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  #701  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:01 PM
EdWunclerIII EdWunclerIII is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
The orcs don't look brutish most of the time, they look stupid. Literally every orc looks like a peon.

If the Horde looked like it did in WC3 instead of looking stupid we wouldn't have needed the belfs hordeside.

Ideally I'm thinking Belfs would still have worked with the Horde but never been playable, a mirror to Helfs nonplayable alliance side.
No, they'd still be ugly green brutes. They really wouldn't have that many more players.
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  #702  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:04 PM
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It wasn't always. That is why we are upset.
Sorry to put it that way: Where the fuck did you guys saw the Orcs as something else!? Their behavior was always genocidal at worse and dickish at best.
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  #703  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:05 PM
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sorry to put it that way: Where the fuck did you guys saw the orcs as something else!? Their behavior was always genocidal at worse and dickish at best.
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  #704  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:07 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Sorry to put it that way: Where the fuck did you guys saw the Orcs as something else!? Their behavior was always genocidal at worse and dickish at best.
In Warcraft III where they were heroic(and LotC and OBaH.) Maybe I am just so sensitive that I feel sorry for orcs. That is always a possibility.
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  #705  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:12 PM
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You mean in their late "gimme or I slaughter you" phase?
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  #706  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:14 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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You mean in their late "gimme or I slaughter you" phase?
I mean what was the "gimme or I slaughter you phase" but should have been the "honorable savages are what they meant it to be, but what Blizz couldn't write it as cause they're asshats" phase.
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  #707  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:16 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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I mean what was the "gimme or I slaughter you phase" but should have been the "honorable savages are what they meant it to be, but what Blizz couldn't write it as cause they're asshats" phase.
That's still what happened. The arguments I make that way are always dismissed, so they aren't worth more when used from a Horde perspective.
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  #708  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:16 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I just felt that the idea of the orcs being corrupted by the legion and having their planet and culture destroyed was a good story. Trying to reclaim that culture was the dynamic of the entire Horde. The tauren were suppose to be their mentors because they were shamanistic as well. They accepted the forsaken because they were in a similar position as the orcs in Warcraft I-II.

They go to Outland to find the uncorrupted orcs. It just turns out there was no culture to reclaim. It was just the same horrible culture they have been trying to get away from and it brings the Horde to the brink again.
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  #709  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:21 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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That's still what happened. The arguments I make that way are always dismissed, so they aren't worth more when used from a Horde perspective.
What do you mean "That's still what happened"

This is the "What's wrong with the Horde's story" thread
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  #710  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:21 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Why are people so convinced that the orcs' behavior was forced or unnaturally inflicted upon them by the writers? that somehow they were "ruined" by funneling their preexisting priorities toward the logical conclusion?

Did orc fans want to become the Alliance? To cast all the stuff that made them distinctly orcish aside without pretense, and just decide "well, no more battle for us, it just wouldn't be right"?

From day one the orcs have been portrayed as highly warrior-centric, with their "lok'tar ogar", "blood and thunder" celebration of battle and combat. From day one they've been heavily defined by the ever-present glorification of death in battle as something to be sought. They've always venerated those who perish at the end of a spear, and forget those who die in their sleep. What sort of progression did people expect from that?

The problem with that sort of thinking is, when a culture believes that the best death is a death in battle, it inherently makes that culture predisposed to look for reasons to make people try to kill them. Even in (relative) peacetime, it had the orcs staring down everyone they met, daring the world to screw with them even when the world wasn't especially interested in starting anything. Because when you raise every child with stories that teach how the best thing they can do is defeat a worthy foe or die trying, those children will naturally seek out their own worthy foes. And if such foes don't want to fight, the orcs then feel obliged to look for ways to make them fight, even if it means their foe is fighting back against their aggressions.

It's a consistent part of the orcs' culturally encouraged mindset, and always has been. To be blunt, what's happened to the orcs in MoP is the only thing that's made sense about them for a long time, because to date they'd previously never been given a cogent, believable justification for swallowing Thrall's peacetime ideals beyond an inelegant assumption that the orcs possessed a hivemind that made them automatically think just like their leader does.

