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  #651  
Old 01-16-2014, 09:36 PM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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My only issue is the dissonance between what the Horde players want to do and what the narrative forces them into doing.
Such is the problem facing many RPGs, not just MMO's.
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  #652  
Old 01-16-2014, 09:41 PM
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Such is the problem facing many RPGs, not just MMO's.
Basically.

There'd be a lot less bitching is people were actually allowed to roleplay their characters. Even if the story doesn't go the way some players want, it's a big release to at least feel like you have an opinion in what's going on through your characters' actions.
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  #653  
Old 01-16-2014, 09:43 PM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Odok View Post
Basically.

There'd be a lot less bitching is people were actually allowed to roleplay their characters. Even if the story doesn't go the way some players want, it's a big release to at least feel like you have an opinion in what's going on through your characters' actions.
Issue is, as far as most company's are concerned, the majority of players for MMOs and such games are primarily interested in gameplay. Story doesn't really come into the equation. No one wants to have some named Lore NPC show up their own character or anything.
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  #654  
Old 01-16-2014, 10:14 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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People who want open-ended roleplaying to that degree should be tabletopping, because it's going to be a good 50 years at least before video games can provide similar freedom.

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We should just put Dalaran back where it belongs. If Varian wants to, 'Contain,' the Forsaken, the Crater seems a good place for a massive city that is a veritable fortress of magic. Considering the Kirin Tor has the Focusing Iris and Jaina has the Thunder King's power as well, that should be -enough- nuclear deterrent to make Sylvanas second-guess using the Blight.

Secure Hillsbrad, and Silverpine up to the Shadowfang Keep-Ambermill line and all is well.
I also want a high ranking Alliance NPC to say that "containment" is only going to last until the Forsaken's numbers are sufficiently reduced that the Alliance can basically walk in.
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  #655  
Old 01-16-2014, 10:23 PM
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I'm with you too. In fact, I'd prefer to have actually lost the war at the end of Siege of Orgrimmar. I welcome the repercussions!

I want the Horde territories reduced to just Durotar, Northern Barrens, Mulgore, Azshara, Tirisfal, Silverpine, Hillsbrad, Eversong, and Ghostlands

I want the Alliance to keep Elwynn, Westfall, Redridge, Duskwood, Dun Morogh, Loch Modan, Wetlands, Teldrassil, Darkshore, Azuremyst, and Bloodmyst.

I want the Alliance to gain/regain Ashenvale, Arathi Highlands, Swamp of Sorrows, Gilneas, Southern Barrens, Dustwallow Marsh (park Dalaran above it to keep an eye on the Horde), Twilight Highlands (no Dragonmaw), and Stonetalon.

I want Orgrimmar left in ruins and Sylvanas closely monitored. I don't mind seeing goblins forced to share Azshara with now-homeless orcs. I would enjoy the sight of widows mourning the loss of their dead Kor'kron mates and Darkspear parents mourning their sons who were wrongfully executed by Hellscream.

Because it all serves a purpose, it all contributes to the moral of Pandaria. In the current incarnation, I feel the moral has been missed, passed over to avoid the possibility of hurting the players' feelings (not necessarily hurting their in-game territories) rather than actually telling a good story.

If to fight a war from anger and hate is to fight a war that never ends, then show me the consequences of following that leader for the orcs, and the consequences it has on those who surround the ones that fight from anger and hate - show me that even the races of the Horde mistrust the orcs because of how their leadership and army behaved!

Can "the Horde is family" excuse the orcs in the eyes of a troll who had her closest friend gunned down by a Kor'kron guard? Can every pandaren in the Horde forgive and forget after orcs nearly killed Ji Firepaw? Even the Forsaken, who had been oppressed by orcs in the years past, have to see the irony that the orcs should now be pariahs within the Horde as the undead are.

My favourite faction is the Forsaken, my main role-play character is a Huojin warrior who is extremely pro-Horde, but I don't mind losing if it's done well and serves a purpose! MoP failed to do both, our loss was pointless.
Course, mechanically that'd be hugely problematic.
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  #656  
Old 01-16-2014, 10:27 PM
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I want Hillsbrad too.
To be fair, you also want the Horde to cease existing as a faction.
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  #657  
Old 01-16-2014, 10:29 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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To be fair, you also want the Horde to cease existing as a faction.
Why is he like that?
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  #658  
Old 01-16-2014, 10:29 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
To be fair, you also want the Horde to cease existing as a faction.
Anyone who legitimately desires a coherent, logical storyline where actions have consequences has to admit that the Horde should've ceased existing a while ago.
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You are right Fojar.
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  #659  
Old 01-16-2014, 10:46 PM
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Alliance haven't done anything that is "bad" they just defend their lands, Horde get forced into starting the war and stuff, coz Garrosh came and blizzard forced stuff onto him and shit happened. Alliance have always felt like the allies, horde felt like a biker gang, then later elves joined and Thrall met Brown orcs without demon blood. and shit. the only "Evul" humans have done might be relatable to cults or pirates, but that's less evil cuz of evul.

