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  #326  
Old 12-20-2013, 06:59 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Are Orgrim Doomhammer and Grom Hellscream going to be bad guys?
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  #327  
Old 12-20-2013, 07:01 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Are Orgrim Doomhammer and Grom Hellscream going to be bad guys?
Apparently everyone but Durotan is going to be a raidboss, which is awfully dumb.
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  #328  
Old 12-20-2013, 07:01 PM
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Are Orgrim Doomhammer and Grom Hellscream going to be bad guys?
Yeah
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  #329  
Old 12-20-2013, 07:10 PM
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Grom is but I'm actually not so sure about Doomhammer. Metzen said he has a "bitchin' storyline."

It's worth noting that Blackhand dies in the first raid tier. I think Doomhammer might take over the Blackrocks and break them off from the Iron Horde.
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You know, when I put the "i hate all of you" tag in threads, I'm not trying to be funny or cute. With a handful of exceptions, I really do hate almost everybody here.

It's one thing to have problems and voice your concerns, but when you endlessly bitch day in and day out about the same tired old shit, it honestly makes me wonder why you are even here. Generally when somebody doesn't like something, they stop caring about it.

And on that note, SoL is a forum I no longer enjoy. So, I'm done here. And I genuinely think the people who have absolutely nothing at all positive to say about the game and, the people whose posts are composed entirely of whining, really consider leaving (or at least sticking to non-WoW sections). Because if you truly get no enjoyment out of WoW, then why are you here?

With that said, goodbye.
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  #330  
Old 12-20-2013, 07:21 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
And Only them.
Aah, I misread the post. I thought he was referring to the frostwolves.

Anyway, I'm still waiting and seeing. MoP turned the typical WoW villain on ints head with the saurok (generic creeps who we actually got to see the society of), the mantid (evil old god race where we allied with the ones that remained loyal to the old gods), the mogu (whose villainy stemmed from upholding titanic order, the same thing the player did every expansion before) and even the yaungol (who despite being murderous bastards get numerous sympathic cultural traits prior to the corruption by the sha). I'm willing to give this a chance.
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  #331  
Old 12-20-2013, 07:24 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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MOP had cartoonish villain Garrosh stripped of all sympathetic characters and more inconsistent then ever. Along with the retcon that the Zandalar Tribe were always an evil empire, because we can't have villains with reasonable motivations now.

Simply put, it Sucked at characterization and turned nothing on its head.
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  #332  
Old 12-20-2013, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Reignac View Post
Grom is but I'm actually not so sure about Doomhammer. Metzen said he has a "bitchin' storyline."

It's worth noting that Blackhand dies in the first raid tier. I think Doomhammer might take over the Blackrocks and break them off from the Iron Horde.
The Blackrocks are the source of all the Iron Horde's warmachines. Frankly minus the Blackrocks, the Iron Horde is vastly less of a threat. It seems odd if we effectively defang the main threat of the expac that quickly unless the rest of the Iron Horde is just going to go all fel on us again.

Frankly, unless we have a massive plot twist in the first couple of major patch, I don't think Blizz can really afford to have clans go 'good'.
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  #333  
Old 12-20-2013, 07:28 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Basically all current signs strongly indicate WoD storyline will be awful.
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  #334  
Old 12-20-2013, 07:32 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Lutinz View Post
The Blackrocks are the source of all the Iron Horde's warmachines. Frankly minus the Blackrocks, the Iron Horde is vastly less of a threat. It seems odd if we effectively defang the main threat of the expac that quickly unless the rest of the Iron Horde is just going to go all fel on us again.

Frankly, unless we have a massive plot twist in the first couple of major patch, I don't think Blizz can really afford to have clans go 'good'.
Blizz will just have the Iron Horde pull weapons and stuff from the same place Garrosh got all the Cata and MoP bases
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  #335  
Old 12-20-2013, 07:33 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post

We are the Horde, we are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day . . .
I love you.

Now go do the Alliance version in the other thread.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #336  
Old 12-20-2013, 07:48 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
Now go do the Alliance version in the other thread.
The Alliance problems have more to do with lost nations and homelands, plus lost themes and personalities. In terms of races, they've only lost the High Elves. Except they still kind of have them. So not as fun to illustrate.
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  #337  
Old 12-20-2013, 07:49 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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The Alliance's story is actually much more narratively sound, until you run into WoW.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #338  
Old 12-20-2013, 07:54 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
The Alliance problems have more to do with lost nations and homelands, plus lost themes and personalities. In terms of races, they've only lost the High Elves. Except they still kind of have them. So not as fun to illustrate.
What I'm hearing is a big bunch of Horde bias.

