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  #626  
Old 01-16-2014, 12:29 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I hate how Blizzard makes the Horde do stuff and then lets the Alliance rub our nose in it. I didn't want to do all those things in the first place! I still like all my characters and friends but it is so frustrating. I can't buy into the "Lets do a bunch of bad things and redeem ourselves for it." anymore.
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  #627  
Old 01-16-2014, 12:39 PM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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I hate how Blizzard makes the Horde do stuff and then lets the Alliance rub our nose in it. I didn't want to do all those things in the first place! I still like all my characters and friends but it is so frustrating. I can't buy into the "Lets do a bunch of bad things and redeem ourselves for it." anymore.
Well, let's be honest. Blizzard's one and only chance to really darken the Alliance went out the door with the Blood Elves. They would have been an excellent race to bring some grey to the Alliance's pure white. That said, a fair number of Horde quests, at least in Cataclysm, were arguably morally ambiguous. The worst was mostly just the Forsaken, or cases where the Quest Devs were trying to make Garrosh look good.
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  #628  
Old 01-16-2014, 12:50 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Well, let's be honest. Blizzard's one and only chance to really darken the Alliance went out the door with the Blood Elves. They would have been an excellent race to bring some grey to the Alliance's pure white. That said, a fair number of Horde quests, at least in Cataclysm, were arguably morally ambiguous. The worst was mostly just the Forsaken, or cases where the Quest Devs were trying to make Garrosh look good.
They also could of went more on the blood elf being victims of the Alliance angle with Garithos and all. The whole blood knight decision seems like a last minute decision and if you didn't have that the Alliance looks overly judgmental for the minor fel.

Warcraft III, LotC, and vanilla had a darker Alliance.
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  #629  
Old 01-16-2014, 01:11 PM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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They also could of went more on the blood elf being victims of the Alliance angle with Garithos and all. The whole blood knight decision seems like a last minute decision and if you didn't have that the Alliance looks overly judgmental for the minor fel.

Warcraft III, LotC, and vanilla had a darker Alliance.
Thing is, WC3 and LotC Alliance were basically Lordaeron being darkened more than the Alliance itself. As for vanilla, I can't say I saw a dark Alliance there. More of a Black Dragon manipulating Stormwind and such.
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  #630  
Old 01-16-2014, 01:35 PM
Arcadia Arcadia is offline

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The problem with the Horde's story is honestly the Alliance.

And I dont mean that in some FACTION WAR YEAH kind of way, I mean in the way that Blizz has handled the Alliance story in Pandaria and how it stands in contrast to the Horde's. Because you really can't honestly analyze one in isolation to the other. They're meant to be compared and put side by side, but Blizz has been writing as though it hasn't.

The Horde is suffused with internal conflict. The Forsaken don't like anyone, the Blood Elves are still strangers, the Tauren dislike the constant war the orcs drag them into, the Goblins are here to make money, and the trolls are trying to not get wiped out again. That's a huge mess, but it makes for good storytelling. Conflict's interesting.

The Alliance...well. The Alliance has always been a shaky thing story-wise. Thematically, they're a mutual defense pact of political convenience. Each race has its own story, but the relationships between each race are bland, unexplored, and milquetoast at best. The Trials of the High King have smothered what little chance there was even further by having the races of the Alliance line up adoringly behind Varian, often at the expense of established characters (coughTyrande).

With the Alliance being the shining, moral, and united faction who uphold a very traditional sense of justice, they need something to bring that justice to. Voila, the Horde! But...the Horde is supposed to be a good faction, too. But the Alliance need something to fight and work against as the "just and righteous" faction.

See the problem?

Not only is the lack on conflict on the Alliance side put undue weight on the Horde to gin up conflict to run the story, but the utter lack of moral gray in the Alliance narrative inevitably paints Horde as evil when the two factions are compared side by side. Horde is stuck in a narrative rock-and-hard place with being the "bad" side, but still having to somehow justify being good guys too without staining the impeccable Alliance white.
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  #631  
Old 01-16-2014, 01:56 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Idk how much you can blame the Horde's story on the Alliance considering the Alliance can't really be White Knights if they have to 2nd guess which Horde races to fight, how, why, where, and to what extent do they want to win.
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  #632  
Old 01-16-2014, 01:56 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Arcadia View Post
The problem with the Horde's story is honestly the Alliance.

And I dont mean that in some FACTION WAR YEAH kind of way, I mean in the way that Blizz has handled the Alliance story in Pandaria and how it stands in contrast to the Horde's. Because you really can't honestly analyze one in isolation to the other. They're meant to be compared and put side by side, but Blizz has been writing as though it hasn't.

