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  #676  
Old 01-17-2014, 08:20 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
I fucking despair of this franchise sometimes.
Soon you will lose hope in a WC4, then you will be ready to join us in The Cynics Society.

EDIT: Well, it seems you're already there. A promotion then, when you despair completely.
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  #677  
Old 01-17-2014, 12:46 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
Gameplay isn't really the excuse why Blizzard half-asses things so much, since Blizzard could have just chosen a gameplay friendly storyline and tossed in battlegrounds without concerning themselves much for the lore.

And if Blizzard really wanted to show a faction war with no consequences, they could have just had every contested zone end with "thanks, player! You've killed the no-name commander and some grunts of the enemies forces. We'd have gone on to victory, but our own no-name commander and some grunts were killed by the Alliance's supersoldier. Oh well, maybe next time!"
exactly. The lore in wow trying to support any idea of a war between horde and alliance is just a battleground. Both sides piss around, beat up each other, some side somethings gets point, the other side sometimes gets points, and the battleground remains exactly the same that you rinse and repeat.

Blizzard are kidding themselves if they think they can make this games story more then that. The premise won't allow it to happen, so trying to please the little shits who keep trying out 'we need more waaaaaaaar in waaaaaarcraft' will never achieve anything.
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  #678  
Old 01-18-2014, 07:47 PM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Course, mechanically that'd be hugely problematic.
Only necessary mechanical change is Orgrimmar in ruins and some NPCs in Silvermoon. I don't want/expect them to redo the other zones, I just want lore that says "this happened after MoP".
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  #679  
Old 01-18-2014, 08:25 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Anyone who legitimately desires a coherent, logical storyline where actions have consequences has to admit that the Horde should've ceased existing a while ago.
Or y'know, the Horde could've behaved like sane people and not -needed- to fall apart and such.

But that's impossible in your mind because you want humans to be perfect and orcs to be monsters forever.
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  #680  
Old 01-18-2014, 08:33 PM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Or y'know, the Horde could've behaved like sane people and not -needed- to fall apart and such.

But that's impossible in your mind because you want humans to be perfect and orcs to be monsters forever.
Frankly, this would have been preferable, I'm just offering solutions to the mess we have on the eve of 5.4.
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  #681  
Old 01-18-2014, 09:08 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Frankly, this would have been preferable, I'm just offering solutions to the mess we have on the eve of 5.4.
You're fine, I just hate Fojar.

"Oh the writing for the Alliance has been shit but the Horde's has allowed them to get away with everything! In no way shape or form has the actual characterization suffered, they were always monsters and that's all they ever could've been!"
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  #682  
Old 01-18-2014, 09:21 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Why did Blizzard have to do what people like Fojar wanted? There was a lot of revision in the story and out of the blue elements to give them want they wanted. Garrosh was a stupid decision from day one. No one wanted that. The comics white washed a lot of the things that the Alliance did that players considered bad to make them better. The Alliance had gray morality in Warcraft III up until Burning Crusade. Varian Wrynn comes back and everything bad the Alliance has ever done is either revised or solved.

I don't understand why people like Fojar want this.
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  #683  
Old 01-18-2014, 09:31 PM
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I think the Orcs and Trolls should be utterly decimated after their civil war, with the Tauren trying to help. Then the Blood Elves should finally achieve a higher position in the Horde by helping them out and negociating with the Alliance to spare the survivors. And of course, Sylvanas' head is chopped because there is no progress in the Horde story while she still live.

Yep, that's what should have happened.

Think about it, what always caused problems between the Horde and Alliance was the fact that the Orcs and basically every Alliance race besides Night Elves had a different mentality. With the Blood Elves who are former members of the Alliance in charge, that problem would be much less present.
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  #684  
Old 01-18-2014, 09:59 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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The orcs are big and scary Trickster. If you do something they don't like they beat you up. They are simple and uneducated too so it isn't like you can reason or negotiate with them. Don't they look like bullies? Rescue the blood elves! They are the princesses in another castle.
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  #685  
Old 01-18-2014, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
The orcs are big and scary Trickster. If you do something they don't like they beat you up. They are simple and uneducated too so it isn't like you can reason or negotiate with them. Don't they look like bullies? Rescue the blood elves! They are the princesses in another castle.
I am terribly sorry your favorite race got screwed because the Horde couldn't be made compelling enough with it's own themes. It also pisses me off if that helps.