Also, you forgot the wussification of the Alliance.
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
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2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

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Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #339  
Old 12-20-2013, 08:29 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
MOP had cartoonish villain Garrosh stripped of all sympathetic characters and more inconsistent then ever.
The second MoP started, Garrosh was locked into a single personality that remained consistent throughout the entire expansion. These traits were all extrapolated from earlier character traits.

Any attempt to make Garrosh consistent would not have fitted all previous portrayals, because they were different as hell.

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Along with the retcon that the Zandalar Tribe were always an evil empire, because we can't have villains with reasonable motivations now.
I'm still not entirely sure what retcon people are talking about. The zandalari empire has been in lore since vanilla. It was the empire the night elves warred against, splitting it into the amani and gurubashi. It's only when the initial empire was split that the zandalari became the distant but respected priestly caste.

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Simply put, it Sucked at characterization and turned nothing on its head.
So, you're completely ignoring the examples I just mentioned because you found two others you think didn't fit the bill? Even if I was to agree with you on Garrosh and the zandalari, you're still not giving any counter-argument to the things I just brought up.
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  #340  
Old 12-20-2013, 08:30 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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Originally Posted by Lutinz View Post
The Blackrocks are the source of all the Iron Horde's warmachines. Frankly minus the Blackrocks, the Iron Horde is vastly less of a threat. It seems odd if we effectively defang the main threat of the expac that quickly unless the rest of the Iron Horde is just going to go all fel on us again.

Frankly, unless we have a massive plot twist in the first couple of major patch, I don't think Blizz can really afford to have clans go 'good'.
Whether Doomhammer breaks the Blackrocks from the Iron Horde or not, we're destroying their foundry in the launch patch so either way they're out of luck making new stuff.

I highly doubt the Iron Horde is going to be the main villain come the end, and in fact I expect them to stoop mattering partway through. Like how Pandaria stopped mattering in MoP after 5.3 went live
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You know, when I put the "i hate all of you" tag in threads, I'm not trying to be funny or cute. With a handful of exceptions, I really do hate almost everybody here.

It's one thing to have problems and voice your concerns, but when you endlessly bitch day in and day out about the same tired old shit, it honestly makes me wonder why you are even here. Generally when somebody doesn't like something, they stop caring about it.

And on that note, SoL is a forum I no longer enjoy. So, I'm done here. And I genuinely think the people who have absolutely nothing at all positive to say about the game and, the people whose posts are composed entirely of whining, really consider leaving (or at least sticking to non-WoW sections). Because if you truly get no enjoyment out of WoW, then why are you here?

With that said, goodbye.
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  #341  
Old 12-20-2013, 08:41 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Also, you forgot the wussification of the Alliance.
You have no sense of continuity in that regard.
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  #342  
Old 12-20-2013, 09:41 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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I'm still not entirely sure what retcon people are talking about. The zandalari empire has been in lore since vanilla. It was the empire the night elves warred against, splitting it into the amani and gurubashi. It's only when the initial empire was split that the zandalari became the distant but respected priestly caste.
Well, not exactly; SotH indicates that the Gurubashi and Amani chose to leave and form their own empires with the blessing of the Zandalari, and that they did so because the arrogance of the Zandalari drove them away (while the Zandalari, in their arrogance, saw it as ridding their own empire of lesser trolls), rather than the same "empire fracturing from outside pressure" that caused the Nerubian/Qiraji/Mantid schism.

The timing's uncertain, but I'm thinking the Zandalari were possibly entangled in their war against the newly risen Pandaren Empire when the kaldorei rose to drive back the Gurubashi and Amani, thus preventing them from getting involved. Whatever the case, nothing in the lore so far has really indicated that the night elves had significant interaction with the Zandalari in the days of Ancient Kalimdor; we only know they stomped all over the twin empires sometime after the Aqir were defeated (a feat that, somewhat notably, is only directly attributed to the efforts of the Gurubashi and Amani; not to the Zandalari, who'd been fighting the Aqir far longer than they.)

Last edited by ARM3481; 12-20-2013 at 09:47 PM..
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  #343  
Old 12-20-2013, 10:19 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
The second MoP started, Garrosh was locked into a single personality that remained consistent throughout the entire expansion. These traits were all extrapolated from earlier character traits.