Orc players' negative reaction is somewhat understandable, but that's because they're assuming they, as the player, represent the average orc. They don't. Personal RPing is just that; personal and not canonical. As far as the story's concerned, the player is a hero, and heroes by definition aren't the embodiment of societal groupthink. They're the exceptions, just as heroes in other stories are.

Nobody demands to know why there are still so many jerks and slimeballs inhabiting the fictional world in which Superman lives; just because he represents and champions certain ideals doesn't mean humanity is made to be uniformly in line with his thinking; on the contrary, most aren't - even those who appreciate his heroism aren't necessarily as altruistic as he. Some are, but a great many aren't.

Contrary to what many players seem to think, when most of the orcs fell in with Garrosh, it wasn't supposed to be a commentary on the Horde player. It was the opposite; the Horde player went through the process of coming to see the truth of what most of the orcs were supporting and rejecting it, then taking action to help eliminate the course of the problem so that they can have a chance of finally fixing themselves. The veteran orc player (as opposed to the newbie leveling up in Cataclysm) is supposed to be the best of what's orcish to our minds, but very few orcs are comprised of all those things. Not even Thrall necessarily is, as most of his deepest flaws are things that the player (orc or otherwise) shows a remarkable ability for controlling and/or overcoming.

The occasional off-the-wall questline plays around with ethics and morality at times, but by-and-large the player when in the central narrative is a paragon of his/her race, even moreso than named NPC's with their often larger-than-life strengths and defining flaws. Varian didn't just have a temper; he inherited the divinely pissed-off temperament of a demigod. Thrall was shackled by his emotions prior to the Elemental Bonds questline (and if you ask me, he still is). Yet the player is consistently even-keeled in temperament and emotional stability. Wise and powerful Watchers and Aspects succumb to the whispered madness of an Old God nearby as its bodily fluids destroy the minds of countless mortals, yet players shrug it off unless the Old God itself is right there in the room with them. Horde, Alliance, and even Shado-pan warriors run amok under the influence of the Sha, while players hammer their emotions into submission and save the day.

As avatars of the player sensibilities, the player-character sets the bar, and it's easy to think that our idealized impression of our chosen player-race is the norm, but a lot of the time - even most of the time - our own races don't measure up, and that's to be expected. Now with WoD, we may see the chance for the orc players (and their non-orc Horde friends) to fix what's been broken with the rest of the orcs since even before WC3 by seeing the folly of Garrosh's ways from the outside.

And they were broken. Even in WC3 their "noble savage" angle ultimately lacked much nobility when one considers that they still constantly longed for the chance to kill people - to "prove themselves in battle" and all that noise. The fact that they preferred fighting and killing people who could effectively fight back doesn't change that they still eagerly sought battle wherever they could find it, which by necessity means that on some level, they consciously hauled around a constant self-justification for antagonizing others just for the chance at getting to kill or be killed in battle.

Did you die well in service to the Scourge, furthering the goals of the Master? Then you get to come back a mighty champion of the Scourge, while others who died in failure are raised as mindless drudges to fill the ever-swelling ranks of disposable undead.

Did you die well in service to the Horde, at the hands of a mighty enemy? Then you get to live on in celebrated memory, immortalized by your glory, while those who simply died are left nameless and forgotten.

That's a cultural sickness right there, and not a new one either. As embodied by Broxigar, the orcs have always thought that way, to the point of feeling guilty and worthless if they didn't die choking on their own blood with their hands around an enemy's throat. Judging your self-worth by the strength of those you've killed or by whom you're killed is a dangerous and ignorant devaluation of life, and consequently, in its own way the orcish culture has long risked becoming as much a culture of death as the Cult of the Damned, where the circumstances of one's death determined the value of the individual far more heavily than the manner in which they lived.

It's why we see the humans of the Alliance mourning the deaths of all who fell in Northrend, while Thrall is the only orc shown expressing any such sentiment for the Horde. It's extremely telling to have Garrosh resent that the victory in Northrend had to be shared with the Alliance, and know that it's entirely believable that plenty of other orcs would feel the same way. They don't look at that war and see a horrifying calamity that cost countless lives and shouldn't have had to happen. They look at it and think "wow, we should totally do another one of those! And this time without any backseat-driving human factions to steal our glory and make us mind whose necks we chop."

