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  #401  
Old 12-22-2013, 05:00 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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You're deluding yourself if you think Garrosh was yelling at Krom'gar for damaging the land or wasting supplies.

All this makes the writing of Mists Of Pandaria even shittier.
Kosak
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #402  
Old 12-22-2013, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
You're deluding yourself if you think Garrosh was yelling at Krom'gar for damaging the land or wasting supplies.

His quotes in the event.

* Was my command to murder innocents, Krom'gar?
* Instead, you laid waste to the land. Murdered innocents. Children even...
* I spent a very long time in Northrend, Krom'gar. I learned much about the Horde in that time.
* While there, a wise old war hero told me something that I would carry with me forever...
* Honor," Krom'gar, "No matter how dire the battle... never forsake it.
* Overlord Krom'gar, you have disgraced the Horde. You have brought shame to us as a people.


All this makes the writing of Mists Of Pandaria even shittier.
I think this comes from the Blues not seeming like they really research their responses. When Kosak answers a Twitter question he doesn't look up it in-game, or browse Wowpedia to remind himself, he just vomits the answer from the vague knowledge he had in his head. I don't think it's so much that these situations are retconned as the Blues just get their memory of the situation wrong and certain people jump on it as "BLUE SAID IT! CONFIRMED! RETCON1111!"

"Rogers was shooting drowning Orcs" - The same drowning Orcs who were explcitly swimming straight for the shore?

"Gilneas is totally abandoned!" - Err, why are 7th Legion marching out of it post-Silverpine? Crowley/GLF only retreated past the Wall.
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  #403  
Old 12-22-2013, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
I think you have the wrong european country there.
I assume he meant the Swiss myself but the Swedes are pretty neutral as a nation in fairness.

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
You're deluding yourself if you think Garrosh was yelling at Krom'gar for damaging the land or wasting supplies.

His quotes in the event.

* Was my command to murder innocents, Krom'gar?
* Instead, you laid waste to the land. Murdered innocents. Children even...
* I spent a very long time in Northrend, Krom'gar. I learned much about the Horde in that time.
* While there, a wise old war hero told me something that I would carry with me forever...
* Honor," Krom'gar, "No matter how dire the battle... never forsake it.
* Overlord Krom'gar, you have disgraced the Horde. You have brought shame to us as a people.


All this makes the writing of Mists Of Pandaria even shittier.
I sincerely believe they regret ever putting that quest/dialogue in there now, because it shows them up to be making Garrosh up as they go along.

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Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
I think this comes from the Blues not seeming like they really research their responses. When Kosak answers a Twitter question he doesn't look up it in-game, or browse Wowpedia to remind himself, he just vomits the answer from the vague knowledge he had in his head. I don't think it's so much that these situations are retconned as the Blues just get their memory of the situation wrong and certain people jump on it as "BLUE SAID IT! CONFIRMED! RETCON1111!"

"Rogers was shooting drowning Orcs" - The same drowning Orcs who were explcitly swimming straight for the shore?

"Gilneas is totally abandoned!" - Err, why are 7th Legion marching out of it post-Silverpine? Crowley/GLF only retreated past the Wall.
Great post, bolded bit especially. I like you son.
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  #404  
Old 12-22-2013, 06:26 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
Don't get me wrong, I dislike Gallywix immensely as a character, and I'd be happy to see him gone.

But to play Devil's Advocate; he IS what any Goblin strives to be. A success. The Goblins aren't nice people, as a rule, they're greedy and self-serving as a racial trait infact. In some ways there's no reason to replace him because his successor, as a Trade Prince, would be the exact same sort of Goblin.
While ruthlessness, greed, and self-serving are good traits for a goblin to have, Gallywix takes them too far to the point of stupidity. Gallywix made an enemy of everyone, the only people willing to stay loyal to him were Hobgoblins too stupid to know they were being taken advantage of.

Gallywix didn't even get his position from being smart, but from Thrall wearing his dunce cap that day.

As Gazlowe, Sassy, and the Entire Steamwheedle Cartel show, it can be smart to make allies and treat your direct employees well, a happy employee is far less likely to betray you, and can inform their boss about plots against them.
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  #405  
Old 12-23-2013, 03:48 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
While ruthlessness, greed, and self-serving are good traits for a goblin to have, Gallywix takes them too far to the point of stupidity. Gallywix made an enemy of everyone, the only people willing to stay loyal to him were Hobgoblins too stupid to know they were being taken advantage of.