Any attempt to make Garrosh consistent would not have fitted all previous portrayals, because they were different as hell.
Sorry, but when did Garrosh show, the racist(infact he recruited the Taunka in WOTLK), sexist, traits that he showed in MOP.

Answer, Blizzard pulled out of nowhere. In Cataclysm, Garrosh was even shown executing a subordinate for slaughtering civillians with a bomb, which MOP Garrosh would later do.

Blizzard CMs even promised posters on the forums that garrosh would get better.

Zaela had her character assassinated as well, going from somehow who admired Garrosh for releasing her clan from tyranny and holding together a diverse group of races, into a racist, tyrannical caricature, basically a female MOP Garrosh.

That far worse leaders like Gallywix stayed is a testament to MOP's truly horrible writing.


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I'm still not entirely sure what retcon people are talking about. The zandalari empire has been in lore since vanilla. It was the empire the night elves warred against, splitting it into the amani and gurubashi. It's only when the initial empire was split that the zandalari became the distant but respected priestly caste.
No, in the original lore the factions that wanted conquest in the Zandalar were kicked out, becoming the Amani and Gurubashi empires respectively. They were the ones who fought the Night Elves and were splintered by their defeat.

The Zandalar also were directly stated to not be cannibals in the original lore, yet MOP retconned them to be cannibals to go with the whole mustache villain theme.

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
So, you're completely ignoring the examples I just mentioned because you found two others you think didn't fit the bill? Even if I was to agree with you on Garrosh and the zandalari, you're still not giving any counter-argument to the things I just brought up.
Those were the main problems and they're so huge that minor things like players teaming up with unsavory old God allied factions(Which has happened before MOP, see Skar'this the Herectic) do not save the writing from being a trainwreck at all.

Simply put, the Writers failed epically and pleased virtually no one.

Last edited by JorgeAxe; 12-20-2013 at 10:21 PM..
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  #344  
Old 12-20-2013, 10:25 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Well, not exactly; SotH indicates that the Gurubashi and Amani chose to leave and form their own empires with the blessing of the Zandalari, and that they did so because the arrogance of the Zandalari drove them away (while the Zandalari, in their arrogance, saw it as ridding their own empire of lesser trolls), rather than the same "empire fracturing from outside pressure" that caused the Nerubian/Qiraji/Mantid schism.
Okay, that's indeed a bit of a change, but hardly one that's unfounded in other lore. The zandalari do place themselves over the other trolls, as we see in both 'nilla and Kingzy.

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The timing's uncertain, but I'm thinking the Zandalari were possibly entangled in their war against the newly risen Pandaren Empire when the kaldorei rose to drive back the Gurubashi and Amani, thus preventing them from getting involved. Whatever the case, nothing in the lore so far has really indicated that the night elves had significant interaction with the Zandalari in the days of Ancient Kalimdor; we only know they stomped all over the twin empires sometime after the Aqir were defeated (a feat that, somewhat notably, is only directly attributed to the efforts of the Gurubashi and Amani; not to the Zandalari, who'd been fighting the Aqir far longer than they.)
Hold on, I was under the impression that the zandalari empire that fought the pandaren was the world-spanning empire that had allied with the mogu (it's made rather clear that they were the big two of their days), so that would have to be before the gurubashi and amani split off, right?

I really need to read SotH while not high on medication.
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  #345  
Old 12-20-2013, 10:29 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Hold on, I was under the impression that the zandalari empire that fought the pandaren was the world-spanning empire that had allied with the mogu (it's made rather clear that they were the big two of their days), so that would have to be before the gurubashi and amani split off, right?

I really need to read SotH while not high on medication.
The original Lore said the Zandalari never had an empire, it would've been mentioned if they did, instead it specifically states the Zandalar weren't expansionistic and were happy living in seclusion. The Warlike Zandalar that did want to expand, were kicked and became the Amani and Gurubashi empire.

If Blizzard wanted to have the Zandalar Tribe as antagonists, they sure didn't need to have them retconned to always be an evil empire with no redeeming qualities.
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  #346  
Old 12-20-2013, 10:30 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Sorry, but when did Garrosh show, the racist(infact he recruited the Taunka in WOTLK), sexist, traits that he showed in MOP.
1) It's the player and an allied tauren that recruits the taunka, not Garrosh
2) Garrosh has only ever shown that he cared about the orcs in the horde. It wasn't outright racism yet, but all his decisions as warchief were to further the goals of the orcs, with the other races pretty much a means to an end.
3) When the hell was Garrosh sexist?

