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  #26  
Old 03-28-2014, 11:01 PM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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Racism!
Warcraft lore summed up in one word.
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  #27  
Old 03-28-2014, 11:40 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Racism!
Worse yet is it's really shallow racism.

They don't even make up stereotypes really they just call each other names.
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  #28  
Old 03-28-2014, 11:45 PM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Worse yet is it's really shallow racism.

They don't even make up stereotypes really they just call each other names.
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  #29  
Old 03-28-2014, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Worse yet is it's really shallow racism.

They don't even make up stereotypes really they just call each other names.
Any stereotype would probably hit pretty close to the mark. Diversity isn't really Warcraft's strong-suit.
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  #30  
Old 03-28-2014, 11:53 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Valtheria View Post
To be honest, the Horde never had a good reason to fight the Alliance.
Actually Horde players had several reasons to mistrust the Alliance in vanilla.

Orcs: Daelin's unprovoked attack.
Trolls: Kul'tiras persecuting them on their original island, then Daelin burning their villages in Echo Isles.
Tauren: Daelin, again, as well as the Dwarves attacking the tauren in several Mulgore and Barren quests.
Forsaken: I'll give you Sylvanas, who killed Garithos(even though he was a jerk, Sylvanas shot first). But a few of the later arisen forsaken do mention being driven out first by their former friends and family.

Mists Of Pandaria didn't even try to have any conflicts initiated by the Alliance.
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  #31  
Old 03-28-2014, 11:54 PM
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Any stereotype would probably hit pretty close to the mark. Diversity isn't really Warcraft's strong-suit.
I'll have you know that I studied and graduated from the finest academies in Silvermoon to become a SHADOWMAGE OF THE TRUE HORDE! LOK'TAR OGAR! VICTORY FOR HELLSCREAM! DEATH TO THE ALLIANCE! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!
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  #32  
Old 03-29-2014, 12:04 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Actually Horde players had several reasons to mistrust the Alliance in vanilla.

Orcs: Daelin's unprovoked attack.
Trolls: Kul'tiras persecuting them on their original island, then Daelin burning their villages in Echo Isles.
Tauren: Daelin, again, as well as the Dwarves attacking the tauren in several Mulgore and Barren quests.
Forsaken: I'll give you Sylvanas, who killed Garithos(even though he was a jerk, Sylvanas shot first). But a few of the later arisen forsaken do mention being driven out first by their former friends and family.

Mists Of Pandaria didn't even try to have any conflicts initiated by the Alliance.
Those aren't good reasons.
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  #33  
Old 03-29-2014, 12:49 AM
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Those aren't good reasons.
Why are tauren being pushed out of their land and having their territorial integrity ignored by the dwarves not good reasons?

How is Daelin's attack and the men in the ruins of his base in durotar nt a good reason?

How is the darkspear's near annihilation not a good reason?
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  #34  
Old 03-29-2014, 12:52 AM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Why are tauren being pushed out of their land and having their territorial integrity ignored by the dwarves not good reasons?

How is Daelin's attack and the men in the ruins of his base in durotar nt a good reason?

How is the darkspear's near annihilation not a good reason?
Don't bother, that posters clearly delusional.
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  #35  
Old 03-29-2014, 04:08 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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I need to be liberated by the Alliance. Save me from the Horde's oppression!
I'll save you from all kind of oppression. By killing you.
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  #36  
Old 03-29-2014, 05:25 AM
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Those aren't good reasons.
Nah, they're just legitimate reasons you choose to conveniently ignore.
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  #37  
Old 03-29-2014, 09:10 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Sounds like the founding Quel'thalas.
I may be wrong, but wasn't Silvermoon City build on old abandoned ruins far from existing troll settlements? It's not like the Highborne were looking for a fight or anything.

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Why are tauren being pushed out of their land and having their territorial integrity ignored by the dwarves not good reasons?

How is Daelin's attack and the men in the ruins of his base in durotar nt a good reason?