Gallywix didn't even get his position from being smart, but from Thrall wearing his dunce cap that day.

As Gazlowe, Sassy, and the Entire Steamwheedle Cartel show, it can be smart to make allies and treat your direct employees well, a happy employee is far less likely to betray you, and can inform their boss about plots against them.
Fair point.
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  #406  
Old 12-23-2013, 05:21 AM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
Kosak
That is what seems to have happened since he became more involved in the lore.
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  #407  
Old 12-23-2013, 08:27 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Then stay with the Horde and provide constructive insight into how it can be made to not deserve to get beaten up.

Just, you know, in the Horde counterpart to this thread.
I just feel like anything that makes the orcs not worthy of damnation would be Deus ex machina. One generation tried to destroy Azeroth and there was a pity and period of remorse. Then a second generation goes and tries without any sort of mitigating influences. When I started leveling in MoP and saw how I would be doing quests for Garrosh I stopped and just did dungeons instead until I could do panda quests.

I thought the forsaken would get better after The Battle for the Undercity. They just got worse.

I just feel like too many players don't want the Horde to not deserve to get beat up. Any sort of change Blizzard does will be fought tooth and nail by the Alliance player base. It just makes the story feel so hopeless! I use to be a big Horde fan and Blizzard broke it for some reason.
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  #408  
Old 12-23-2013, 10:13 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Considering Kosak has said he prefers the Horde to be evil, its safe for us to lay the blame on him.
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  #409  
Old 12-23-2013, 10:15 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Considering Kosak has said he prefers the Horde to be evil, its safe for us to lay the blame on him.
I don't think that's what he said?
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #410  
Old 12-23-2013, 10:19 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
I don't think that's what he said?
No, Kosak said that as early as the BC expansion.
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  #411  
Old 12-23-2013, 10:22 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Well if Kosak said that I take back what I said. I hate Kosak.
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  #412  
Old 12-23-2013, 10:34 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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In a Mists Of Pandaria interview, Kosak said in an excited tone "Then in 5.3 we saw the Horde completely dissolving while the Alliance is coming together.
"


Yeah, this guy shouldn't be a writer for WoW. One half of the playerbase doesn't need to feel like trash for the other half to feel good.
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  #413  
Old 12-23-2013, 10:39 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
In a Mists Of Pandaria interview, Kosak said in an excited tone "Then in 5.3 we saw the Horde completely dissolving while the Alliance is coming together.
"


Yeah, this guy shouldn't be a writer for WoW. One half of the playerbase doesn't need to feel like trash for the other half to feel good.
Because they're discovering what it means to be Horde and while some races got a better story than others, the races are stronger for it.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #414  
Old 12-23-2013, 10:39 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Yeah, this guy shouldn't be a writer for WoW. One half of the playerbase doesn't need to feel like trash for the other half to feel good.
Most people who write for Blizzard, particularly those "faction war!" dickheads, shouldn't be writers.
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

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Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #415  
Old 12-23-2013, 10:52 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
Because they're discovering what it means to be Horde and while some races got a better story than others, the races are stronger for it.
Discovering what means to be Horde in this expansion is being stupidly evil, killing your own allies, and getting yelled at by humans and pandas.

Orcs are stronger for losing most of their allies, getting their capital city wrecked by humans, suffering massive loss of life, and being betrayed by their great leaders?

The Darkspear Tribe is stronger after suffering massive loss of life, having to kill their greatest allies(orcs and the Zandalar), and making no new ones?

Goblins are stronger for continuing to be stuck with an incompetent slave driver who doesn't care if they live or die?

Blood Elves are stronger for being stuck in a faction which they don't even feel belonging in?

The Tauren tribes are stronger for also having to kill their greatest allies, suffering massive loss of life, massive disillusionment, and an incompetent leader who can't live up to his father or lead the tribes?



