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  #476  
Old 12-30-2013, 11:06 AM
Mark_Romaneck Mark_Romaneck is offline

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Did someone renamed the faction thread?
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  #477  
Old 12-30-2013, 11:10 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
Then why didn't they just put them to death straight away and save themselves the trouble?
Politics. This let Terenas portray himself as a good guy while making the orcs irrelevant enough for him to focus on rebuilding the realm.
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  #478  
Old 12-30-2013, 11:16 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Because the Alliance wanted docile slaves.
[Citation Needed]
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  #479  
Old 12-30-2013, 11:25 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
[Citation Needed]
Blackmoore, of the evil mustache fan club.

(He was founder and president until he died, then Garithos took over. Then FrozenThroneDaelin took over, after him.)
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  #480  
Old 12-30-2013, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
I know it's a tad pointless to say this, because it's a "What If" and, if it did happen, the current setting wouldn't exist because WC3 might not of even happened, or certainly not the same way, but:

Trollbane was right. The Orcs should of been executed to the last.

Leaving them alive and in internment camps did no good. Varian's post SoO dialogue seems to forget some of us -are- thinking "Fine, if internment doesn't work, as you say, let's kill them all and put an end to this cycle of bullshit?"
The narrative suggests that Trollbane was wrong. One of the reasons why the camps failed in the first place was because the camps were underfunded and mismanaged. One of the big reasons why the camps were underfunded and mismanaged was because of Trollbane and Greymane withdrew from the Alliance.
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  #481  
Old 12-30-2013, 01:12 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
The narrative suggests that Trollbane was wrong. One of the reasons why the camps failed in the first place was because the camps were underfunded and mismanaged. One of the big reasons why the camps were underfunded and mismanaged was because of Trollbane and Greymane withdrew from the Alliance.
Then Terenas was wrong. If his plan was dependent on the others, he should have planned better.
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  #482  
Old 12-30-2013, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Then Terenas was wrong. If his plan was dependent on the others, he should have planned better.
Then everyone was wrong, because it means no one understood the true situation.
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  #483  
Old 12-30-2013, 01:14 PM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Then everyone was wrong, because it means no one understood the true situation.
And there we have it, a line that sums up Blizzard's handling of WarCraft Lore pefectly.
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  #484  
Old 12-30-2013, 01:19 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Then everyone was wrong, because it means no one understood the true situation.
Which is probably by legion design. Introduce a situation that, even on defeat, all available options are beneficial to their cause.
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  #485  
Old 12-30-2013, 01:20 PM
Korath Korath is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Then everyone was wrong, because it means no one understood the true situation.
If Terenas had done what Thoras and Genn advocated, things would have been better for the human Kingdoms. But since he always hoped to make the orcs an asset for Lordaeron, since the Alliance was still too independent to his taste...
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  #486  
Old 12-30-2013, 01:23 PM
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Although I disagree that killing the orcs was "right," I do agree with Hammerbrew that Genn should have thrown that back in Varian's face in their arguments in Wolfheart, especially since Varian supported the internment camps and Genn did not.

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Originally Posted by Korath View Post
If Terenas had done what Thoras and Genn advocated, things would have been better for the human Kingdoms. But since he always hoped to make the orcs an asset for Lordaeron, since the Alliance was still too independent to his taste...
Apart from the Scourging of Lordaeron, which likely still would have happened.
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  #487  
Old 12-30-2013, 01:29 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Although I disagree that killing the orcs was "right," I do agree with Hammerbrew that Genn should have thrown that back in Varian's face in their arguments in Wolfheart, especially since Varian supported the internment camps and Genn did not.

Apart from the Scourging of Lordaeron, which likely still would have happened.
It didn't in alternate verse.