The Horde is suffused with internal conflict. The Forsaken don't like anyone, the Blood Elves are still strangers, the Tauren dislike the constant war the orcs drag them into, the Goblins are here to make money, and the trolls are trying to not get wiped out again. That's a huge mess, but it makes for good storytelling. Conflict's interesting.

The Alliance...well. The Alliance has always been a shaky thing story-wise. Thematically, they're a mutual defense pact of political convenience. Each race has its own story, but the relationships between each race are bland, unexplored, and milquetoast at best. The Trials of the High King have smothered what little chance there was even further by having the races of the Alliance line up adoringly behind Varian, often at the expense of established characters (coughTyrande).

With the Alliance being the shining, moral, and united faction who uphold a very traditional sense of justice, they need something to bring that justice to. Voila, the Horde! But...the Horde is supposed to be a good faction, too. But the Alliance need something to fight and work against as the "just and righteous" faction.

See the problem?

Not only is the lack on conflict on the Alliance side put undue weight on the Horde to gin up conflict to run the story, but the utter lack of moral gray in the Alliance narrative inevitably paints Horde as evil when the two factions are compared side by side. Horde is stuck in a narrative rock-and-hard place with being the "bad" side, but still having to somehow justify being good guys too without staining the impeccable Alliance white.
Well Blizzard has done shit writing for a while now, go figure. But yes, the story is full of these incongruities, like wanting to have a faction war while having an ironclad directive that prevents any true damage befalling a playable race. And then there are the idiotic decisions for no reason, like the ending to WotLK or the whole of Catacylsm.

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  #633  
Old 01-16-2014, 02:32 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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The ironic thing is, while all this is going on in the game and its story feeling like what use to be good is being dragged though a bush backwards one after another, I did find the only glimmer of good story in an unlikely place.


The graphic novel bloodsworn had in it, for me, the best written horde story in years, because when it got down to it, the characters in bloodsworn were relateable. They were not some super powered mortal turned demi gods or faction kings or any of that shit, they where just characters in there own story, one that reflected the current changes to the horde, and how they felt about it, what mattered to them, such as comradery and honor, and just putting aside any negative grievance, like the old days in vanilla or WC3, how it use to feel.

This book made me feel what it use to be like reading the books or the quest text in the game or doing those things in game, something the game writers can't do anymore it seems..

Its funny how an outside source, the guy who wrote this book, Doug Wagner, put more thought and care into this short story that made me still love the horde, more then the games own developers can do.
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  #634  
Old 01-16-2014, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Arcadia View Post
The problem with the Horde's story is honestly the Alliance.

And I dont mean that in some FACTION WAR YEAH kind of way, I mean in the way that Blizz has handled the Alliance story in Pandaria and how it stands in contrast to the Horde's. Because you really can't honestly analyze one in isolation to the other. They're meant to be compared and put side by side, but Blizz has been writing as though it hasn't.

The Horde is suffused with internal conflict. The Forsaken don't like anyone, the Blood Elves are still strangers, the Tauren dislike the constant war the orcs drag them into, the Goblins are here to make money, and the trolls are trying to not get wiped out again. That's a huge mess, but it makes for good storytelling. Conflict's interesting.

The Alliance...well. The Alliance has always been a shaky thing story-wise. Thematically, they're a mutual defense pact of political convenience. Each race has its own story, but the relationships between each race are bland, unexplored, and milquetoast at best. The Trials of the High King have smothered what little chance there was even further by having the races of the Alliance line up adoringly behind Varian, often at the expense of established characters (coughTyrande).

With the Alliance being the shining, moral, and united faction who uphold a very traditional sense of justice, they need something to bring that justice to. Voila, the Horde! But...the Horde is supposed to be a good faction, too. But the Alliance need something to fight and work against as the "just and righteous" faction.

See the problem?

Not only is the lack on conflict on the Alliance side put undue weight on the Horde to gin up conflict to run the story, but the utter lack of moral gray in the Alliance narrative inevitably paints Horde as evil when the two factions are compared side by side. Horde is stuck in a narrative rock-and-hard place with being the "bad" side, but still having to somehow justify being good guys too without staining the impeccable Alliance white.
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  #635  
Old 01-16-2014, 04:08 PM
Arcadia Arcadia is offline

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Well Blizzard has done shit writing for a while now, go figure. But yes, the story is full of these incongruities, like wanting to have a faction war while having an ironclad directive that prevents any true damage befalling a playable race. And then there are the idiotic decisions for no reason, like the ending to WotLK or the whole of Catacylsm.