Yeah, I don't buy it

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Most people who write for Blizzard, particularly those "faction war!" dickheads, shouldn't be writers.
They should've stuck to the cold war scenario in WoW.
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  #416  
Old 12-23-2013, 11:20 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
They should've stuck to the cold war scenario in WoW.
Fuck the Cold War scenario. Even those people who proposed that in vanilla are terrible writers.
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

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Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #417  
Old 12-23-2013, 11:25 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
Fuck the Cold War scenario. Even those people who proposed that in vanilla are terrible writers.
I sometimes wonder what a Warcraft II based online game would've been like? It probably would've been less of an rpg, but it would still be interesting to see.
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  #418  
Old 12-23-2013, 11:48 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
I sometimes wonder what a Warcraft II based online game would've been like? It probably would've been less of an rpg, but it would still be interesting to see.
It'd be similar in quality to today, only the nouns would change. People would be arguing that Stormwind needs to be reclaimed, or that it belongs to the orcs, now and forever. Lothar and 90% of the Alliance's warriors would go neutral to fight off demons and undead in the Blasted Lands. Any survivors from Stormwind stuck in Stormwind's lands would have gone crazy because reasons or joined Lothar in neutrality; any Stormwindians who made it to Lordaeron would be absorbed, except for one person. Any human nation that isn't Lordaeron would either be neutral (Dalaran), or Horde cannon fodder (Stromgarde, Gilneas). The Horde would still be depicted as good despite torturing and murdering any and every non-neutral human they run into. Varian would exist in lore, but not be shown or mentioned.
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #419  
Old 12-24-2013, 12:13 AM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
It'd be similar in quality to today, only the nouns would change. People would be arguing that Stormwind needs to be reclaimed, or that it belongs to the orcs, now and forever. Lothar and 90% of the Alliance's warriors would go neutral to fight off demons and undead in the Blasted Lands. Any survivors from Stormwind stuck in Stormwind's lands would have gone crazy because reasons or joined Lothar in neutrality; any Stormwindians who made it to Lordaeron would be absorbed, except for one person. Any human nation that isn't Lordaeron would either be neutral (Dalaran), or Horde cannon fodder (Stromgarde, Gilneas). The Horde would still be depicted as good despite torturing and murdering any and every non-neutral human they run into. Varian would exist in lore, but not be shown or mentioned.
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  #420  
Old 12-24-2013, 04:40 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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Discovering what means to be Horde in this expansion is being stupidly evil, killing your own allies, and getting yelled at by humans and pandas.

Orcs are stronger for losing most of their allies, getting their capital city wrecked by humans, suffering massive loss of life, and being betrayed by their great leaders?

The Darkspear Tribe is stronger after suffering massive loss of life, having to kill their greatest allies(orcs and the Zandalar), and making no new ones?

Goblins are stronger for continuing to be stuck with an incompetent slave driver who doesn't care if they live or die?

Blood Elves are stronger for being stuck in a faction which they don't even feel belonging in?

The Tauren tribes are stronger for also having to kill their greatest allies, suffering massive loss of life, massive disillusionment, and an incompetent leader who can't live up to his father or lead the tribes?



Yeah, I don't buy it.
Nor I.
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  #421  
Old 12-29-2013, 02:06 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
I think the orcish story can be good. The "demons made them do it" was always a cop out in Warcraft III and creates an odd detachment from the prior two games in the series. Even if the orcs caused destruction and were bad they can still bounce back now and still have heroes even in the darkest times. Look at WWII Germany and how well they recovered.

This can still be compelling. Thrall was told a white washed history from the orcs. He truly believed the orcs were always a noble and honorable race and that is was the demons that made them do it. That the Alliance unfairly judged his people and kept them down out of spite and bigotry. Thrall does not know all the events in the story and he was born into enslavement and saw the worst side of humanity. From his perspective this all made sense. Those who don't learn or don't know history are doomed to repeat it. Grom Hellscream was a victim of the blood haze and all he had to do was kill Mannoroth and the orcs could go back to their noble heritage.

Thrall went on believing this. He developed a messiah complex. He saved the tauren and the darkspear because he saw what he wanted to see within his own people. A tribal and shamanistic race. In their case though it was true. Across the ocean he saw other victims of Alliance "persecution" in the forsaken. He was blinded by his preconceived notions of the Alliance and felt, just like the orcs, that the Alliance misunderstood them. He is either an idealist or a shrewd opportunist since the Alliance was pretty much in shambles. He does this with the blood elves later to.

He goes on this quest to Outland to find out the uncorrupted orcs. The ones that are this noble heritage he is trying to reclaim. He even finds Grom Hellscream's son, uncorrupted. Who is completely ashamed of his father. After tell Garrosh the romanticize version of his father he is filled with confidence. Thrall wants to see Garrosh be what Grom could of been without the blood haze. He puts him in charge of the Northrend offensive in order to groom him to be a commander of the Horde.

