Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > Scrolls of Lore > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11651  
Old 11-10-2020, 09:09 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

Elune
Ruinshin's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 21,154

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
I don't think making jokes about white people in the way she did is remotely comparable to racism regarding black people due to the cultural context.

Also: SHE'S WHITE.
Racism is racism.

She's extremely racist.
__________________
Fucking Epic :X
Reply With Quote
  #11652  
Old 11-19-2020, 09:36 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,546

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Racism is racism.
I don't agree.

Offhand jokes about how white people fucked up the world through colonialism or are out of touch with social developments are not the same as people who are racist thinking someone else is literally subhuman.


Context matters.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #11653  
Old 11-19-2020, 10:20 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

Problemsolver
Aneurysm's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Here, there, and everywhere.
Posts: 9,327

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
I don't agree.

Offhand jokes about how white people fucked up the world through colonialism or are out of touch with social developments are not the same as people who are racist thinking someone else is literally subhuman.


Context matters.
Those are not off-hand jokes. And even if they were jokes, they'd be racist and sexist jokes, and pretty bad ones at that. Jokes are supposed to have a set-up and punchline, which these tweets don't have. They are simply racist and sexist comments.

Imagine someone saying "Black people must be stopped." or "Dear Arabs, get your shit in order.", in what world would they be considered jokes as opposed to racist and deeply bigoted comments?

You're wearing your bias on your sleeves dismissing this the way you are. Especially your "SHE'S WHITE" comment, as if that would give someone a free pass to be racist towards white people.

So yeah, nah, you're wrong and racism is racism.
__________________
My love for you is like a truck, berserker.
Would you like some making fuck, berserker?
Reply With Quote
  #11654  
Old 11-21-2020, 08:02 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,546

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post
Those are not off-hand jokes. And even if they were jokes, they'd be racist and sexist jokes, and pretty bad ones at that. Jokes are supposed to have a set-up and punchline, which these tweets don't have. They are simply racist and sexist comments.

Imagine someone saying "Black people must be stopped." or "Dear Arabs, get your shit in order.", in what world would they be considered jokes as opposed to racist and deeply bigoted comments?

You're wearing your bias on your sleeves dismissing this the way you are. Especially your "SHE'S WHITE" comment, as if that would give someone a free pass to be racist towards white people.

So yeah, nah, you're wrong and racism is racism.
1. So you don't think these are jokes and believe that Madeleine Roux dearly and sincerely hates white people? If that's true Aneurysm then I don't know what to tell you.

2. Do you think those comments would be the same if they were said by a black or arab person? Context matters.

3. There's a palpable difference between making offhand twitter comments about ones own race over the course of years and -actually being racist-.


None of this is a concern about racism or discrimination it's just a "gotcha" by Asmongold against a writer he doesn't like.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #11655  
Old 11-21-2020, 09:54 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

Problemsolver
Aneurysm's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Here, there, and everywhere.
Posts: 9,327

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
1. So you don't think these are jokes and believe that Madeleine Roux dearly and sincerely hates white people? If that's true Aneurysm then I don't know what to tell you.
No, I don't think those are jokes. I think they are racist and sexist comments and the product of an increasingly divisive social atmosphere in which it has become perfectly acceptable to shit on white people.

Do I think Roux hate all white people? No, she probably doesn't. But that doesn't mean she can't make distasteful comments on the matter. And apparently she understands how tactless they were, trying to sweep it under the rug by claiming the tweets were photoshopped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
2. Do you think those comments would be the same if they were said by a black or arab person? Context matters.
Yes, I believe comments such as those would be just as racist, no matter who posted them, and no matter the target. Because...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
3. There's a palpable difference between making offhand twitter comments about ones own race over the course of years and -actually being racist-.
... it doesn't matter what skin colour or ethnicity you have. Racism isn't about punching up, down, or sideways. Racism is about punching, period.


Let me ask you this, Sarm; would it be okay to shit on Muslims today for colonizing and "fucking up the Middle East and Iberia" back during the expansion of Islam? Would it be okay to shit on Scandinavians today for colonizing and "fucking up Britain" during the Viking age? Would it be okay to shit on Han Chinese today for colonizing and "fucking up East Asia" during their expansion? Would it be okay to shit on Turks today for colonizing and "fucking up the Mediterranean and Arabian peninsula" during Ottoman times? Would it be okay to shit on Mongols today for colonizing and "fucking up much of the known world" during their expansion?

Is it okay to shit on entire demographics of people for things their ancestors did?

No, it isn't. We all have awful ancestors who fucked their neighbours over at some point, no matter where you're from. And we don't move past it by continuing to shit on people, that only makes the pendulum swing harder.

But by all means keep on rationalizing racism and sexism the way you are, and be part of the problem you claim to stand against all you want.
__________________
My love for you is like a truck, berserker.
Would you like some making fuck, berserker?
Reply With Quote
  #11656  
Old 11-21-2020, 07:35 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,546

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post
No, I don't think those are jokes. I think they are racist and sexist comments and the product of an increasingly divisive social atmosphere in which it has become perfectly acceptable to shit on white people.