And welcome to SoL
I think this is the big problem? Blizz is so afraid of touching that Horde and Alliance "feel". They dont want to let them evolve. Hell, they're choosing the rehash old lore instead of going forward. Its a big problem with Blizz's writers clinging to old themes.

And thank you for the welcome.
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  #636  
Old 01-16-2014, 04:22 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Originally Posted by Arcadia View Post
I think this is the big problem? Blizz is so afraid of touching that Horde and Alliance "feel". They dont want to let them evolve. Hell, they're choosing the rehash old lore instead of going forward. Its a big problem with Blizz's writers clinging to old themes.

And thank you for the welcome.
But they can't even get that right. But some amazing feat, they've managed to stagnate the story, yet still make it as convoluted as possible. The story literally feels like we're watching a movie star that still thinks themselves a young starlet, even at 75.
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  #637  
Old 01-16-2014, 04:30 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I think this is the big problem? Blizz is so afraid of touching that Horde and Alliance "feel". They dont want to let them evolve. Hell, they're choosing the rehash old lore instead of going forward. Its a big problem with Blizz's writers clinging to old themes.

And thank you for the welcome.
Yes, I feel the same way. I really want races to evolve with the times, work on their imperfections and create whole new imperfections along the way. Have orcs advance technologically, have blood elves expand and become powerful internationally, have humans focus inward and salvage their own race while they can. And for God's sakes people, let go of WCII.
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  #638  
Old 01-16-2014, 04:32 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by Arcadia View Post
The problem with the Horde's story is honestly the Alliance.

And I dont mean that in some FACTION WAR YEAH kind of way, I mean in the way that Blizz has handled the Alliance story in Pandaria and how it stands in contrast to the Horde's. Because you really can't honestly analyze one in isolation to the other. They're meant to be compared and put side by side, but Blizz has been writing as though it hasn't.

The Horde is suffused with internal conflict. The Forsaken don't like anyone, the Blood Elves are still strangers, the Tauren dislike the constant war the orcs drag them into, the Goblins are here to make money, and the trolls are trying to not get wiped out again. That's a huge mess, but it makes for good storytelling. Conflict's interesting.

The Alliance...well. The Alliance has always been a shaky thing story-wise. Thematically, they're a mutual defense pact of political convenience. Each race has its own story, but the relationships between each race are bland, unexplored, and milquetoast at best. The Trials of the High King have smothered what little chance there was even further by having the races of the Alliance line up adoringly behind Varian, often at the expense of established characters (coughTyrande).

With the Alliance being the shining, moral, and united faction who uphold a very traditional sense of justice, they need something to bring that justice to. Voila, the Horde! But...the Horde is supposed to be a good faction, too. But the Alliance need something to fight and work against as the "just and righteous" faction.

See the problem?

Not only is the lack on conflict on the Alliance side put undue weight on the Horde to gin up conflict to run the story, but the utter lack of moral gray in the Alliance narrative inevitably paints Horde as evil when the two factions are compared side by side. Horde is stuck in a narrative rock-and-hard place with being the "bad" side, but still having to somehow justify being good guys too without staining the impeccable Alliance white.
Either

A) The Horde acts bad and the Alliance fights them, or

B) The main PvE baddies like the Legion, Old Gods, and Scourge are granted precedence in the Alliance story while less in the Horde story.

I don't find your "well then make the Alliance act as bad as the Horde" argument that I get the feeling you were waiting to get around to compelling, because then the game becomes pretties versus uglies with no real point of comparison beyond that.

Also bear in mind that if the Alliance becomes as "grey" as the Horde it would have to lead to permanent, decisive, irreversable victories over the Horde by the Alliance like it did for the Horde in Cataclysm. Lots of Horde players don't seem to consider this when they suggest that the Alliance be meaner.

Like, I'd gladly bring the Alliance down to the Horde's level if it meant that the Alliance reclaimed Lordaeron and the rest of Azeroth was terrified of screwing with them, but most Horde players balk at that potential development.
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  #639  
Old 01-16-2014, 04:36 PM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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I think this is the big problem? Blizz is so afraid of touching that Horde and Alliance "feel". They dont want to let them evolve. Hell, they're choosing the rehash old lore instead of going forward. Its a big problem with Blizz's writers clinging to old themes.