It turns out that Garrosh is brutal and ruthless. He is just like his father but he never drank the blood of Mannoroth. All the Maghar are. They don't fight anyone with any sort of honor. They don't need the demon blood to be bad. They all strive to be just like the heroes of the Old Horde. Having Garrosh be the one to repeat the mistakes of his father is the personification of Thrall's own misunderstanding of what Grom was and what his people are. Thrall was misinformed.

The other races in the Horde were in it because they were desperate. Thrall was pretty much handed a very powerful force. He offered a helping hand to anyone who would ask. All the Horde races either had to work together or be destroyed. If the orcs became a burden instead of a blessing than they will not have it so they rebelled. Seeing the warlocks hung up in Orgrimmar was a big sign that it wasn't the demons that made them do anything. You can't blame all your personal failings on something external like that. Garrosh tried to.

Garrosh was Thrall's fault. Thrall told him a false narrative and gave him too much power. This would of never happened if Thrall didn't misunderstand his own people. In WoD we are going to learn that most of the orcish heroes were actually bad. There was never was this noble heritage. Even if they didn't drink the demon blood they will still try to slaughter the draenei and the recalcitrant orcish clans. We are using an alternate reality to accomplish this kind of introspection and narrative.

I think the orcs can still be reformed because we have seen the potential for goodness in the race. Thrall, Saurfang, and the frost wolves. The orcish clans that were destroyed. It just is completely their fault. They need to learn to take personal responsibility for all their mistakes. Stop blaming the demons and the Alliance.

I think the orcish story can still be good. I wish there was more diversity with in the forsaken though. They are just comical evil and there is almost no sign of any sort of good. I don't understand why undeath did this to them or why Runetotem believes he can redeem him. It makes it seem like Runetotem has more sympathy for the murderers than he does their victims. I think the idea that they use to be humans grants legitimacy to that case and I would like to see more of that light in the darkness. Other wise it just makes the Horde look wholly incompetent. I don't want to believe that their state of undeath is the death of their previous lives. That, just like the worgen, that their sanity can be restored. It doesn't have to be right away but I would like to see more hints.

That's not wholly true though. In Rise of the Horde Thrall flat out states

"To pretend it [the demonic corruption] did not exist is to forget how dreadful the impact was. To make ourselves into victims, rather than claiming our participation in our own destruction. We chose this path, we orcs. We chose it right up until it was too late to turn back. And having made that choice, we can, with the knowledge that we have of the end of that dark and shameful road, choose not to take it."[1]

The Demonic Blood was the climax of their genocide against the draenei. they had already started doing things like using warlocks, dark magic, mass murder long before the blood. Grom also told Thrall in "By Demons Be Driven" that they still willingly choose it. Grom's redemption worked because he hadn't been fully cleansed. All they did was cleanse it enough for his humanity to resurface. When he faced Mannorath, he was probably being torn between "be a selfish dick and embrace the power even though I know it's wrong" or "do the right thing and reject the evil power." In the end, Grom did do the right thing. It took several tries, but when push came to shove he did do the right thing. I agree that Thrall had a rosier view of Grom than warranted, but overall the Orcs had been noble once. The problem is that it is extremely easy to perform atrocities if one can justify it (in the island Ewan McGreggor watches a clone get dragged off to be dissected. A guard helps him up and calmly asks "You okay that's not the first time this happened" before buggering off like nothing happened. The orcs were good once, but they allowed themselves to be corrupted and were willing participants. The orcs can claim that the legion manipulated them into becoming evil, which is true. They just need to admit that they were willing participants who bought into the legion's lies and did horrible things because they believed it.

You claim that

"Thrall went on believing this. He developed a messiah complex. He saved the tauren and the darks spear because he saw what he wanted to see within his own people. A tribal and shamanistic race. In their case though it was true. Across the ocean he saw other victims of Alliance "persecution" in the forsaken. He was blinded by his preconceived notions of the Alliance and felt, just like the orcs, that the Alliance misunderstood them. He is either an idealist or a shrewd opportunist since the Alliance was pretty much in shambles. He does this with the blood elves later to.

He goes on this quest to Outland to find out the uncorrupted orcs. The ones that are this noble heritage he is trying to reclaim. He even finds Grom Hellscream's son, uncorrupted. Who is completely ashamed of his father. After tell Garrosh the romanticize version of his father he is filled with confidence. Thrall wants to see Garrosh be what Grom could of been without the blood haze. He puts him in charge of the Northrend offensive in order to groom him to be a commander of the Horde."