Do I think Roux hate all white people? No, she probably doesn't. But that doesn't mean she can't make distasteful comments on the matter. And apparently she understands how tactless they were, trying to sweep it under the rug by claiming the tweets were photoshopped.



Yes, I believe comments such as those would be just as racist, no matter who posted them, and no matter the target. Because...



... it doesn't matter what skin colour or ethnicity you have. Racism isn't about punching up, down, or sideways. Racism is about punching, period.


Let me ask you this, Sarm; would it be okay to shit on Muslims today for colonizing and "fucking up the Middle East and Iberia" back during the expansion of Islam? Would it be okay to shit on Scandinavians today for colonizing and "fucking up Britain" during the Viking age? Would it be okay to shit on Han Chinese today for colonizing and "fucking up East Asia" during their expansion? Would it be okay to shit on Turks today for colonizing and "fucking up the Mediterranean and Arabian peninsula" during Ottoman times? Would it be okay to shit on Mongols today for colonizing and "fucking up much of the known world" during their expansion?

Is it okay to shit on entire demographics of people for things their ancestors did?

No, it isn't. We all have awful ancestors who fucked their neighbours over at some point, no matter where you're from. And we don't move past it by continuing to shit on people, that only makes the pendulum swing harder.

But by all means keep on rationalizing racism and sexism the way you are, and be part of the problem you claim to stand against all you want.
1. your distinction between 'joke' and 'comment' feels specious. If 'racism is racism', then You either think she's sincerely hateful or she's not.

I agree they were tactless, I also think people are massively overreacting, both can be true.

2. So you think black people are racist when they use the N word in music videos or comedy? Do you think the 'naga stole my bike' joke was racism? If it was, do you think everyone who found it funny was racism?

3. Depends, is it a Muslim or Scandinavian, or Chinese person making each of those respective statements? Beyond that, You're making a false equivalence, look at even the closest one of those events and they're considerably different in timescale from US Slavery, the civil rights movement, or even the -active and ongoing- inequality in the US.

4. I think you're being hyperbolic with 'shit on', she said tactless but -incredibly mild- things once every few months over the course of years.

That is not remotely enough to be fired over.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #11657  
Old Yesterday, 05:48 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

Problemsolver
Aneurysm's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Here, there, and everywhere.
Posts: 9,327

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
1. your distinction between 'joke' and 'comment' feels specious. If 'racism is racism', then You either think she's sincerely hateful or she's not.
I think the comments in question were sincerely hateful. As I said, jokes require set-up, and punchlines. Roux didn't offer any context to her comments. It's you who put it into the context of being witty anti-imperialistic social commentary. And there's a big difference between criticising flawed political systems, and shitting over entire demographics of people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
2. So you think black people are racist when they use the N word in music videos or comedy? Do you think the 'naga stole my bike' joke was racism? If it was, do you think everyone who found it funny was racism?
Now that's a false equivalence. But I'll indulge you.

I don't think words alone are racist. When "nigga/nigger" is used to offend, it's racist. But it can also be used in ways that are affectionate and friendly. As you say, context matters.

But the "naga stole my bike"-joke arguably is racist, yes. However that's also quite obviously a joke, crude as it may be. And crude jokes can be funny for sure. And maybe it requires a bit of racist sentiment to find jokes such as that funny. Nobody is perfect, after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
3. Depends, is it a Muslim or Scandinavian, or Chinese person making each of those respective statements? Beyond that, You're making a false equivalence, look at even the closest one of those events and they're considerably different in timescale from US Slavery, the civil rights movement, or even the -active and ongoing- inequality in the US.
The Viking and Mongolian invasions are far enough back in history for us not to experience significant ripple effects, I'll agree.

But Ottoman imperialism lasted until WWI, so that's even closer in time than trans-Atlantic slavery, and it has shaped a lot of the social atmosphere that can be felt in Eastern Europe to this day for example. The Ottomans also conducted slavery into the 1900's, up until the fall of their empire. And China is currently being controlled by an extremely oppressive Han Chinese government, and they're conducting slavery still, what with their sweat-shop industries, as well as commiting genocide on people groups within their borders. And let's not get started on the flaws of Islamic expansionism and ideologies, whose effects undeniably linger still.

Regardless, it's racism, or at the very least vitriolic bigotry to make broad, sweeping statements about entire demographics or ethnicities based on crimes committed by governments and people in power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
4. I think you're being hyperbolic with 'shit on', she said tactless but -incredibly mild- things once every few months over the course of years.
The fact that they are comments repeated over the course of years makes it worse than if it would be a one-off thing, and it says a lot about her sentiments.

And I think it's you who's being out of touch and ignorant to social developments outside of your narrow US-centric world-view.


I'm not even bothered by her comments themselves, but by the hypocricy of defending her. The "woke" crowd thinking it's alright to be offensive towards some people, while trying to shut people down when the same is done towards demographics they deem unjustly treated. It's two-faced and doesn't do anything but continue the cycle of shit-flinging.
__________________
My love for you is like a truck, berserker.
Would you like some making fuck, berserker?
Reply With Quote
  #11658  
Old Yesterday, 08:24 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,176

Default

The idea that only one group of people are "allowed" to say a word, and that any other people are "not allowed" to say the word, is ridiculous and idiotic.

