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  #26  
Old 04-15-2014, 10:58 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
And all we ever have is the Frostwolf clan being the only clan of orcs with anything resembling a moral compass and Eitrigg / Saurfang being old vets that learned their lesson but utterly failed to convey it to anyone else.
They didn't learn anything. They just got old. Murder and slaughter wasn't fun anymore. There are other orcs just like them, veterans that are proud of their service in the Horde, but got tired of fighting all the time and retired. They'd had their fill, their day in the sun, and moved on to a more mundane existence.

Tired of fighting =/= remorseful.
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  #27  
Old 04-15-2014, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
And yes, the Laughing Skulls seem to be rather crazy (especially in battle, at least). They also seem to be resisting the Iron Horde mainly because they just want to be left alone to do their own thing in their part of Frostfire without other clans butting in and trying to make them change their identity.
Are they in Frostfire?

I got the impression that they might show up in later zones...
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  #28  
Old 04-15-2014, 11:03 PM
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I find the biggest problem is that the orcs do not have a view of society as a state. There's clans- basically large families- and there's the "Horde" which is more like an army that has areas under occupation. But the idea of a state organized by laws and government as opposed to simple mandates from a supreme leader and a military hierarchy is foreign to the Horde.


I still think the best way for the SoO to end would be the Alliance and Trolls having joint occupation of Orgrimmar a la post-WWII Berlin. Force the Orcs to live under a foreign imposed, state-oriented government, but as a society rather than individual slaves.

Since that's out of the question, we can only hope that Vol'jin starts to change the way the Horde is run: while the Darkspear always lived in a tribal system of government, the Gurubashi and Zandalari empires seemed to be state-oriented. Perhaps Vol'jin could mold the Horde into an empire in the mold of the troll empires rather than a roving army: say what you want about them but they've existed in a more stable form for many centuries more than the Orcish horde.
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  #29  
Old 04-15-2014, 11:09 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I still think the best way for the SoO to end would be the Alliance and Trolls having joint occupation of Orgrimmar a la post-WWII Berlin. Force the Orcs to live under a foreign imposed, state-oriented government, but as a society rather than individual slaves.
That would be a really cool reinterpretation of Orgrimmar. Plenty of intrigue, with some black market smuggling thrown in for good measure.
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  #30  
Old 04-15-2014, 11:10 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Orcs are #savage, that's why they're orcs. If I was a kor'kron, the most important thing to me would be dying with honor, and following the Warchief to the death. They see themselves as a constant in the system, the unchanging variable. So please, do not recon n an exodus of kor'kron on moral obligation. It makes the determination, resolve, respect to tradition, trust in the system they made their blood oaths to, and the very title they bear; utterly meaningless, thus truly making the orcs we did fight, "evil".

Fighting and dying for Warchief Garrosh was an honor, and that's all that mattered.
So maybe they could've voiced some of that in the same way Nazgrim did.


Or y'know we could've seen something in the non-Kor'kron orcs.
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  #31  
Old 04-15-2014, 11:10 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Darkspear are such a tiny population, even with Siege, orcs totally outnumber them. As such, Vol'jin would not be able to pull that off in the first place.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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  #32  
Old 04-15-2014, 11:24 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Darkspear are such a tiny population, even with Siege, orcs totally outnumber them. As such, Vol'jin would not be able to pull that off in the first place.
With the tauren, goblins and blood elves backing him he could do it. The orcs, as a race, should be in the shithouse as far as respect goes. no one not an orc in the horde should be willing to let any orc anywhere near the reins of power again for quite awhile. The orcs should have to earn their position in the horde again by work, not just because they are orcs.
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  #33  
Old 04-15-2014, 11:25 PM
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Darkspear are such a tiny population, even with Siege, orcs totally outnumber them. As such, Vol'jin would not be able to pull that off in the first place.
Well, the Darkspear rebellion included more than JUST the Darkspear. With the trolls, loyalist tauren and goblins, and maybe some Blood Elves (the Forsaken are out for obvious reasons) they might be able to strong-arm the orcs into complacency. The Goblins and Blood Elves are great, too, since they're both highly developed state-oriented societies as well.

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
That would be a really cool reinterpretation of Orgrimmar. Plenty of intrigue, with some black market smuggling thrown in for good measure.
Yeah, and what sucks is when I pointed it out to some relevant parties they all agreed it was an awesome idea but too late/too resource intensive to do (even though it'd just be replacing the orc city guards with humans and trolls like they did in the Undercity).
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  #34  
Old 04-15-2014, 11:27 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Well, the Darkspear rebellion included more than JUST the Darkspear. With the trolls, loyalist tauren and goblins, and maybe some Blood Elves (the Forsaken are out for obvious reasons) they might be able to strong-arm the orcs into complacency. The Goblins and Blood Elves are great, too, since they're both highly developed state-oriented societies as well.
Blood Elves don't even care about the Horde that much, they're just there because they have nowhere else to go right now.

Why should the goblins care about the orcs, considering their own racial leader has been far worse then Garrosh ever has?