And thank you for the welcome.
I disagree, I think Blizzard was just fine touching the Alliance, "Feel." And by touching, I mean stripping it down and taking it away. Paladins? Argent Crusade now. You won't find any named, lore character worthy Paladins in the Alliance aside from Muraad who has had... has he even had an in-game appearance yet? Then you had Dalaran going neutral, though that's back now in a bitter-sweet fashion. Thalassian Elves went Horde, meaning one of the iconic races of the Alliance which greatly defined its, "Feel," is now a part of the Horde, etc...

The Alliance feels utterly hollow. Its major thematics have been all but stripped away to be made neutral so the Horde players can experience it (against their will) or it's just been outright given to them despite how poorly it fits into the Horde.
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  #640  
Old 01-16-2014, 04:36 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Either

A) The Horde acts bad and the Alliance fights them, or

B) The main PvE baddies like the Legion, Old Gods, and Scourge are granted precedence in the Alliance story while less in the Horde story.

I don't find your "well then make the Alliance act as bad as the Horde" argument that I get the feeling you were waiting to get around to compelling, because then the game becomes pretties versus uglies with no real point of comparison beyond that.
And this is why the alliance will always have no substance to them. Not prepared to have the alliance step over the line and do bad things in the name of there holier then thou mentality? Well then your never have anything more interesting to look forward to.

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  #641  
Old 01-16-2014, 04:44 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Also bear in mind that if the Alliance becomes as "grey" as the Horde it would have to lead to permanent, decisive, irreversable victories over the Horde by the Alliance like it did for the Horde in Cataclysm. Lots of Horde players don't seem to consider this when they suggest that the Alliance be meaner.
I'm okay with that.

But then again, I am the "let's again make storylines that end in burned up cities and slaughtered races" guy.

Sadly that is too long for a custom title.
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  #642  
Old 01-16-2014, 05:03 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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I'm okay with that.

But then again, I am the "let's again make storylines that end in burned up cities and slaughtered races" guy.

Sadly that is too long for a custom title.
thats never going to actually happen in wow, blizzard won't do that.

Its like a protective bubble, and while people want the bubble to pop and chaos to ensue, it doesn't, no matter how much the devs poke the bubble, they refuse to pop it, and so it all becomes pointless.

Why try to poke the surface if you don't intend to pop it, in that case, just do nothing at all, otherwise your just teasing the shit out of thousands of people.
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  #643  
Old 01-16-2014, 05:09 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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You're putting too much emphasis on an entity that can't really die. Cenarius can return, and in World of Warcraft's lifetime, we did indeed see him and return. It makes his death have far less impact than you're making it out to be.

Taking into account that the Horde aided in the Third War and such, and that the Night Elves are close to the Tauren, on top of the Orc's desire to redeem themselves, and you have the makings for the Night Elves to show a faint interest in potentially guiding them to a better culture and society. This doesn't mean they join the Horde or even become allies; simply friendly relations.

Meanwhile the Alliance is boasting Mages out the wazoo and we all know how the Night Elves view magic. Between the Alliance and the Horde, it feels like less of an ass pull for the Night Elves to have been -Friendly- to the Horde and Unfriendly towards the Alliance.

Until Cataclysm happened and the Twilights started messing with beings from other dimensions, Cenarius was dead on Azeroth. He was not coming back]. Period. Until something weakened the wall enough he was able to return. Which was kind of an ass pull by Blizzard because they then had to twist Cenarius into pretzels to show why he didn't kill every orc on Hyjal and lead an avenging army of Ancients down after kicking Rags back into his plane to kill the rest of them for desecrating HIS woodlands. If the Cataclysm hadn't happened, Cenarius would still be dead and just a spirit in the Emerald Dream. Saying now that his death wouldn't have had a bad impact on the Kaldorei is pretty silly and foolish. If the Kaldorei knew he would return, then you could make that claim, but they did not and as far as they and anyone else knew, he was dead on Azeroth. It should not be something so easily forgotten about like you are suggesting. The Cenarion Circle should have been more forthcoming and hostile/aggressive to the orcs too for killing their god.

The Kaldorei aren't that close to the tauren. The Alliance also helped out in the Third War, so please do not discount their help and they, unlike the Horde, did not kill one of the Kaldorei gods. The orcs also had a proven record of bloodthirsty destruction on the scale of the Burning Legion. Humans do not. That's not to say that the Kaldorei would immediately warm to humans and the Alliance, because of mages, but overall, the Alliance is a hell of a lot more respectful of land and sovereign territory and it will actually apologize.