I had two co-workers in their early twenties. They were best friends and would compose rap music and sing it together. One of these friends would routinely use the n-word in the songs. The other did not, because he socially wasn't allowed to.

Idiocy.
Reply With Quote
  #11659  
Old Today, 10:45 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,546

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post
I'm not even bothered by her comments themselves, but by the hypocrisy of defending her. The "woke" crowd thinking it's alright to be offensive towards some people, while trying to shut people down when the same is done towards demographics they deem unjustly treated. It's two-faced and doesn't do anything but continue the cycle of shit-flinging.
I'm judging her by a us standard because she's a US citizen and so am I. We have different race relations than Europe.

Also, Witty Anti-imperialistic social commentary is what most of twitter IS that's not something I'm imagining or projecting. My understanding is that most of these tweets were in response to dumb political shit old white US politicians are doing.


I think you're making assumptions about a person out of context, I don't see what she's said as all that different from Grackle's example with the co-workers and rap music.

EDIT: Also not talking about just trans atlantic slave trade, you've got to keep in mind how recent a lot of civil rights issues are in the US

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
The idea that only one group of people are "allowed" to say a word, and that any other people are "not allowed" to say the word, is ridiculous and idiotic.

I had two co-workers in their early twenties. They were best friends and would compose rap music and sing it together. One of these friends would routinely use the n-word in the songs. The other did not, because he socially wasn't allowed to.

Idiocy.
It's not idiotic it's realistic, life isn't fair and historical context matters. If one coworker can use the word in their lyrics due to historical context and the other can't then that's it.

No one's stopping white guys from using 'cracker' or w/e in their raps if they're so desperate for lyrics.



This really isn't that hard. People can trash their own race all they want but can't use slurs about other races. Why is this considered so 'idiotic' or unreasonable?
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #11660  
Old Today, 12:59 PM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

Problemsolver
Aneurysm's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Here, there, and everywhere.
Posts: 9,327

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
This really isn't that hard. People can trash their own race all they want but can't use slurs about other races. Why is this considered so 'idiotic' or unreasonable?
It's idiotic because racism is racism. And either you're okay with racism, or you aren't.

But at this point I'm going to do what Ruin did and peace out, because apparently it's too complicated for you to understand, and there's obviously no point in trying to convince you otherwise.
__________________
My love for you is like a truck, berserker.
Would you like some making fuck, berserker?
Reply With Quote
  #11661  
Old Today, 01:52 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,176

Shadow Orb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
It's not idiotic it's realistic
Realistically, when I hear someone use that word, I'm not going to do a quick scan of your skin color or look through your family tree in order to determine if you get a thumbs up.

Hilariously illustrated in that episode of Blackish, where Andre found out his daughter's friends were ALL using the n-word casually, so at the end of the episode he sits them all down to try to determine, one by one, which friends are okay to say it.

"And you... you..."
(states at boy with a vague tan? skin color)
"...I'm gonna have to talk to your parents."

EDIT: Yes, it's just a comedy TV show. But if you're a parent who raises your black child to believe he can just use that word in society, then you're sabotaging him. (Much in the way Dre's son got suspended at the start of that episode and had no idea why. Dre went straight to the principal's office in righteous indignation, ready to tear him a new one, until he saw the principal was also a black man. Suddenly he couldn't coherently explain why he thought his son had the right to shout racial slurs.)

Last edited by BaronGrackle; Today at 02:04 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #11662  
Old Today, 06:11 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,546

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post
It's idiotic because racism is racism. And either you're okay with racism, or you aren't.

But at this point I'm going to do what Ruin did and peace out, because apparently it's too complicated for you to understand, and there's obviously no point in trying to convince you otherwise.
It's not 'too complicated', yall think that a white woman saying 'white men must be stopped' in response to old white politicians being stupid is the same as black people being called the N word by white people, or black people saying it in rap music, and I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Realistically, when I hear someone use that word, I'm not going to do a quick scan of your skin color or look through your family tree in order to determine if you get a thumbs up.

Hilariously illustrated in that episode of Blackish, where Andre found out his daughter's friends were ALL using the n-word casually, so at the end of the episode he sits them all down to try to determine, one by one, which friends are okay to say it.

"And you... you..."
(states at boy with a vague tan? skin color)
"...I'm gonna have to talk to your parents."

EDIT: Yes, it's just a comedy TV show. But if you're a parent who raises your black child to believe he can just use that word in society, then you're sabotaging him. (Much in the way Dre's son got suspended at the start of that episode and had no idea why. Dre went straight to the principal's office in righteous indignation, ready to tear him a new one, until he saw the principal was also a black man. Suddenly he couldn't coherently explain why he thought his son had the right to shout racial slurs.)
I'm not going to debate with you over a tv show that I don't watch and it's handling of the issue.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
angry sax, catharsis, spam thread 2.0, stop using gawker

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.