The Frostwolves are the uncorrupted orcs. Not Azeroth's Frostwolves, but the Draenor ones of WoD. They've apparently already rejected the Iron Horde, and it seems rather relevant that they do so in tandem with Garrosh's interference negating the spirit shenanigans of Ner'zhul. all of Durotan's misgivings were, in the original Horde, overcome by the simple fact that the ancestors had apparently said to do the things the Horde did. Without that "blessing", we've got Frostwolves who, from we're told, have staunchly refused the Iron Horde to the point of being exiled for it.

They're the potential, the uncorrupted orcs Thrall hoped to find in Outland (and failed), because they're representative of the best things we've seen in orcs - even hinted at by Drek'thar's words in Cataclysm Hillsbrad - only without the "cheat code" of swallowing the warmongering and vicious militarism because the spirits had seemingly endorsed it.

Meeting them and seeing their motivations may just be what can potentially "fix" the orcs back on Azeroth, and fix Thrall's ignorance concerning his own people.

Last edited by ARM3481; 01-18-2014 at 11:35 PM..
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  #711  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:22 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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The Horde is bad Trickster. We aren't trying to dispute that. We just don't want to be bad.
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  #712  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
What do you mean "That's still what happened"

This is the "What's wrong with the Horde's story" thread
That's still what happened in the sense that I am right if we consider the current game.

And to be fair, it didn't seem like you were arguing from the what's wrong perspective. Feels like a copt-out.

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The Horde is bad Trickster.
I am sigging that, Paj.
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  #713  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:24 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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That's still what happened in the sense that I am right if we consider the current game.

And to be fair, it didn't seem like you were arguing from the what's wrong perspective. Feels like a copt-out.
What on gods green earth do you think I'm trying to say then?
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  #714  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:25 PM
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What on gods green earth do you think I'm trying to say then?
I tought you were arguing me the Orcs aren't that bad.
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  #715  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:30 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I am sigging that, Paj.
You didn't even see me when I defended the Horde. I have never defended them recently. I do not want to argue about that anymore so if anyone tries to I will just surrender immediately. You Alliance people are right. The Horde is bad. It doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.
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  #716  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:31 PM
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You didn't even see me when I defended the Horde. I have never defended them recently. I do not want to argue about that anymore so if anyone tries to I will just surrender immediately. You Alliance people are right. The Horde is bad. It doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.
Then leave it. Join the Alliance.
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  #717  
Old 01-18-2014, 11:31 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I tought you were arguing me the Orcs aren't that bad.
How the hell can I argue that in the current storyline?

Thrall was an idiot in his address to Terenas, and then the Orcs went from post WW2 japan to WW1 Germany to WW2 Germany.

What I AM saying is that's bullshit and terrible storytelling.

Also as an aside that if the Horde looked as cool as it was supposed to in Vanilla, along with than most of Kalimdor being something other than boring ass desert, it'd have gotten more players regardless of aesthetics.
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  #718  
Old 01-19-2014, 12:51 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Then leave it. Join the Alliance.
I already have a human paladin. I just don't like the PvP aspect of this game. I don't have any motivation to fight the Alliance at all. Varian even tried to save the blood elves from Garrosh. The leader of the Alliance holds no ill will towards my favorite race. I just want the orcs to start going down a better path than what we have had recently.

I am sorry everyone that I am sensitive towards orcs!

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  #719  
Old 01-19-2014, 01:48 AM
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I think the Orcs and Trolls should be utterly decimated after their civil war, with the Tauren trying to help. Then the Blood Elves should finally achieve a higher position in the Horde by helping them out and negociating with the Alliance to spare the survivors. And of course, Sylvanas' head is chopped because there is no progress in the Horde story while she still live.

Yep, that's what should have happened.

Think about it, what always caused problems between the Horde and Alliance was the fact that the Orcs and basically every Alliance race besides Night Elves had a different mentality. With the Blood Elves who are former members of the Alliance in charge, that problem would be much less present.
I think the Horde civil war should never have happened since it was an ass-pull from start to finish in order to facilitate a pointless faction war.