The human kingdoms would be overthrown from blackmoore
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  #488  
Old 12-30-2013, 01:35 PM
Korath Korath is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Apart from the Scourging of Lordaeron, which likely still would have happened.
I am not so sure : at first, Terenas was more concerned by Thrall and is renewal of the Horde than the Scourge, and then Arthas take the matters in his hands, and everything did go to the worse. Without having to care about the orcs, I think that Terenas would have been, if not ready to listen to Medhiv, at least dedicated to fight off the Scourge and wouldn't have let his son do as he pleases.
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  #489  
Old 12-30-2013, 01:46 PM
Mark_Romaneck Mark_Romaneck is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Although I disagree that killing the orcs was "right," I do agree with Hammerbrew that Genn should have thrown that back in Varian's face in their arguments in Wolfheart, especially since Varian supported the internment camps and Genn did not.
God forbid anyone having a point against a character voiced by Metzen
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  #490  
Old 12-30-2013, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
It didn't in alternate verse.

The human kingdoms would be overthrown from blackmoore
There was a reason for that. The Alliance Expedition to Draenor never happened, because Blackmoore took over Lordaeron prior to that, just after the Battle of Blackrock Mountain to be precise. Ner'zhul therefore never needed to resort to the portals to escape Draenor. He therefore never found his way back into Kil'jaeden's clutches. Though he may have, but we just would not know the circumstances in which it happened. There's even this bit in Twilight of the Aspects that's particularly intriguing:
Quote:
Thrall paused a moment, thinking hard. He knew he had to restore the timeway or else all would unravel. Perhaps it was a good thing that Blackmoore was gone; perhaps this would open up some way for the timeway to restore itself somehow.

And yetthat would mean such great tragedy.

The plague would have to sweep through the land. Thousands would be either corpses or worse.

Arthas would need to become the Lich King. A thought made [Thrall] break out in sweat: What if, in this world, Blackmoore was to become the Lich King? He had KelThuzad whispering in his ear.
It does seem implied with Kel'thuzad being Blackmoore's advisor that an alternate Scouging of Lordaeron could be on the horizon.

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Originally Posted by Korath View Post
I am not so sure : at first, Terenas was more concerned by Thrall and is renewal of the Horde than the Scourge, and then Arthas take the matters in his hands, and everything did go to the worse. Without having to care about the orcs, I think that Terenas would have been, if not ready to listen to Medhiv, at least dedicated to fight off the Scourge and wouldn't have let his son do as he pleases.
Even if there was no Horde to deal with, Terenas made it clear that he had no intention of making his own people prisoners in their own land by instituting a quarantine. Also given the Lich King and the Cult of the Damned, I'm sure that they still would have managed to find a way. You have to remember that this is before the Lich King became a blonde.

I'm not going to lie, there's a part of me that wishes that something similar to this alternate timeline was the real one, with orcs revolting and freeing themselves, though I would probably change things around so it was less about "look at all these characters from the MU who are doing things differently in the AU."

Last edited by Genesis; 12-30-2013 at 02:12 PM..
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  #491  
Old 12-30-2013, 02:00 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
It does seem implied with Kel'thuzad being Blackmoore's advisor that an alternate Scouging of Lordaeron could be on the horizon.
Best Scourge has Medivh as the Lich King with Deathwing as his Death Knight champion.
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  #492  
Old 12-30-2013, 02:36 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
The internment camps might have worked in the long-term if Thrall didn't fuck that up and start releasing them. I'm thinking that they suffer their withdrawal to the point at least the next generation are relatively docile. Maybe they could have been integrated into Lordaeron's army when a foe to fight appeared (Hello Imperial Legion).
It probably would have helped if anyone in the Alliance thought of proselytizing to the orcs. I mean, c'mon, the church is already aesthetically and administratively Christian in the first place...
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #493  
Old 12-30-2013, 02:38 PM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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Convert the barbarian, demon worshiping savage green-skins to the Light! Genius!
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So many deluded people think their rotting Waifuchief cares for them and their faction, when every scrap of internalized narrative has made it clear for years that to Sylvanas, the entirety of the Horde - including her own people - is nothing more than a shitton of bodies to stack between herself and her final death.

And all it takes is a tactically calculated "for the Horde" rallying the troops to make them all think "OMG she really does care!"
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  #494  
Old 12-30-2013, 02:55 PM
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Thrall having a renegade thought is a pretty huge stretch to be called an "implication."