I can see the Kaldorei trusting the taurens somewhat and the orcs barely at all. As long as the orcs stay out of Kaldorei land, I can see the Kaldorei leaving them alone. I also do not see the Kaldorei sharing wisps or wood or much of anything either. The tauren might have been able to help the orcs get wood and such, but not from the Kaldorei.

The Horde was using warlocks, which is a hell of a lot worse than mages in the Kaldorei's eyes. Mages are bad enough. Warlocks? that should have been damned near another unforgivable thing. Anything but Unfriendly to the orcs and thereby most of the Horde would feel very strange. Alliance, neutral to low friendly.
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  #644  
Old 01-16-2014, 05:11 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Until Cataclysm happened and the Twilights started messing with beings from other dimensions, Cenarius was dead on Azeroth. He was not coming back]. Period. Until something weakened the wall enough he was able to return. Which was kind of an ass pull by Blizzard because they then had to twist Cenarius into pretzels to show why he didn't kill every orc on Hyjal and lead an avenging army of Ancients down after kicking Rags back into his plane to kill the rest of them for desecrating HIS woodlands. If the Cataclysm hadn't happened, Cenarius would still be dead and just a spirit in the Emerald Dream. Saying now that his death wouldn't have had a bad impact on the Kaldorei is pretty silly and foolish. If the Kaldorei knew he would return, then you could make that claim, but they did not and as far as they and anyone else knew, he was dead on Azeroth. It should not be something so easily forgotten about like you are suggesting. The Cenarion Circle should have been more forthcoming and hostile/aggressive to the orcs too for killing their god.

The Kaldorei aren't that close to the tauren. The Alliance also helped out in the Third War, so please do not discount their help and they, unlike the Horde, did not kill one of the Kaldorei gods. The orcs also had a proven record of bloodthirsty destruction on the scale of the Burning Legion. Humans do not. That's not to say that the Kaldorei would immediately warm to humans and the Alliance, because of mages, but overall, the Alliance is a hell of a lot more respectful of land and sovereign territory and it will actually apologize.

I can see the Kaldorei trusting the taurens somewhat and the orcs barely at all. As long as the orcs stay out of Kaldorei land, I can see the Kaldorei leaving them alone. I also do not see the Kaldorei sharing wisps or wood or much of anything either. The tauren might have been able to help the orcs get wood and such, but not from the Kaldorei.

The Horde was using warlocks, which is a hell of a lot worse than mages in the Kaldorei's eyes. Mages are bad enough. Warlocks? that should have been damned near another unforgivable thing. Anything but Unfriendly to the orcs and thereby most of the Horde would feel very strange. Alliance, neutral to low friendly.
Tauren and Night Elves have (or had) a Blood Feud that lasted for generations active as close as Vanilla.
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  #645  
Old 01-16-2014, 05:21 PM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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I'm okay with that.

But then again, I am the "let's again make storylines that end in burned up cities and slaughtered races" guy.

Sadly that is too long for a custom title.
I'm with you too. In fact, I'd prefer to have actually lost the war at the end of Siege of Orgrimmar. I welcome the repercussions!

I want the Horde territories reduced to just Durotar, Northern Barrens, Mulgore, Azshara, Tirisfal, Silverpine, Hillsbrad, Eversong, and Ghostlands

I want the Alliance to keep Elwynn, Westfall, Redridge, Duskwood, Dun Morogh, Loch Modan, Wetlands, Teldrassil, Darkshore, Azuremyst, and Bloodmyst.

I want the Alliance to gain/regain Ashenvale, Arathi Highlands, Swamp of Sorrows, Gilneas, Southern Barrens, Dustwallow Marsh (park Dalaran above it to keep an eye on the Horde), Twilight Highlands (no Dragonmaw), and Stonetalon.

I want Orgrimmar left in ruins and Sylvanas closely monitored. I don't mind seeing goblins forced to share Azshara with now-homeless orcs. I would enjoy the sight of widows mourning the loss of their dead Kor'kron mates and Darkspear parents mourning their sons who were wrongfully executed by Hellscream.

Because it all serves a purpose, it all contributes to the moral of Pandaria. In the current incarnation, I feel the moral has been missed, passed over to avoid the possibility of hurting the players' feelings (not necessarily hurting their in-game territories) rather than actually telling a good story.

If to fight a war from anger and hate is to fight a war that never ends, then show me the consequences of following that leader for the orcs, and the consequences it has on those who surround the ones that fight from anger and hate - show me that even the races of the Horde mistrust the orcs because of how their leadership and army behaved!