How is the darkspear's near annihilation not a good reason?
1) The Dwarven presence in Mulgore is a very valid and fair point. The dwarves were disturbing the elements. However, originally in the RPGs, those dwarves had permission to be there and dig there by Cairne. I think that may have been a, 'Better to beg forgiveness thank to ask permission,' thing though. Regardless, the Tauren had good reason to be unhappy with the Alliance.

2) Daelin's attack was resolved, Jaina helping the Horde to kill her own father. That right there shows some serious dedication to peace. Jaina was willing to give up one of her own race, her father no less. Meanwhile Thrall has such a hard-on for making sure Orcs are never subjected to human, 'justice,' that he was about to fight Varian over who kills Garrosh, and refused to turn over anyone he found complicit or guilty of skinning the sentinels in Ashenvale. In short, Jaina and the Alliance worked with the Horde to end Daelin. You can be sore about Daelin having been there at all if you want, but the Alliance helped the Horde deal with that.

3) Because the Darkspear were already nearly annihilated. -Murlocs- had almost wiped them out, and that was long before Daelin showed up. While that's certainly more than enough to mistrust/hate the Alliance, I think the Darkspear were more upset that one of their own had betrayed them.



Long story short, the Horde had reasons to mistrust the Alliance. Plenty of them. Very few ever really become a plot point in Vanilla beyond justifying PvP mechanics.

Last edited by Vexander; 03-29-2014 at 09:19 AM..
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  #38  
Old 03-29-2014, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Why are tauren being pushed out of their land and having their territorial integrity ignored by the dwarves not good reasons?
Because compared to rampaging Centaur that the Tauren had been at war with for generations, dwarves that have absolutely no interest whatsoever in the Tauren in themselves would rank pretty low on the threat list.

Never mind that isolated dwarven settlements popping up every where for the sole purpose of digging things up and spitting the Tauren in the eye while they're at it is completely stupid.

Quote:
How is Daelin's attack and the men in the ruins of his base in durotar nt a good reason?
Daelin's attack did next to zero damage. It was actually a humiliating, one-sided defeat. That guy wasn't the least bit threatening. There's a reason why the Horde never calls him out as a grievance, because it just wasn't that big a deal. Matter of fact, anyone involved in that campaign from the Horde's perspective would be very proud of themselves and laugh about it.

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How is the darkspear's near annihilation not a good reason?
They'd suffered far worse at the hands of the Gurubashi and the Naga for centuries. Having their settlements bombed would be like Tuesday for them. Not to mention that the Darkspear of all people should know that Trolls are jerks and should be killed on sight.
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  #39  
Old 03-29-2014, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
They'd suffered far worse at the hands of the Gurubashi and the Naga for centuries. Having their settlements bombed would be like Tuesday for them. Not to mention that the Darkspear of all people should know that Trolls are jerks and should be killed on sight.
Yeah, narrowly avoiding extermination on two separate, consecutive occasions, both completely unprovoked, one ending in losing your ancestral home, and the other nearly so again, then fighting off further aggression for a subsequent decade, is absolutely no reason to be the least bit wary of someone.

I mean, the Darkspear's have to be awfully unreasonable to allow that to help shape their opinion of the Alliance.
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  #40  
Old 03-29-2014, 10:12 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Yeah, narrowly avoiding extermination on two separate, consecutive occasions, both completely unprovoked, one ending in losing your ancestral home, and the other nearly so again, then fighting off further aggression for a subsequent decade, is absolutely no reason to be the least bit wary of someone.

I mean, the Darkspear's have to be awfully unreasonable to allow that to help shape their opinion of the Alliance.
Indeed. It's not like Vol'jin wasn't aware that Daelin's actions were against the express wishes of the Alliance forces which he'd allied with on Hyjal or anything. Or that the leader of said forces actively aided the Horde in killing the said aggressor.

Why is it Horde posters expect, 'All to be forgiven,' in cases like Putress or Garrosh when they, 'Help,' the Alliance take down those bad guys who caused the Alliance so much distress, but the moment the shoe is on the other foot its, 'Justification to hate the Alliance forever and ever?'
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  #41  
Old 03-29-2014, 10:14 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Westlee View Post
spitting the Tauren in the eye while they're at it is completely stupid.
You mean stupid like all the other arbitrary conflicts that got started?