How does he even know Kel'thuzad was working for the Scourge? With no Alliance expedition to Draenor Ner'zhul is not there to contact Kel'thuzad or anyone really. Furthermore Teretha confirms that there is nothing to suggest any Scourge or Plague.

It's possible that Kel'thuzad's lust for power was satisfied by becoming Blackmoore's Vizier.
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  #495  
Old 12-30-2013, 03:03 PM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Thrall having a renegade thought is a pretty huge stretch to be called an "implication."

How does he even know Kel'thuzad was working for the Scourge? With no Alliance expedition to Draenor Ner'zhul is not there to contact Kel'thuzad or anyone really. Furthermore Teretha confirms that there is nothing to suggest any Scourge or Plague.

It's possible that Kel'thuzad's lust for power was satisfied by becoming Blackmoore's Vizier.
That was how I understood that section of the book.
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  #496  
Old 12-30-2013, 03:06 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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There's nothing so bad about having the captured orcs killed because it wouldn't have gotten rid of all the Orcs.

The Warsong Clan was still rogue.
The Frostwolves were still around.

Go down south there's the Dragonmaw.
Go further south and you have the Blackrocks.

Go to Outland and oh hey you got the Mok'Nathal and the Fel Orcs and the Mag'har.

Really, the extermination of the captured Orcs (which Trollbane,Genn, and Kael believe it or not) desired wouldn't have "ended" the Orcs, there would just be less of them.

Assuming that Thrall (or a Thrall-esque figure) still existed within the Orcs those remaining Orcs could have well bunched together and if the Warsong clan avoided capture long enough they could have headed to Kalimdor and it all would have continued the same.

So yeah. Orcs being killed instead? Not much of a big thing.
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  #497  
Old 12-30-2013, 03:22 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Thrall having a renegade thought is a pretty huge stretch to be called an "implication."

How does he even know Kel'thuzad was working for the Scourge? With no Alliance expedition to Draenor Ner'zhul is not there to contact Kel'thuzad or anyone really. Furthermore Teretha confirms that there is nothing to suggest any Scourge or Plague.

It's possible that Kel'thuzad's lust for power was satisfied by becoming Blackmoore's Vizier.
Thrall does not know that Kel'thuzad is Scourge. He's speculating that it's a possible future for this AU. Kel'thuzad, however, was long interested in the dark arts and necromancy by this time. It's why Kel'thuzad was so keen to find out from Khadgar about Medivh's library following the Fall of Stormwind.

Ner'zhul may not be the Lich King, but that does not mean that Kil'jaeden did not have a Lich King plan in the works. After all, Kil'jaeden devised the Lich King after the orcs failed; Ner'zhul was just the puppet that Kil'jaeden chose to fill that purpose. The orcs still failed in this alternate timeline and other puppets can be selected. It's also possible that the War of the Spider is happening during this time in the Blackmoore-verse, and the Scourge would therefore be off Lordaeron's radar. It's possible that Aedaelas Blackmoore would have found the offer of being an eternal Lich King with further power more alluring than his present temporal powers, and he would have become the Arthas who then slaughters his people.
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  #498  
Old 12-30-2013, 03:39 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Didn't Warking Blackmoore die? In, uh, Twilight the Aspects?
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Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #499  
Old 12-30-2013, 03:42 PM
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Didn't Warking Blackmoore die? In, uh, Twilight the Aspects?
Yes. Blackmoore disappeared and he was the figure hunting Thrall, but Thrall did not know that at the time. It's a bit of a moot point arguing about this AU given that all timelines are false timelines fated fall to the Burning Legion except the MU, which is the only true timeline that matters.
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  #500  
Old 12-30-2013, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Yes. Blackmoore disappeared and he was the figure hunting Thrall, but Thrall did not know that at the time. It's a bit of a moot point arguing about this AU given that all timelines are false timelines fated fall to the Burning Legion except the MU, which is the only true timeline that matters.
*stares at Draenor*

Well fuck.
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