But now? I can only offer you a clean death.
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  #686  
Old 01-18-2014, 10:04 PM
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I am terribly sorry your favorite race got screwed because the Horde couldn't be made compelling enough with it's own themes. It also pisses me off if that helps.

But now? I can only offer you a clean death.
Bullshit, the Horde's plenty compelling with its own themes, the Alliance can't be anything but perfect soft and gentle good without people having a hissy fit though and so the Horde was forced to be the bad guy again.
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  #687  
Old 01-18-2014, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Bullshit, the Horde's plenty compelling with its own themes, the Alliance can't be anything but perfect soft and gentle good without people having a hissy fit though and so the Horde was forced to be the bad guy again.
Shit, getting hit with the villain bat repeatedly is compelling now?
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  #688  
Old 01-18-2014, 10:17 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Bullshit, the Horde's plenty compelling with its own themes, the Alliance can't be anything but perfect soft and gentle good without people having a hissy fit though and so the Horde was forced to be the bad guy again.
Not according to the playerbase. An Alliance race was given to the Horde to have more players play in that faction.
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  #689  
Old 01-18-2014, 10:27 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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The night elves weren't an Alliance race before WoW and they are a popular race. People play the more human looking races.

The blood elves were said to get more people to roll Horde that would normally only play Alliance. They wanted more people to play both factions. I know in vanilla I made an undead character just to see Lordaeorn. Seeing Quel'thalas really persuaded me though.

I didn't mind the Horde as much when it wasn't bad. The orcs as noble savages was a cool concept. I liked the orthodox honor and misunderstood angle. It also make the Horde very unique as a hero faction. Almost every fantasy game has castles to play in and slay monsters and dragons. Warcraft was unique in that regard.

Then Blizzard went and threw all that away.

Last edited by PajamaSalad; 01-18-2014 at 10:37 PM..
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  #690  
Old 01-18-2014, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
The night elves weren't any Alliance race before WoW and they are a popular race. People play the more human looking races.

The blood elves were said to get more people to roll Horde that would normally only play Alliance. They wanted more people to play both factions. I know in vanilla I made an undead character just to see Lordaeorn. Seeing Quel'thalas really persuaded me though.

I didn't mind the Horde as much when it wasn't bad. The orcs as noble savages was a cool concept. I liked the orthodox honor and misunderstood angle. It also make the Horde very unique as a hero faction. Almost every fantasy game has castles to play in and slay monsters and dragons. Warcraft was unique in that regard.

Then Blizzard went and threw all that away.
The Orcs stopped being misunderstood savages the moment they decided to kill their blue neighbors on Draenor. There's nothing tragic about them at all. The only tragic thing in Orcish history is the other race's victims they caused.
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  #691  
Old 01-18-2014, 10:43 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Trickster View Post
Not according to the playerbase. An Alliance race was given to the Horde to have more players play in that faction.
That's aesthetics, that's -entirely different- from having a compelling story.

If orcs didn't have the bullshit hunch and trolls didn't clip and could blink and shit the Horde'd be fine.

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Originally Posted by EdWunclerIII View Post
Shit, getting hit with the villain bat repeatedly is compelling now?
Do you actually understand the arguments being made here at all?
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  #692  
Old 01-18-2014, 10:48 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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The Orcs stopped being misunderstood savages the moment they decided to kill their blue neighbors on Draenor. There's nothing tragic about them at all. The only tragic thing in Orcish history is the other race's victims they caused.

And asthetics are a theme, to some extent.
We thought the demon blood was pure mind control(like the scourge) and that the orcs drank it before they killed the draenei. Before RotH that was my assumption.

Sometimes I wonder if it would of been better for the night elves to be Horde and the blood elves and forsaken to be Alliance. Then they would have Lordaeron. The Horde would of gotten the new theme and the Alliance could of kept their old ones.
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  #693  
Old 01-18-2014, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
That's aesthetics, that's -entirely different- from having a compelling story.

If orcs didn't have the bullshit hunch and trolls didn't clip and could blink and shit the Horde'd be fine.
Asthetics are a theme.

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
We thought the demon blood was pure mind control(like the scourge) and that the orcs drank it before they killed the draenei. Before RotH that was my assumption.
1. The Draenei genocide started before the demon blood.
2. Control. Even with their raging drug, the Orcs are a bunch of imbeciles if they weren't able to realise what they did was wrong.
3. They never ammended after the demon blood thing.
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  #694  
Old 01-18-2014, 10:51 PM
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Asthetics are a theme.
Aesthetics are -part- of -a- theme.

