered by magic a LARGE part of it still looks like a machine).
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Old 08-30-2016, 03:37 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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They're no more spaceships than Dalaran or the necropoli. They float, they can move somewhat (though I'm not sure we ever see them move through non-teleportive means), and they shoot relatively small magical fireballs. Really, we've seen mages pull all of these abilities before, and on much more impressive scale. Except for the dimensional teleportation (and it's not clear if that's actually done by the ships or is some sort of external ritual), Naxxramas could do the same things on a larger scale.



As for why the portal wasn't used earlier? The Demon Hunter starter zone establishes that, like the dark portal, the burning legion portals require the sacrifice of souls to activate. Given that the Tomb portal is the biggest portal, I'd assume it also requires the biggest sacrifice, meaning you'd already need a semi-significant force present before you can activate it. That means you couldn't just get a lone agent there and do the thing. During the third war, by contrast, the Legion already had a giant army and several powerful demons, so why bother with the portal?

Then again, even with this explanation, opening the tomb portal would have been both possible and desirable during Vanilla and TBC

erm...

Maybe the blue dragonflight had a ton of guard spells placed on it, and those faded as a result of the nexus war and the death of Malygos?

Last edited by ijffdrie; 08-30-2016 at 03:51 PM..
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Old 08-30-2016, 03:51 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
I would really like to see ARM's or Marthen's take on this.
Well, allow me to try.

First things first.

1) Why Gul'dan?

Well, that one is rather easy. Let's take a look at some facts first.

As we know from past events, opening a true portal is no small deal. The Legion required a magician as powerful as Kel'Thuzad essentially empowered by the Sunwell and the knowledge of Medivh's book to open the way. Medivh is a no-brainer, and Kael was not really a pushover either, especially after his time in Outland and Anveena in his possesion.

Next, we know that Aegwynn sealed the Tomb so that no demon or Azerothian could open it. However, an orc could. Is the assumption that the same would apply for the enchantments she made inside the Tomb too far fetched?

Last, we know that those enchantments inside the Tomb were not a work of some amateur either. To break them, it'd require someone of exceptional skill, knowledge and power.

Now, combine those facts (well, and a theory in the case of the enchantments being made so that no demon or Azerothien could break them) and you will understand why it had to be Gul'dan. It is likely there has never been any other non demonic and non Azerothian warlock skillful enough to break the seals.

2) Why not use it during the Third War?

Simply, they didn't have anyone who would meet all the conditions required to break the seals. Kel'Thuzad, even in his Lich form, was still an Azerothian, dreadlords were still demons. As for why Archimonde didn't break them after he was summoned? Well. Maybe even he couldn't have done that. Maybe he could have, but it simply wasn't worth the effort at that point.

3) Why would Kil'jaeden want the Horde to win during the Second War?

Rather simple as well. Do you remember Warcraft III? When Kel'Thuzad told Arthas the Legion had two phases in their plan to invade Azeroth? Where the first phase consisted of wiping out any groups that could oppose them initially? Well, there goes your answer.

Last edited by Marthen; 08-30-2016 at 11:03 PM..
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Old 08-30-2016, 03:58 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Ooh, good play, Marthen.
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  #11  
Old 08-30-2016, 04:21 PM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
They're no more spaceships than Dalaran or the necropoli. They float, they can move somewhat (though I'm not sure we ever see them move through non-teleportive means), and they shoot relatively small magical fireballs. Really, we've seen mages pull all of these abilities before, and on much more impressive scale. Except for the dimensional teleportation (and it's not clear if that's actually done by the ships or is some sort of external ritual), Naxxramas could do the same things on a larger scale.
Yes, true, Dalaran and Naxxramas can do that... they're also structures constructed primarily from building materials. The Legion ships, however, distinctively look like machines. Now spin that "They're primarily magical and they can barely move on their own" however you want, I'm not buying it. They look like huge-ass machines, period. So again... maybe I can't wrap my head around this (as simple as it may look to you)... but what do those ships do exactly that the portals on the ground don't already?
If the point is is to shorten the distance, why bother building a huge ship when you can open a bunch of portals on Azerorth without a problem?