I am not one to expect realism from a fantasy franchise though. Doubt that the gravity and shit on azeroth is 9,82 newton towards the core or whatever Azeroth has.
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  #660  
Old 01-16-2014, 11:01 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
Issue is, as far as most company's are concerned, the majority of players for MMOs and such games are primarily interested in gameplay. Story doesn't really come into the equation. No one wants to have some named Lore NPC show up their own character or anything.
Blizzard's actually put a lot more emphasis into story in the recent expansions. Each zone has its own storyline, for instance. However, this actually ends up feeling like a limitation since it forces your character into a specific role. Earlier, since the quests weren't so closely tied together, you could still do okay when you skipped a few that were out-of-character for whom you played.

Granted, I think most RPers ignore this anyway, so it's not really that much of an issue.
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  #661  
Old 01-16-2014, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Anyone who legitimately desires a coherent, logical storyline where actions have consequences has to admit that the Horde should've ceased existing a while ago.
Anyone who legitimately desires a coherent, logical storyline where actions have consequences has to admit that Warcraft has always been the wrong horse to back as a franchise.
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  #662  
Old 01-17-2014, 02:13 AM
Finarfin Finarfin is offline

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Anyone who legitimately desires a coherent, logical storyline where actions have consequences has to admit that Warcraft has always been the wrong horse to back as a franchise.
Well for what it's worth, I was severely disappointed by backing up Diablo and Starcraft as well considering how watered down the latest games felt.
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  #663  
Old 01-17-2014, 02:16 AM
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Well for what it's worth, I was severely disappointed by backing up Diablo and Starcraft as well considering how watered down the latest games felt.
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  #664  
Old 01-17-2014, 03:58 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Valtheria View Post
I'm with you too. In fact, I'd prefer to have actually lost the war at the end of Siege of Orgrimmar. I welcome the repercussions!

I want the Horde territories reduced to just Durotar, Northern Barrens, Mulgore, Azshara, Tirisfal, Silverpine, Hillsbrad, Eversong, and Ghostlands

I want the Alliance to keep Elwynn, Westfall, Redridge, Duskwood, Dun Morogh, Loch Modan, Wetlands, Teldrassil, Darkshore, Azuremyst, and Bloodmyst.

I want the Alliance to gain/regain Ashenvale, Arathi Highlands, Swamp of Sorrows, Gilneas, Southern Barrens, Dustwallow Marsh (park Dalaran above it to keep an eye on the Horde), Twilight Highlands (no Dragonmaw), and Stonetalon.

I want Orgrimmar left in ruins and Sylvanas closely monitored. I don't mind seeing goblins forced to share Azshara with now-homeless orcs. I would enjoy the sight of widows mourning the loss of their dead Kor'kron mates and Darkspear parents mourning their sons who were wrongfully executed by Hellscream.

Because it all serves a purpose, it all contributes to the moral of Pandaria. In the current incarnation, I feel the moral has been missed, passed over to avoid the possibility of hurting the players' feelings (not necessarily hurting their in-game territories) rather than actually telling a good story.

If to fight a war from anger and hate is to fight a war that never ends, then show me the consequences of following that leader for the orcs, and the consequences it has on those who surround the ones that fight from anger and hate - show me that even the races of the Horde mistrust the orcs because of how their leadership and army behaved!

Can "the Horde is family" excuse the orcs in the eyes of a troll who had her closest friend gunned down by a Kor'kron guard? Can every pandaren in the Horde forgive and forget after orcs nearly killed Ji Firepaw? Even the Forsaken, who had been oppressed by orcs in the years past, have to see the irony that the orcs should now be pariahs within the Horde as the undead are.

My favourite faction is the Forsaken, my main role-play character is a Huojin warrior who is extremely pro-Horde, but I don't mind losing if it's done well and serves a purpose! MoP failed to do both, our loss was pointless.
A lot could be done if just the writers had their hands untied. This is why that entire point (but it is not the only quality issue, mind) boils down to Gameplay>Story, and that such a treatment is wrong.

And while I want massive conflicts which change the landscape of entire zones, because of your actions not because Deathwing farted off-screen. Campaigns which end in sacked cities and homeless populations, just like in the RTS games when stories mattered. Did the undead Scourge spare Capital City because it is unfair to human players that the undead won their own campaign? And what would we be talking about if that had happened? Nothing good I'm sure (even Fojar wouldn't like that, trust me).