Like Forsaken being in ashenvale murdering sleeping druids for no reason?


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Daelin's attack did next to zero damage. It was actually a humiliating, one-sided defeat. That guy wasn't the least bit threatening. There's a reason why the Horde never calls him out as a grievance, because it just wasn't that big a deal. Matter of fact, anyone involved in that campaign from the Horde's perspective would be very proud of themselves and laugh about it.
He fucking burned down razor hill you ass.

And the Horde never calls it out because like everything else in WC3 Blizzard barely brings it up if it's not "The scourge"

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Not to mention that the Darkspear of all people should know that Trolls are jerks and should be killed on sight.
You really are trolling aren't you.
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  #42  
Old 03-29-2014, 10:21 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
Indeed. It's not like Vol'jin wasn't aware that Daelin's actions were against the express wishes of the Alliance forces which he'd allied with on Hyjal or anything. Or that the leader of said forces actively aided the Horde in killing the said aggressor.

Why is it Horde posters expect, 'All to be forgiven,' in cases like Putress or Garrosh when they, 'Help,' the Alliance take down those bad guys who caused the Alliance so much distress, but the moment the shoe is on the other foot its, 'Justification to hate the Alliance forever and ever?'
I didn't say anything about hate. I was still talking about reasons to just distrust.

And last I checked, the Alliance still (canonically) held the Horde responsible for Putress's actions and had actively punished the Horde for his actions. If the shoe were truly on the other foot, as you seem to believe, then I'd be advocating for the rest of the Alliance to be actively punished for Daelin's actions.

I'm just saying that circa Vanilla WoW, the Darkspear, the Tauren and yes, even the Orcs, had some perfectly understandable reasons not to trust the Alliance entirely.
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  #43  
Old 03-29-2014, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
You mean stupid like all the other arbitrary conflicts that got started?

Like Forsaken being in ashenvale murdering sleeping druids for no reason?
That was for science and done discreetly.

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He fucking burned down razor hill you ass.

And the Horde never calls it out because like everything else in WC3 Blizzard barely brings it up if it's not "The scourge"
And yet he didn't so much as lay an eye on Ogrimmar. Razor Hill was nothing.

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You really are trolling aren't you.
Who was it that declared war on every troll tribe on the planet?
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  #44  
Old 03-29-2014, 10:30 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
I didn't say anything about hate. I was still talking about reasons to just distrust.

And last I checked, the Alliance still (canonically) held the Horde responsible for Putress's actions and had actively punished the Horde for his actions. If the shoe were truly on the other foot, as you seem to believe, then I'd be advocating for the rest of the Alliance to be actively punished for Daelin's actions.

I'm just saying that circa Vanilla WoW, the Darkspear, the Tauren and yes, even the Orcs, had some perfectly understandable reasons not to trust the Alliance entirely.
I certainly agree with the mistrust. However, as far as Putress goes, I think the Alliance has some sincere justification. Who would have guessed Daelin would ignore Jaina's words or the evidence in front of his own eyes? However, only an idiot would have thought Varimathras would never betray the Horde or that the Blight developed by the Forsaken, even though made intentionally to work on the living as well as the undead, would never be used on the living.
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  #45  
Old 03-29-2014, 10:30 AM
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Saying the Horde has no reason to fight the Alliance is like saying there's no reason to climb a mountain.

There is, and the reason is that it's because it's there.

Of course, Blizzard's stupid decisions about turning Alliance people eeeeevil - and having them attack the poor wibble Horde so the dumb Horde fanboys can feel justified in feeling persecuted for being special snowflakes, despite the Horde returning the favor three-fold almost every single time - doesn't help matters at all.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #46  
Old 03-29-2014, 10:33 AM
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Who was it that declared war on every troll tribe on the planet?
With the exception of the races of the Horde (in all its incarnations save the True and presumably Iron Horde), everyone has declared war on every Troll tribe on the planet at some point in history.
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  #47  
Old 03-29-2014, 10:34 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
Saying the Horde has no reason to fight the Alliance is like saying there's no reason to climb a mountain.