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Yeah, and what sucks is when I pointed it out to some relevant parties they all agreed it was an awesome idea but too late/too resource intensive to do (even though it'd just be replacing the orc city guards with humans and trolls like they did in the Undercity).
Human guards in Orgrimmar, no. For one, how would that work for PVP raids?

Honestly the entire Siege Of Orgrimmar was utter trash.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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  #35  
Old 04-15-2014, 11:44 PM
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Blood Elves don't even care about the Horde that much, they're just there because they have nowhere else to go right now.

Why should the goblins care about the orcs, considering their own racial leader has been far worse then Garrosh ever has?
Profit! The long con! Transform the Horde into a consumer-oriented society to continuously line their own pockets!




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Human guards in Orgrimmar, no. For one, how would that work for PVP raids?

Honestly the entire Siege Of Orgrimmar was utter trash.
Because these human soldiers have been assigned to protect Orgrimmar? AFAIK the player-raids on cities, if they have any canon status, are basically raids of unorganized mercenaries attempting to wreak havoc. If a bunch of American mercenaries invaded West Berlin, the American soldiers there would stop them.
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  #36  
Old 04-15-2014, 11:49 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Profit! The long con! Transform the Horde into a consumer-oriented society to continuously line their own pockets!
I doubt they'd be that invested in it considering they have their own problems.

And you didn't mention the Blood elves.

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Because these human soldiers have been assigned to protect Orgrimmar? AFAIK the player-raids on cities, if they have any canon status, are basically raids of unorganized mercenaries attempting to wreak havoc. If a bunch of American mercenaries invaded West Berlin, the American soldiers there would stop them.
Players get achievements as Champions of the Alliance, and a letter of commendation for raiding enemy capitals like Orgrimmar. That'd be one schizophrenic Alliance, having their soldiers defend the enemy capital, while also encouraging their best guys to lay siege to said capital.

It'd also ruin the thematics of the Horde.

What makes the Siege Of Orgrimmar such an idiotically written scenario is that it pleases no one.

They made the Alliance playerbase too angry at the Horde in Mists Of Pandaria, so they end up feeling like idiots for walking out, and that the Horde got easy.

They made the Horde playerbase feel like crap, particularly orc players, with the player character committing constant atrocities, then turning against Garrosh last minute reason.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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  #37  
Old 04-15-2014, 11:50 PM
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That would be a really cool reinterpretation of Orgrimmar. Plenty of intrigue, with some black market smuggling thrown in for good measure.
How's that supposed to work though? The Alliance administers a portion of the city, and the Orcs, what with the whole "not big on being slaves to the Alliance again" dealio, decide to stick around and not cross over to the section being run by the Horde?

Unless the Alliance also controls, say, all of Durotar, what reason would the Orcs have to not just walk the whole 3 meters to the other side of town where they can ignore the Alliance?
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  #38  
Old 04-15-2014, 11:54 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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How's that supposed to work though? The Alliance administers a portion of the city, and the Orcs, what with the whole "not big on being slaves to the Alliance again" dealio, decide to stick around and not cross over to the section being run by the Horde?

Unless the Alliance also controls, say, all of Durotar, what reason would the Orcs have to not just walk the whole 3 meters to the other side of town where they can ignore the Alliance?
Not to mention it'd be a constant slap in the face to the Horde, and orc playerbase.

I imagine many Roleplayers would outright quit.
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  #39  
Old 04-16-2014, 12:08 AM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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How's that supposed to work though? The Alliance administers a portion of the city, and the Orcs, what with the whole "not big on being slaves to the Alliance again" dealio, decide to stick around and not cross over to the section being run by the Horde?

Unless the Alliance also controls, say, all of Durotar, what reason would the Orcs have to not just walk the whole 3 meters to the other side of town where they can ignore the Alliance?
Actually, Berlin is less of a good analogy as much as Vienna after the war. Civilians can move freely but the areas are policed by foreign soldiers and the area is administered by foreign appointed ministers. The Alliance would likely be put in charge of the locations of industry and warfare like the goblin slums and Valley of Strength while the trolls would control the others, and maybe you'd have a human in Grommash hold (who wouldn't do jack during a raid, like Malfurion).

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Not to mention it'd be a constant slap in the face to the Horde, and orc playerbase.
That didn't happen when the Orcs controlled Undercity, though. And frankly, after all the slaps to the face of the Alliance, the Horde could stand to be taken down a peg... or they could start identifying more with Vol'jin.

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I imagine many Roleplayers would outright quit.
All five of them?
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  #40  
Old 04-16-2014, 12:12 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Actually, Berlin is less of a good analogy as much as Vienna after the war. Civilians can move freely but the areas are policed by foreign soldiers and the area is administered by foreign appointed ministers. The Alliance would likely be put in charge of the locations of industry and warfare like the goblin slums and Valley of Strength while the trolls would control the others, and maybe you'd have a human in Grommash hold (who wouldn't do jack during a raid, like Malfurion).
I was thinking of Vienna as well, mostly because I like the idea of The Third Man a la WoW. You could have Forsaken con men selling plague vials in the guise of black market medicine, humans trying to track down and arrest non-combatant orcs who were related to infamous figures in Garrosh's Horde, and so forth.
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  #41  
Old 04-16-2014, 12:14 AM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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That didn't happen when the Orcs controlled Undercity, though.
Sylvanas was still in charge, and there were still Forsaken guards even if they were outnumbered by orcs.