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Zaela had her character assassinated as well, going from somehow who admired Garrosh for releasing her clan from tyranny and holding together a diverse group of races, into a racist, tyrannical caricature, basically a female MOP Garrosh.
When the hell did Zaela get so much screentime that you could make an assessment of her character?

Quote:
The Zandalar also were directly stated to not be cannibals in the original lore, yet MOP retconned them to be cannibals to go with the whole mustache villain theme.
The zandalari of MoP picked up a lot of the nastier habits that they had forsaken. It's stated throughout Isle of Thunder that they've started doing things that they normally wouldn't have.

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minor things
So, the entirety of patch 5.0 and 5.1 was just minor things?

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
The original Lore said the Zandalari never had an empire, it would've been mentioned if they did, instead it specifically states the Zandalar weren't expansionistic and were happy living in seclusion. The Warlike Zandalar that did want to expand, were kicked and became the Amani and Gurubashi empire.
I'll have to go over everything again, but I was under the impression that
A) The zandalari empire wasn't expansionist until MoP either
B) The government wasn't retconned at all, so the statement that it's an empire is purely a matter of semantics.
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  #347  
Old 12-20-2013, 10:33 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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When the hell did Zaela get so much screentime that you could make an assessment of her character?



The zandalari of MoP picked up a lot of the nastier habits that they had forsaken. It's stated throughout Isle of Thunder that they've started doing things that they normally wouldn't have.
1. This isn't a valid criticism.

Before she believed one thing.

Then later it didn't matter.

2. But they're treated like they were always this way.
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  #348  
Old 12-20-2013, 10:38 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
1) It's the player and an allied tauren that recruits the taunka, not Garrosh
2) Garrosh has only ever shown that he cared about the orcs in the horde. It wasn't outright racism yet, but all his decisions as warchief were to further the goals of the orcs, with the other races pretty much a means to an end.
3) When the hell was Garrosh sexist?
1. Actually, its a direct subordinate of Garrosh that appoints the Taunka as members of the Horde.
2. We're told several times in Cataclysm, Garrosh values the strength of the Tauren. Garrosh was also said to have personally recruited the Shatterspear. Garrosh's feud with Vol'jin was based on politics rather then race.
3. In tides of War, Garrosh calls several female characters "Woman" in a derogatory fasihon, clearly trying to make him more unsympathetic.

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When the hell did Zaela get so much screentime that you could make an assessment of her character?
The quest where we helped ever overthrow Mor'gor, take control of the Dragonmaw, and meet Garrosh.

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
The zandalari of MoP picked up a lot of the nastier habits that they had forsaken. It's stated throughout Isle of Thunder that they've started doing things that they normally wouldn't have.
Actually its acted as if they were always like, additionally the Zandalar Tribe wasn't cannibalistic or expansionistic, those are things MOP retconned in to make the Zandalar Tribe generically evil.

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
So, the entirety of patch 5.0 and 5.1 was just minor things?
Those are minor points, didn't change that much, and not enough to make up for the infinite suck of the Siege Of Orgrimmar and the complete derailment of the Orcs as a whole.
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  #349  
Old 12-20-2013, 11:07 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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1. This isn't a valid criticism.

Before she believed one thing.

Then later it didn't matter.
I would have liked to see some explanation from her perspective, sure, but it's not like we've had any conversations, offered alternatives, etc. Zaela had faith in Garrosh because he had a large diversity under his command. Sure, the trolls and tauren rebelled, but they never really seemed to support him anyway, and he'd already gotten support from mantid instead. The other races of the horde didn't openly rebel until they were already at the shores of Bladefist Bay. Kind of late to switch sides when they're already killing your men.

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2. But they're treated like they were always this way.
The zandalari are explicitly doing stuff they didn't do in the past. It's not stated for all of their acts (most of the quests we get are clear and concise military orders), but the implication that they're using things they would never have in the past is definitely there:

"Usually you be having many years to get better with your raptor. But time is short, and the Zandalar be needing raptors for the war. We have awakened the old ways. Take the blood of the raptors. Bind their essence to the fetishes. There not be time to bond with them the natural way."

"We be rushing this too much. Our beastcallers need years of training. I know we need a larger army but it won't be serving us much if our beasts be killing our own people."

"We Zandalari see these compies as a menace. But our enemies, they not be knowing. They not be growing up with the threat of these little things and their poisons. It is time we turn these vermin into weapons.
Take them! Train them! Sick them upon our enemies and watch how they be the ones squirming. Have these compies eat their food, poison their waters, hunt their children, and eat their wounded. Prove how even the vermin of the Zandalar are a weapon in our arsenal!"