They are not the sum of the Horde.

The argument "The Horde isn't pretty enough to be interesting" is bullshit too.

the argument "Horde models weren't pretty enough to be attractive in vanilla wow" is a decent one.
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  #695  
Old 01-18-2014, 10:56 PM
EdWunclerIII EdWunclerIII is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Do you actually understand the arguments being made here at all?
Yes I do. You might not though, which is fine.
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  #696  
Old 01-18-2014, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Aesthetics are -part- of -a- theme.

They are not the sum of the Horde.

The argument "The Horde isn't pretty enough to be interesting" is bullshit too.

the argument "Horde models weren't pretty enough to be attractive in vanilla wow" is a decent one.
Nice looking races are an Alliance thing. Brutish conquerors are a Horde thing. Players had a choice. But then Blizz decided to allow Horde players to be nice looking conquerors but the Alliance only got to stay nice looking. There you go, the Horde got an Alliance thing to have more players.


Even with new models, the Horde remains an organisation made of less pretty races that aren't close to Humans. It's not a model thing, it's a race thing.
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  #697  
Old 01-18-2014, 10:57 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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1. The Draenei genocide started before the demon blood.
2. Control. Even with their raging drug, the Orcs are a bunch of imbeciles if they weren't able to realise what they did was wrong.
3. They never ammended after the demon blood thing.
I know that. Before the book Rise of the Horde came out in 2006 that wasn't part of the lore. Warcraft III came out in 2002. In the mission where Grom drinks the demon blood it affected him so much that he turned on Thrall. Jaina and Thrall had to use magic to bring him back. Killing Mannoroth was suppose to free the orcs from the blood haze.

They helped save the world and settled in The Barrens for atonement. It didn't completely redeem them in the eyes of the Alliance but that is where the controversy came in. That is why Daelin Proudmoore attacked and there was a cold war in vanilla WoW.
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  #698  
Old 01-18-2014, 10:58 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Trickster View Post
1. The Draenei genocide started before the demon blood.
2. Control. Even with their raging drug, the Orcs are a bunch of imbeciles if they weren't able to realise what they did was wrong.
3. They never ammended after the demon blood thing.
1. Let's all be honest, this is one of those really stupid things wrong with the orc story. it's one of those "yeah you can kinda explain it because the orcs are so damn stupid before the legion found them" things that just does a disservice to everyone involved in the story.

The Draenei look stupid and weak for not fighting back and not realizing what happened earlier on and for luring the legion there in the first place because they didn't freaking know how to hide their magic. How the hell do a bunch of high elves figure that out if the supposed arcane masters can't?

2. The second part of what's really wrong with rise of the Horde. The demonblood never REALLY does anything besides make them bigger and stronger. This is at odds with KIL'JAEDENS DAMN DESCRIPTION OF WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO.

3. Honestly everything just makes more sense and makes for a better story if it happened more like...

Ner'zhul: I got a vision the draenei are plotting against us!

Orcs: That sounds like bad news.

Ancestors: Here, we made you all a magic drink that will give you the strength to defend yourselves.

Gul'dan: Drink up everybody.

Orcs: Okay.

Demons: Haha, fooled you all! Now go kill the Draenei.

Orcs: WAAAAAAGH!

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Trickster View Post
Nice looking races are an Alliance thing. Brutish conquerors are a Horde thing. Players had a choice. But then Blizz decided to allow Horde players to be nice looking conquerors but the Alliance only got to stay nice looking. There you go, the Horde got an Alliance thing to have more players.


Even with new models, the Horde remains an organisation made of less pretty races that aren't close to Humans. It's not a model thing, it's a race thing.
The orcs don't look brutish most of the time, they look stupid. Literally every orc looks like a peon.

If the Horde looked like it did in WC3 instead of looking stupid we wouldn't have needed the belfs hordeside.

Ideally I'm thinking Belfs would still have worked with the Horde but never been playable, a mirror to Helfs nonplayable alliance side.
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Last edited by Mutterscrawl; 01-18-2014 at 11:04 PM..
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  #699  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:00 PM
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Well sorry the Orcs are a race of overpowered dumbfucks but that's the lore.
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  #700  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:01 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Well sorry the Orcs are a race of overpowered dumbfucks but that's the lore.
It wasn't always. That is why we are upset.
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