Can "the Horde is family" excuse the orcs in the eyes of a troll who had her closest friend gunned down by a Kor'kron guard? Can every pandaren in the Horde forgive and forget after orcs nearly killed Ji Firepaw? Even the Forsaken, who had been oppressed by orcs in the years past, have to see the irony that the orcs should now be pariahs within the Horde as the undead are.

My favourite faction is the Forsaken, my main role-play character is a Huojin warrior who is extremely pro-Horde, but I don't mind losing if it's done well and serves a purpose! MoP failed to do both, our loss was pointless.
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  #646  
Old 01-16-2014, 09:20 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Either

A) The Horde acts bad and the Alliance fights them, or

B) The main PvE baddies like the Legion, Old Gods, and Scourge are granted precedence in the Alliance story while less in the Horde story.

I don't find your "well then make the Alliance act as bad as the Horde" argument that I get the feeling you were waiting to get around to compelling, because then the game becomes pretties versus uglies with no real point of comparison beyond that.

Also bear in mind that if the Alliance becomes as "grey" as the Horde it would have to lead to permanent, decisive, irreversable victories over the Horde by the Alliance like it did for the Horde in Cataclysm. Lots of Horde players don't seem to consider this when they suggest that the Alliance be meaner.

Like, I'd gladly bring the Alliance down to the Horde's level if it meant that the Alliance reclaimed Lordaeron and the rest of Azeroth was terrified of screwing with them, but most Horde players balk at that potential development.
Yeah... we aren't negotiating with you.
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  #647  
Old 01-16-2014, 09:30 PM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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I'm with you too. In fact, I'd prefer to have actually lost the war at the end of Siege of Orgrimmar. I welcome the repercussions!

I want the Horde territories reduced to just Durotar, Northern Barrens, Mulgore, Azshara, Tirisfal, Silverpine, Hillsbrad, Eversong, and Ghostlands

I want the Alliance to keep Elwynn, Westfall, Redridge, Duskwood, Dun Morogh, Loch Modan, Wetlands, Teldrassil, Darkshore, Azuremyst, and Bloodmyst.

I want the Alliance to gain/regain Ashenvale, Arathi Highlands, Swamp of Sorrows, Gilneas, Southern Barrens, Dustwallow Marsh (park Dalaran above it to keep an eye on the Horde), Twilight Highlands (no Dragonmaw), and Stonetalon.

I want Orgrimmar left in ruins and Sylvanas closely monitored. I don't mind seeing goblins forced to share Azshara with now-homeless orcs. I would enjoy the sight of widows mourning the loss of their dead Kor'kron mates and Darkspear parents mourning their sons who were wrongfully executed by Hellscream.

Because it all serves a purpose, it all contributes to the moral of Pandaria. In the current incarnation, I feel the moral has been missed, passed over to avoid the possibility of hurting the players' feelings (not necessarily hurting their in-game territories) rather than actually telling a good story.

If to fight a war from anger and hate is to fight a war that never ends, then show me the consequences of following that leader for the orcs, and the consequences it has on those who surround the ones that fight from anger and hate - show me that even the races of the Horde mistrust the orcs because of how their leadership and army behaved!

Can "the Horde is family" excuse the orcs in the eyes of a troll who had her closest friend gunned down by a Kor'kron guard? Can every pandaren in the Horde forgive and forget after orcs nearly killed Ji Firepaw? Even the Forsaken, who had been oppressed by orcs in the years past, have to see the irony that the orcs should now be pariahs within the Horde as the undead are.

My favourite faction is the Forsaken, my main role-play character is a Huojin warrior who is extremely pro-Horde, but I don't mind losing if it's done well and serves a purpose! MoP failed to do both, our loss was pointless.
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  #648  
Old 01-16-2014, 09:33 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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I want Hillsbrad too.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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  #649  
Old 01-16-2014, 09:34 PM
Odok Odok is offline

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My only issue is the dissonance between what the Horde players want to do and what the narrative forces them into doing.
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  #650  
Old 01-16-2014, 09:36 PM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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I want Hillsbrad too.
We should just put Dalaran back where it belongs. If Varian wants to, 'Contain,' the Forsaken, the Crater seems a good place for a massive city that is a veritable fortress of magic. Considering the Kirin Tor has the Focusing Iris and Jaina has the Thunder King's power as well, that should be -enough- nuclear deterrent to make Sylvanas second-guess using the Blight.

Secure Hillsbrad, and Silverpine up to the Shadowfang Keep-Ambermill line and all is well.
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