So while I want all that, I am sad to say that most people, even on this forum, would not like that. They just like their status quo too much and are not willing to sacrifice things for good stories, and so here we are.
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  #665  
Old 01-17-2014, 04:14 AM
Finarfin Finarfin is offline

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So while I want all that, I am sad to say that most people, even on this forum, would not like that. They just like their status quo too much and are not willing to sacrifice things for good stories, and so here we are.
I'm all for changing the status quo though like you said we're probably in the minority. Just out of curiosity though, I keep hearing that gameplay trumps story. Is that more of a convenient excuse used by Blizzard to pass off their sloppiness or is that actually true? If executed right, wouldn't a game that offers good gameplay with a kick-arse story be a much better option? I can understand that limited resources mean Blizzard can't devote their energies 100% to each aspect of the game but c'mon...it sometimes feels like Blizzard puts in as little effort as it can with the sort of inconsistent story WoW currently has. Same goes for Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2.
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  #666  
Old 01-17-2014, 04:28 AM
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I'm all for changing the status quo.2.
Same. Of course, for Blizzard shacking up the status quo means splitting the world evenly between the Horde and Alliance, as seen in Cataclysm.
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  #667  
Old 01-17-2014, 04:39 AM
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Same. Of course, for Blizzard shacking up the status quo means splitting the world evenly between the Horde and Alliance, as seen in Cataclysm.
Yah, I remember the drama going on the story forums with people whining over who got the lower end of the stick in terms of number of zones. All that talk about "equivalent exchange" reminded me of FMA
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  #668  
Old 01-17-2014, 04:42 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Finarfin View Post
I'm all for changing the status quo though like you said we're probably in the minority. Just out of curiosity though, I keep hearing that gameplay trumps story. Is that more of a convenient excuse used by Blizzard to pass of their sloppiness or is that actually true? If executed right, wouldn't a game that offers good gameplay with a kick-arse story be a much better option? I can understand that limited resources mean Blizzard can't devote their energies 100% to each aspect of the game but c'mon...it sometimes feels like Blizzard puts in as little effort as it can with the sort of inconsistent story WoW currently has. Same goes for Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2.
Yes, at least in my opinion. Blizzard could have a kickass gameplay and a story that will be talked about for years, but they are far too lazy and complacent to actually do it.

For example even a faction reduced to one rebel camp (an extreme, extreme scenario) can have an AH, all the needed merchants, it can level in unphased zones and storywise can always get a bunch of good Samaritans to go and do the latest raid.
At the same time they will be enjoying an immersive and realistic story, where their actions and fate brought them to that point, and where their own strength and cunning can get them back to a position of power, and in time, revenge.
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  #669  
Old 01-17-2014, 04:50 AM
Lutinz Lutinz is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Anyone who legitimately desires a coherent, logical storyline where actions have consequences has to admit that the Horde should've ceased existing a while ago.
Perhaps but its a completely unrealistic expectation which would cost Blizzard millions in revenue. There is no way half the playerbase would willingly swallow such a change.

Unless Blizzards execs suddenly become financially suicidal it will never happen. The alliance ever retaking Lordaeron is only slightly more likely.

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Yes, at least in my opinion. Blizzard could have a kickass gameplay and a story that will be talked about for years, but they are far too lazy and complacent to actually do it.

For example even a faction reduced to one rebel camp (an extreme, extreme scenario) can have an AH, all the needed merchants, it can level in unphased zones and storywise can always get a bunch of good Samaritans to go and do the latest raid.
At the same time they will be enjoying an immersive and realistic story, where their actions and fate brought them to that point, and where their own strength and cunning can get them back to a position of power, and in time, revenge.
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A lot could be done if just the writers had their hands untied. This is why that entire point (but it is not the only quality issue, mind) boils down to Gameplay>Story, and that such a treatment is wrong.

And while I want massive conflicts which change the landscape of entire zones, because of your actions not because Deathwing farted off-screen. Campaigns which end in sacked cities and homeless populations, just like in the RTS games when stories mattered. Did the undead Scourge spare Capital City because it is unfair to human players that the undead won their own campaign? And what would we be talking about if that had happened? Nothing good I'm sure (even Fojar wouldn't like that, trust me).

So while I want all that, I am sad to say that most people, even on this forum, would not like that. They just like their status quo too much and are not willing to sacrifice things for good stories, and so here we are.
While you make valid points there is a key issue here and that is the complete lack of choice that horde players have had in the story. Weither they want to or not horde player have been tied to the path Blizzard chose for the horde, in many cases unwillingly. I've had friends quit WoW over the storyline they took the Horde down. They took away the horde we did play and replaced it with something very different.