Additionally orcs are still a number of the same faction, unlike humans occupying Orgrimmar.

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And frankly, after all the slaps to the face of the Alliance, the Horde could stand to be taken down a peg...
And you utterly lost me, parts of Cataclysm, and the entirity Mists of Pandaria was a slap in the face to the Horde playerbase.]

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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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  #42  
Old 04-16-2014, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Sylvanas was still in charge, and there were still Forsaken guards even if they were outnumbered by orcs.

Additionally orcs are still a number of the same faction, unlike humans occupying Orgrimmar.
And the trolls would be there too, and Vol'jin would be the faction leader. I don't see your problem.



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And you utterly lost me, parts of Cataclysm, and the entirity Mists of Pandaria was a slap in the face to the Horde playerbase.]

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See, I get the impression that Cata and MoP were finally giving the Horde the stuff that they asked for, it's just the players didn't realize how terrible and poorly thought out their requests were.
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  #43  
Old 04-16-2014, 12:26 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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See, I get the impression that Cata and MoP were finally giving the Horde the stuff that they asked for, it's just the players didn't realize how terrible and poorly thought out their requests were.
How do you figure?

If people wanted us to be evil, it only affected the Orcs and rather than the doomhammer type stuff people wanted we got a parody of WC1-2 orcs which the rest of the Horde never joined in on.

If the players wanted a good Horde, everyone who wasn't the orcs looked whiny, incompetent, and pacifistic.
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  #44  
Old 04-16-2014, 12:27 AM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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And the trolls would be there too, and Vol'jin would be the faction leader. I don't see your problem.
Along with humans. And the Darkspear trolls being blue orcs rather then having their own identity, and the orcs would be identity-less badguys.

And the orcs don't even have a faction leader at this point.


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See, I get the impression that Cata and MoP were finally giving the Horde the stuff that they asked for, it's just the players didn't realize how terrible and poorly thought out their requests were.
No one wanted:

* Garrosh as racial leader, or his constant flipflop between characterization.
* Gallywix as racial leader.
* The entire orcish race becoming evil with no explanation.
* The Darkspear losing their identity.
* Constantly losing to the Alliance in MOP
* Incompetent, and evil leadership.

If anything, the Alliance playerbase wanted the horde to be evil, while Horde players wanted the opposite. In an MMO enviorment, few players want to be evil.

The Horde playerbase has been shitted on by Blizzard enough. Yes, the Alliance playerbase has been shitted on plenty as well, but shitting further on the Horde playerbase would accomplish nothing for them.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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  #45  
Old 04-16-2014, 12:28 AM
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You got Doomhammer. You just didn't get the reconstructed, retcon Doomhammer. You got the Doomhammer that couldn't beat a septuagenarian in a fair fight and had to call in friends to win a dual.
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  #46  
Old 04-16-2014, 12:30 AM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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You got Doomhammer. You just didn't get the reconstructed, retcon Doomhammer. You got the Doomhammer that couldn't beat a septuagenarian in a fair fight and had to call in friends to win a dual.
Having played Warcraft II extensively, I have to call you out.

Old school Doomhammer never met Lothar in combat to begin with, he was elsewhere while his minions killed him.

Doomhammer was also clever and diplomatic when he needed to be, making deals with Alterac, the Shadow Council, and capable of forging strong Alliances such as with the Forest Trolls.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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  #47  
Old 04-16-2014, 12:51 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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You got Doomhammer. You just didn't get the reconstructed, retcon Doomhammer. You got the Doomhammer that couldn't beat a septuagenarian in a fair fight and had to call in friends to win a dual.
Doomhammer was smarter than Garrosh and Vol'jin is pathetic compared to Zul'jin.


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  #48  
Old 04-16-2014, 01:18 AM
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You got Doomhammer. You just didn't get the reconstructed, retcon Doomhammer. You got the Doomhammer that couldn't beat a septuagenarian in a fair fight and had to call in friends to win a dual.
Who the fuck asked for Doomhammer?
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  #49  
Old 04-16-2014, 01:21 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Who the fuck asked for Doomhammer?
A few trolls on the forums who wanted an evil horde again and felt Thrall's horde was a bunch of hippies who Blizzard listened to in the most warped way imaginable.
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  #50  
Old 04-16-2014, 01:28 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Funny how whether it's lore, gameplay or balance, players habitually assume that if they don't like it, it's because Blizzard is planning their changes exclusively based upon the demands of their "enemies" on the forums.

One player-speculated race possibility gets into Cataclysm, and suddenly everyone's convinced that Blizzard fired CDev and replaced it with one guy copy-pasting ideas directly from the forums.

Classic "everything I hate that happens is conveniently traced back to the people whom I already hated in the first place" syndrome.
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