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The Orcs stopped being misunderstood savages the moment they decided to kill their blue neighbors on Draenor. There's nothing tragic about them at all. The only tragic thing in Orcish history is the other race's victims they caused.
No one - and I do mean NO ONE - gave a single shit about the draenei, even we knew that the orcs were responsible for their genocide - until Blizzard turned them into blue-skinned Mary Sue members of the Alliance.

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Why are people so convinced that the orcs' behavior was forced or unnaturally inflicted upon them by the writers? that somehow they were "ruined" by funneling their preexisting priorities toward the logical conclusion?
I'm sorry, ARM, but we were told almost explicitly that the Horde was made the badguys strictly to "put the 'war' back in 'Wacraft.'" The rest of your explanation is simply trying to sugarcoat licking Blizzard's asshole of an excuse for poor writing.

Last edited by Genesis; 01-19-2014 at 02:34 AM..
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  #720  
Old 01-19-2014, 03:04 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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I'm sorry, ARM, but we were told almost explicitly that the Horde was made the badguys strictly to "put the 'war' back in 'Wacraft.'" The rest of your explanation is simply trying to sugarcoat licking Blizzard's asshole of an excuse for poor writing.
Wrong. You, and others believed that the orcs had changed in WCIII. Me, and others, never felt that way. ARM, in is excellent post, is explaining perfectly why your idea that the rocs had become "good" at one point is a fallacy. The fact that they were used to bring back "War in Warcraft" makes sense, no matter how hated this fact is; in fact, it should be said that the Forsaken where primarily used to do so (with the Wrathgate and all which followed, and even Cataclysm when the threat in the Eastern Kingdom was them).

However, since for Blizzard, it is still "Orcs and Humans and somehow others who are here but could be elsewhere because they don't matter", it is logical that the Orcs were used in MoP : they are the center-piece of the Horde, it is they which shapes the Horde's culture, mindset and even "diplomatic" behaviour. Of course, other races were more than willing to fight along them (the Taurens and Trolls, in the Shattering, Wolfheart and Tide of War, were more than willing to kill some Alliance scoundrels; it is only with MoP itself that they suddenly became those people who always opposed Garrosh).

That's why the Orcs were used as foes : to break the orcs, body and souls, is to break the Horde. Sadly, Blizzard hadn't the guts to push the story to his logical conclusion (in any realistic world, dismantling the Horde, as in "You people will now dissolve the Horde, make treaties with the Alliance, and then we will help you, but you will be under heavy scrutiny during a certain period of time" should have occurred at the end of the so called Siege). That's why I would have preferred if Garrosh had built a fortress on Pandaria itself and that the factions fought him there : most of the actual problems wouldn't have existed.

WoD is the final nail in the coffin of Orc's overblown pride and corrupted culture. They won't have any cop-out, this time, no "The Legion tricked us" or "Garrosh was a meanie"; they'll have to face their ancient heroes, the ones they honoured by christening their cities and lands with their names, charge at them just as they charged at the world. This time, they won't be able to pretend that they were once a "peaceful" race and that it was bad apples who made them fall from grace.

If WoD is well done, it will be the first time than the Horde will truly have to consider what they had done, not only to Draenor, but also to Azeroth, without having the possibility to pretend that their participations in Hyjal, Northrend and Cataclysm somehow absolve them of their crimes. If it isn't well done, though...
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Old 01-19-2014, 03:57 AM
Lutinz Lutinz is offline

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I think the problem is less what the lore says the orcs and the Horde are and more over what Horde players were 'sold' when they chose their faction. The big difference is that those who know the lore in detail are a minority so the image that blizz sells the players creates what they expect out of their faction.

What the horde and the orcs ended up being was something very different to what was on the brochure and to a great extent what blizz still tries to sell the horde to the players as.

This is where the dissatisfaction forms because you have players who have become invested in a faction that doesn't seem to be the faction they thought it was. Blizz realises this and in the end is caught in a situation where they try to reassure upset horde player that the faction they are playing is infact the faction they thought they were playing while continuing a plot which seems to contradict it.