1.) He accepted the forsaken because both had gotten shafted by the legion. The legion were the ones who told the orcs "hey the draenei are plotting against you, you should totally start using warlock magic and killing people in ways worse than just the occasional tribal conflict, oh and here's this magic blood which makes your anger and aggression infinity times worse". They also commissioned the manufacture of the plague of undeath, created the scourge, and gave the order to have the weapon unleashed. The forsaken became the way they were because of the Legion's douchebaggery. So in a way Thrall can sort of emphasize. How can he turn people in trouble when their predicament is largely due to the same people who screwed over his people?

2.) I also vaguely recall reading that Thrall saw their shamanistic culture as a way to help the orcs redevelop theirs (a lot of knowledge was lost, so they saw the taurens and trolls as a way to help them rebuild.

"Garrosh was Thrall's fault. Thrall told him a false narrative and gave him too much power. This would of never happened if Thrall didn't misunderstand his own people. In WoD we are going to learn that most of the orcish heroes were actually bad. There was never was this noble heritage. Even if they didn't drink the demon blood they will still try to slaughter the draenei and the recalcitrant orcish clans. We are using an alternate reality to accomplish this kind of introspection and narrative."

Except there actually was a noble heritage long ago. Prior to Nerzhul telling them "the spirits warn us the draenei are plotting against us" the orcs and draenei were able to coexist relatively peacefully. The reason the orcs bought into all that crap was because a.) they didn't really no a lot about the draenei (Durotan was dubious largely because he had personally met Velen and other draenei and was somewhat familiar with them as people and b.) they were conditioned to believe in the spirits, and since nerzhul was well respected they didn't really bother to question him. I'm guessing that Garrosh shows up long into the war against the draenei; the period when they were doing bad shit but hadn't quite drunk the blood yet.




Also, I feel that Daelin's actions made things a lot worse and contributed to the animosity. Many orcs already hated the alliance because they had been born in the camps, where they were subjected to daily beatings, being forced to shit in their own vomit and feces, and denied food water and medicine. While many of the orcs in the camp did deserve the punishment, a large part where children who were either born in the camps or grew up in them and hadn't taken part in the war. They didn't deserve to be abused for the sin's of their parents. Thrall turned out okay because he had people like Taretha and Seargent in addition to Blackmoore. If it had been just blackmoore he would have hated humanity.

When Daelin launched an attack even after the orcs and humans had a ceasefire and a period of relative peace (plus had moved to a whole bother continent) it basically reconfirmed a lot of opinions orcs had. Most would have assumed that humans were assholes who would always be out to get them, or that people like Jaina proudmoore were unique and that more people were like her douchebag father. As such, many would have welcomed a war as necessary for their survival.
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  #422  
Old 12-29-2013, 03:20 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
When Daelin launched an attack even after the orcs and humans had a ceasefire and a period of relative peace (plus had moved to a whole bother continent) it basically reconfirmed a lot of opinions orcs had. Most would have assumed that humans were assholes who would always be out to get them, or that people like Jaina proudmoore were unique and that more people were like her douchebag father. As such, many would have welcomed a war as necessary for their survival.
Well only Jaina and orcs had a ceasefire, it doesn't work on the entire Alliance. The result also told us Daelin was right.
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  #423  
Old 12-29-2013, 04:16 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Well only Jaina and orcs had a ceasefire, it doesn't work on the entire Alliance. The result also told us Daelin was right.
The result also told us that Daelin was wrong.
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  #424  
Old 12-29-2013, 04:34 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
In a Mists Of Pandaria interview, Kosak said in an excited tone "Then in 5.3 we saw the Horde completely dissolving while the Alliance is coming together.
"


Yeah, this guy shouldn't be a writer for WoW. One half of the playerbase doesn't need to feel like trash for the other half to feel good.
5.3 didn't do jack shit for the Alliance.

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The result also told us that Daelin was wrong.
No, not really. By the end of Thralls rule, he was walking on glass to avoid being overthrown.
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  #425  
Old 12-29-2013, 04:35 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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5.3 didn't do jack shit for the Alliance.
You guys got to be vindicated about the Alliance's feelings towards the orcs. Then you got to show mercy towards the Horde after they were made into a bunch of incompetent jerks.
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