And why does the Legion still use Stone Age weapons when they have such an advanced technology?
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Old 08-30-2016, 04:31 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Honestly, the ships don't even look that mechanical to me. They look like giant flying stone towers rotated 90 degrees (which becomes more obvious in the demon hunter starting zone, where you can see one floating upright)

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but what do those ships do exactly that the portals on the ground don't already?
Provide cover fire from the skies, transportation and serve as a snazzy command seat for demon leaders.
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Old 08-30-2016, 04:51 PM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Honestly, the ships don't even look that mechanical to me. They look like giant flying stone towers rotated 90 degrees (which becomes more obvious in the demon hunter starting zone, where you can see one floating upright)



Provide cover fire from the skies, transportation and serve as a snazzy command seat for demon leaders.
Fair enough. Let's just say that nothing screams "sci-fi" to me like a giant spacecraft warping out of starburst and appearing in the sky. I loathe to use the phrase but it really breaks my fucking immersion to see such a thing in a setting like WarCraft.
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Old 08-30-2016, 05:15 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Fair enough. Let's just say that nothing screams "sci-fi" to me like a giant spacecraft warping out of starburst and appearing in the sky. I loathe to use the phrase but it really breaks my fucking immersion to see such a thing in a setting like WarCraft.
WarCraft isn't LotR or GoT.
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Old 08-30-2016, 06:15 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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And to me, that is an awesome and terrible thing. I like my elves and dwarves and humans in a strict medieval setting, but at the same time huge techno-magic like the draenei and Legion technology gives all that a cool spin.

So I'm going with it.

To try and break less your immersion, think about those spaceships like a necropolis with a portal inside. Now that is incredibly useful, as it becomes harder to attack and they can presumably move around.
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Old 08-30-2016, 06:40 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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More portal-related stuff. I'm doing the Scepter of Sargeras artifact questline (destruction warlock), in which Gul'dan seeks to gather the BtDP artifacts (he obviously didn't need to look far for the skull). He's doing this with the plans of using the artifacts to significantly enlarge and stabilize the legion portals. That means that the current legion portal strength, even with the tomb of sargeras, isn't optimal.
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Old 08-30-2016, 06:51 PM
Ratatosk Ratatosk is offline

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Originally Posted by Gortrash View Post
Fair enough. Let's just say that nothing screams "sci-fi" to me like a giant spacecraft warping out of starburst and appearing in the sky. I loathe to use the phrase but it really breaks my fucking immersion to see such a thing in a setting like WarCraft.
But we've had this since BC.
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Old 08-30-2016, 07:11 PM
Revenant Revenant is offline

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Originally Posted by Gortrash View Post
The bigger question is why the frikk would the Legion even bother with portals when they have FRIKKING DIMENSION-HOPPING SPACESHIPS??? And why on Jesus' green Earth would they send their troops into battle armed with axes and spears when they have the technology to build frikking spaceships, for fuck's sake!!! It's like if we were still using swords and shit when we are able to send probes to Mars.
Was the ToS portal open at all before the Legion spaceships started showing up? The pillar of fel is in the distance when the fleets first show up in the intro quests. They could be teleporting through it.
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Last edited by Revenant; 08-30-2016 at 08:27 PM..
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  #19  
Old 08-30-2016, 07:46 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
Was the ToS portal open at all before the Legion spaceships started showing up? The pillar of fel is in the distance when the fleets first show up in the intro quests. They could be teleporting through it.
Presumably the ships do pass through that portal, yes, and I believe they also act as an extension of sorts to it.
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Old 08-31-2016, 01:59 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Originally Posted by Gortrash View Post
No, you're not missing anything. Blizzard just didn't think it through, they just needed a story hook for another expansion.

The bigger question is why the frikk would the Legion even bother with portals when they have FRIKKING DIMENSION-HOPPING SPACESHIPS??? And why on Jesus' green Earth would they send their troops into battle armed with axes and spears when they have the technology to build frikking spaceships, for fuck's sake!!! It's like if we were still using swords and shit when we are able to send probes to Mars.
for all we know those ships could have been travelling to Azeroth since the WotA

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Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
This is correct, so that is one question answered.

But why did they not seek to return there afterwards? Who knows? Might be that in the Third War when they arrived they realized their presence would draw the attention of the night elves one way or another, so they decided to go to Hyjal first?

I would really like to see ARM's or Marthen's take on this.
Besides of Legion kinda retconning everything from WC3 regarding the Lost Islands....they kinda didnt even need it.
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