Even then, sacrifice of fellow trolls is explicitly done with volunteers:

"Sacrifices are common place in Zandalari society. There is however one oddity among these barbaric rituals; volunteers. They treat it as a great honor!
The weak still seek to contribute, even if that means giving their lives to be bound to the sentries you see walking around. Locked away in service to their people."

Quote:
Actually its acted as if they were always like, additionally the Zandalar Tribe wasn't cannibalistic or expansionistic, those are things MOP retconned in to make the Zandalar Tribe generically evil.
I seem to be having a slow day, but I can't find the statement that says the zandalari were cannibalistic/expansionist all along.

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The quest where we helped ever overthrow Mor'gor, take control of the Dragonmaw, and meet Garrosh.
I mean her MoP personality. I see you make an assesment of her, but I have no idea where it's drawn from.

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
1. Actually, its a direct subordinate of Garrosh that appoints the Taunka as members of the Horde.
2. We're told several times in Cataclysm, Garrosh values the strength of the Tauren. Garrosh was also said to have personally recruited the Shatterspear. Garrosh's feud with Vol'jin was based on politics rather then race.
Fair enough on one. However, that's again based solely on that these races can do to help the orcs. Garrosh, as a warchief, has been exclusively focused on furthering the wealth of the orcs and orcs alone. Garrosh has pretty much always treated 'the orcs' and 'the horde' as entirely synonymous, with other races not yet hated, but not treated as anything more than vassals.

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3. In tides of War, Garrosh calls several female characters "Woman" in a derogatory fasihon, clearly trying to make him more unsympathetic.
That doesn't scream sexism to me. I've seen the word 'woman' spoken like an insult pulled out by lots of people, because it sounds more classy than an actual insult.

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
In Cataclysm, Garrosh was even shown executing a subordinate for slaughtering civillians with a bomb, which MOP Garrosh would later do.
Even in that expansion, that Garrosh appearance was completely inconsistent with his other appearances throughout the expansion. That's what I mean when I say "Any attempt to make Garrosh consistent would not have fitted all previous portrayals, because they were different as hell."

No personality that they could have given Garrosh would have been consistent with every single of his previous actions, because the guy was bounced back and forth even within an expansion until MoP finally settled him on a single mode.
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Old 12-20-2013, 11:40 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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As recently as SotH it's stated that at the height of their prominence, the Zandalari were noble and educated; their empire was a caste-based society, but over time all became Zandalari in name, while the caste-born differences led to those who sought conquest eventually leaving to create their own tribes and build their own empires, with those who remained Zandalari considering them "unruly children" who even in their separation would always come crawling back offering tribute and seeking Zandalari approval.

The Gurubashi and Amani empires went their separate ways, but kept sending back their sacrificial "tithes" to the Zandalari. Hence in one of Vol'jin's visions, the forest trolls are bringing Aqir prisoners back from the Amani empire's ongoing wars against the Aqir, as offerings to be sacrificed by the priests of the Zandalari. Given that the wars against the Aqir predated the rise of the kaldorei, the departure of the Amani and Gurubashi would have predated the night elves' ascension.

Additionally, Vol'jin cites: This was the Zandalar empire at the height of its power. It dominated Azeroth but would fall victim to its own might. Greed and avarice would spark intrigues. Factions would split. New empires would rise, like the Gurubashi empire, which would drive Vol'jin's Darkspear trolls into exile. Then it too would fall. All point to the internalized factors spurring the eventual decline of the Zandalar empire rather than external enemies forcing its collapse like with the Aqir.

We know that the Zandalari invaded Pandaria in a bid to restore the mogu to power, but there's no guarantee they were still at the height of their strength by that time, or necessarily even an empire any longer. Their failure to restore the mogu to power almost suggests that they weren't, especially since a key reason the mogu fell was due to their own internal conflicts and inadequacies crippling their unity and growing ever more prevalent in the absence of Lei Shen. Had the world's most powerful army invaded the Pandaren empire in its infancy, the pandaren wouldn't have stood a chance; rather, it's quite possible that the troll invasion would have not only occurred after they were greatly reduced in power, but perhaps even coincided with the rise of the kaldorei and subsequent trouncing of the Amani and Gurubashi, which could have forced the Zandalari to attack Pandaria alone and contributed to their failure, due to the twin empires' constituent tribes no longer being part of their dominion and/or being rendered unable to help them.

Last edited by ARM3481; 12-20-2013 at 11:43 PM..
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