There is, and the reason is that it's because it's there.

Of course, Blizzard's stupid decisions about turning Alliance people eeeeevil - and having them attack the poor wibble Horde so the dumb Horde fanboys can feel justified in feeling persecuted for being special snowflakes, despite the Horde returning the favor three-fold almost every single time - doesn't help matters at all.
The problem is that the Alliance takes care of its shit. You didn't see Fandral stirring up problems with the Horde even though he was easily capable of being the Night Elven Garithos. Speaking of Garithos, you have NO idea how much I WISH he hadn't been killed off in WC3. Imagine -him- around with Varian missing during vanilla? The Horde would have REALLY been given some reasons to dislike/mistrust/hate the Alliance.

Really, the minute someone in the Alliance starts going bad, the Alliance handles it. -Rarely- do such individuals manage to succeed or get far enough to even -begin- affecting the Horde.
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  #48  
Old 03-29-2014, 10:40 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
Saying the Horde has no reason to fight the Alliance is like saying there's no reason to climb a mountain.

There is, and the reason is that it's because it's there.

Of course, Blizzard's stupid decisions about turning Alliance people eeeeevil - and having them attack the poor wibble Horde so the dumb Horde fanboys can feel justified in feeling persecuted for being special snowflakes, despite the Horde returning the favor three-fold almost every single time - doesn't help matters at all.
So it's perfectly fine for the Horde to regularly lose its shit and provoke the alliance but if the Alliance were to do the same it'd be bad writing...?
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  #49  
Old 03-29-2014, 10:41 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
I didn't say anything about hate. I was still talking about reasons to just distrust.

And last I checked, the Alliance still (canonically) held the Horde responsible for Putress's actions and had actively punished the Horde for his actions. If the shoe were truly on the other foot, as you seem to believe, then I'd be advocating for the rest of the Alliance to be actively punished for Daelin's actions.

I'm just saying that circa Vanilla WoW, the Darkspear, the Tauren and yes, even the Orcs, had some perfectly understandable reasons not to trust the Alliance entirely.
The Alliance should hold the Horde responsible for allowing it to happen in the first place. First for aiding in the development of the plague and for not keeping the Forsaken on a tight leash.

Daelin popping up out of nowhere after probably months of no word from the Eastern Kingdoms and him being a wee bit skeptical of the Horde turning over a new leaf is entirely reasonably. I mean, if Jaina signed some kind of treaty and claimed that it binded everyone in the Alliance, that might give the Horde some room to hold her accountable, but at this point Theramore and the Eastern Kingdoms are two entirely different entities.

So, sure, the Horde can hold the Alliance responsible for Daelin's actions, but they can't pretend it was some kind of a betrayal of trust or violation of a treaty, since the Alliance never signed any such thing, and as far as the Alliance was concerned, the Horde were rampaging monsters that staged a prison break and no one can argue that they had reason to think otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
With the exception of the races of the Horde (in all its incarnations save the True and presumably Iron Horde), everyone has declared war on every Troll tribe on the planet at some point in history.
Including every troll tribe!

Last edited by Westlee; 03-29-2014 at 10:44 AM..
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  #50  
Old 03-29-2014, 12:49 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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So it's perfectly fine for the Horde to regularly lose its shit and provoke the alliance but if the Alliance were to do the same it'd be bad writing...?
The orcs have been established as being from a #savage world with a #savage civilization, and have also drunk steroids so powerful it affected everyone around them. Trolls have always been #savage. And of course we know how fucking evil the Forsaken were established at the start. It's only the natural that they'd be aggressive assholes, especially given the "resourceless" circumstances they've ended up in.

That said, I do admit that I find the "#evil #savage orc" stereotype easy to swallow, and it is a bias of mine.

On the third hand, none of this shit should have happened in the first place, because fuck the devs and their hard-on for a past they should have never tried to bring back.
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2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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