This is why Blizz is walking a fine line here and cant take things like the SoO to their 'logic' conclusions. People will leave the game if they do and in many cases will stop playing Blizzard games altogether. Its financially unworkable. If they had sold the game and the factions as something different from the beginning it might have been different but they didn't. Its too late for that now and so we have this current situation.
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Old 01-19-2014, 06:46 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Why are people so convinced that the orcs' behavior was forced or unnaturally inflicted upon them by the writers? that somehow they were "ruined" by funneling their preexisting priorities toward the logical conclusion?
Because it wasn't an extension of their preexisting priorities. I'm not going to say that the horde was exactly clean, but the idea that "there were dark aspects remaining in their culture that needed to be dealt with" does not equal "so all evil stuff is justified from a story standpoint".

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Did orc fans want to become the Alliance? To cast all the stuff that made them distinctly orcish aside without pretense, and just decide "well, no more battle for us, it just wouldn't be right"?
Nope, which is why there's been a giant arena and large, hostile populations of creeps in the orcish homeland.

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From day one the orcs have been portrayed as highly warrior-centric, with their "lok'tar ogar", "blood and thunder" celebration of battle and combat. From day one they've been heavily defined by the ever-present glorification of death in battle as something to be sought. They've always venerated those who perish at the end of a spear, and forget those who die in their sleep. What sort of progression did people expect from that?
Actual extension of those aspects of their culture. What you would be saying would make sense if any of those motivations was ever suggested to be involved with the war. None of the conflicts since warcraft II can find their origin in this.

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The problem with that sort of thinking is, when a culture believes that the best death is a death in battle, it inherently makes that culture predisposed to look for reasons to make people try to kill them. Even in (relative) peacetime, it had the orcs staring down everyone they met, daring the world to screw with them even when the world wasn't especially interested in starting anything.
When the hell did that happen? I assume you're referring to the aftermath of Mount Hyjal, and there really wasn't any sign of the orcs provoking people there. Both conflicts with the alliance from that era were spurred by actions from the alliance (Daelin's invasion and the Northwatch treaty violation respectively), and there really wasn't much of a "staring down" with the aggressive creeps of their homelands.

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Because when you raise every child with stories that teach how the best thing they can do is defeat a worthy foe or die trying, those children will naturally seek out their own worthy foes. And if such foes don't want to fight, the orcs then feel obliged to look for ways to make them fight, even if it means their foe is fighting back against their aggressions.
So, because children were taught to seek worthy foes, the natural logical progression is that those children should grow up to want to destroy the lands around them to fuel their war machine, regard any potential foe as hated and unworthy and fight alongside the honorless?

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It's a consistent part of the orcs' culturally encouraged mindset, and always has been. To be blunt, what's happened to the orcs in MoP is the only thing that's made sense about them for a long time, because to date they'd previously never been given a cogent, believable justification for swallowing Thrall's peacetime ideals beyond an inelegant assumption that the orcs possessed a hivemind that made them automatically think just like their leader does.
Honestly, I would agree with you when it's just about MoP. Between Malkorok and Nazgrim, you have two aspects of orcish warrior culture that could lead to these conflicts. The orcs as portrayed in MoP make sense as a result of a downfall into villainy, with the average orc maintaining some sort of personal honor even as their leader did not. That's something that made sense.

But the actual downfall of the orcs, as seen in Wrath of the Lich King and Cataclysm, did not. It's the exact same 'hivemind' situation you describe there, where every single orc suddenly starts slavishly following an unproven warrior solely because of his... honestly, it's never clarified. We can assume it was either because of ancestry, or being a mag'har, but I don't think we've ever really established where the garrosh cult started.

Anyway, point I was making. The downfall of the orcs, as seen in WotLK and Cata, had nothing to do with what you suggested it's all about. Instead, the orcs all randomly started supporting Garrosh Hellscream. Your claim of "seeking honorable combat causing downfall" is entirely rejected by the reality of the game, where it was caused by "the vast majority of the orcs clamoring for garrosh to be warchief, despite him never proving himself in battle until much, much later".