Worse, not only were we powerless to stop it happening, the story was portrayed in a way to suggest our characters actually willingly went along with it.

In such a scenario making the faction pay for their crimes and actions fells incredibly unfair to the players on the receiving end. It feels like being punished for something they didn't do. What choice did they have? Were they supposed to just quit playing if they didn't want to play Alliance?

I don't think that's the type of thought process Blizzard wants to promote. Most horde players don't play the horde to play villians. This is reinforced by the actions the player takes, fighting along side Anduin and Brann, protecting the Pandarian from threats and fighting off the various 'evils'.

To write the story as you suggest they would have to right a very different story from scratch and potentially sell the game in a very different way.

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  #670  
Old 01-17-2014, 05:00 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
Yes, at least in my opinion. Blizzard could have a kickass gameplay and a story that will be talked about for years, but they are far too lazy and complacent to actually do it.

For example even a faction reduced to one rebel camp (an extreme, extreme scenario) can have an AH, all the needed merchants, it can level in unphased zones and storywise can always get a bunch of good Samaritans to go and do the latest raid.
At the same time they will be enjoying an immersive and realistic story, where their actions and fate brought them to that point, and where their own strength and cunning can get them back to a position of power, and in time, revenge.
I like your way of thinking.

(I still don't agree that trying to occupy Orgrimmar would've been a good course of action for the Alliance, though. An increased presence in Durotar I would not have minded. )
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  #671  
Old 01-17-2014, 05:05 AM
Finarfin Finarfin is offline

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I like your way of thinking.
I second that.

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(I still don't agree that trying to occupy Orgrimmar would've been a good course of action for the Alliance, though. An increased presence in Durotar I would not have minded. )
Perhaps trying to occupy it would not have been a good course of action but it would have been nice if the Horde had faced some form of being "dismantled" as a consequence of their actions in Cata and MoP. Still find it amusing that after defeating Garrosh, Sylvanas is just just standing there along with Varian while the latter goes on about reclaiming Gilneas. Found that bit rather hilarious.
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  #672  
Old 01-17-2014, 06:24 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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To write the story as you suggest they would have to write a very different story from scratch and potentially sell the game in a very different way.
Probably, and I hope you agree that is a good thing.

About SoO itself, some sort of occupation or devastation was in order if WoW was a realistic setting. It is a blunder of past storytelling admittedly and it is not fair towards Horde players, but it is a realistic story. Which means future stories will be (if we follow this model) better for both factions.
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  #673  
Old 01-17-2014, 06:39 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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I also want a high ranking Alliance NPC to say that "containment" is only going to last until the Forsaken's numbers are sufficiently reduced that the Alliance can basically walk in.
Or until the Alliance can covertly get the Forsaken kicked out of the Horde. How they've remained in the Horde this long is a mystery to me. How they got in is a mystery. Well... neither is a mystery. Game Mechanics. Story wise, however, I can't see how they've continued being in the Horde so long.

Heck, if Garrosh of all people can play the Sunreavers and Kirin Tor against one another and cause a split, the Alliance should have been able to do something similar with the Forsaken ages ago.

As it is, I'm just waiting for Warcraft 4 or World of Warcraft to end and the novels to have more free reign before I start overtly caring about the story again. I don't think Blizzard can write while the MMO continues.
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:08 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Gameplay isn't really the excuse why Blizzard half-asses things so much, since Blizzard could have just chosen a gameplay friendly storyline and tossed in battlegrounds without concerning themselves much for the lore.

And if Blizzard really wanted to show a faction war with no consequences, they could have just had every contested zone end with "thanks, player! You've killed the no-name commander and some grunts of the enemies forces. We'd have gone on to victory, but our own no-name commander and some grunts were killed by the Alliance's supersoldier. Oh well, maybe next time!"
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:15 AM
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It's been said before no doubt, but after doing SoO last night (or a large chunk of it) - I'm again reminded that the Orcs got utterly fucked. So many named NPCs dead, dozens (in-game, in-Lore probably more like hundreds if not thousands) of unnamed Kor'kron Orcs.

It really makes no sense at all at this point that the Orcs can even exist as a military power, let alone one that claims to be at the "Heart" of the Horde. Their numbers were already dangerously low (which makes Garrosh Orc North Korean Army make even less sense, but this IS Blizzard so I digress) before Cata due to the Wars in Northrend.

This was the perfect chance for Blizzard to revamp the Horde into something oher than "Hurrrrr Orcs and token friends!" - but what do we get? WoD, when, no doubt, at the end we'll get a massive influx of AU-Orcs to replace MU-Orcs losses.

I fucking despair of this franchise sometimes.
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