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As avatars of the player sensibilities, the player-character sets the bar, and it's easy to think that our idealized impression of our chosen player-race is the norm, but a lot of the time - even most of the time - our own races don't measure up, and that's to be expected. Now with WoD, we may see the chance for the orc players (and their non-orc Horde friends) to fix what's been broken with the rest of the orcs since even before WC3 by seeing the folly of Garrosh's ways from the outside.
Honestly, it's a reason I'm looking forward to WoD. I agree that there were legitimate dark aspects that needed to be dealt with in orc culture. I just don't agree that the extreme vilification of the orcs can be traced back to those specific dark aspects.

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And they were broken. Even in WC3 their "noble savage" angle ultimately lacked much nobility when one considers that they still constantly longed for the chance to kill people - to "prove themselves in battle" and all that noise. The fact that they preferred fighting and killing people who could effectively fight back doesn't change that they still eagerly sought battle wherever they could find it, which by necessity means that on some level, they consciously hauled around a constant self-justification for antagonizing others just for the chance at getting to kill or be killed in battle.
Seriously, when did that happen in warcraft III? Did I miss a mission? The only time I can think of is the stonetalon stuff, which seemed to be caused by the growing proximity of the demons.

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Did you die well in service to the Scourge, furthering the goals of the Master? Then you get to come back a mighty champion of the Scourge, while others who died in failure are raised as mindless drudges to fill the ever-swelling ranks of disposable undead.

Did you die well in service to the Horde, at the hands of a mighty enemy? Then you get to live on in celebrated memory, immortalized by your glory, while those who simply died are left nameless and forgotten.

That's a cultural sickness right there, and not a new one either. As embodied by Broxigar, the orcs have always thought that way, to the point of feeling guilty and worthless if they didn't die choking on their own blood with their hands around an enemy's throat. Judging your self-worth by the strength of those you've killed or by whom you're killed is a dangerous and ignorant devaluation of life, and consequently, in its own way the orcish culture has long risked becoming as much a culture of death as the Cult of the Damned, where the circumstances of one's death determined the value of the individual far more heavily than the manner in which they lived.
I don't buy this analysis, because it's pretty much entirely what we do in real life. Hannibal, Ramses II, Caesar, Genghis Khan, these are names all of us would recognize. And yet, how many of you can tell me of their deeds outside of battle? Of how those people actually lived? All most of us learn about most famous historical figures is "Who did they lead into killing who", "how did they do that" and "how did they commemorate this".

Even the historical figures who we know for other things are known pretty much entirely for their conflict. Gallileo for his conflict with the church, Columbus for his conflict with people telling him it just couldn't be done, Gandhi for his conflict with the english. Even if we have to make up outright lies for our history books to make the conflict a bit spicier.

Let's face it, most of our knowledge of the past is about spiced up conflicts. It feels silly to point to another species doing the exact same and declaring "that's why they're bad".

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The Frostwolves are the uncorrupted orcs. Not Azeroth's Frostwolves, but the Draenor ones of WoD. They've apparently already rejected the Iron Horde, and it seems rather relevant that they do so in tandem with Garrosh's interference negating the spirit shenanigans of Ner'zhul. all of Durotan's misgivings were, in the original Horde, overcome by the simple fact that the ancestors had apparently said to do the things the Horde did. Without that "blessing", we've got Frostwolves who, from we're told, have staunchly refused the Iron Horde to the point of being exiled for it.

They're the potential, the uncorrupted orcs Thrall hoped to find in Outland (and failed), because they're representative of the best things we've seen in orcs - even hinted at by Drek'thar's words in Cataclysm Hillsbrad - only without the "cheat code" of swallowing the warmongering and vicious militarism because the spirits had seemingly endorsed it.
There, I agree with you. As I said, there are aspects of the conflict with the horde that I liked. MoP had a ton of good stuff, "the shattering" had good stuff, some of the short stories had good stuff. Seeing those things addressed would be a good thing.

It's the times when the villainy of the orcs didn't actually fit those aspects that I have issue with, and there were a lot of those times, to the point where they overshadowed the overall war.

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Meeting them and seeing their motivations may just be what can potentially "fix" the orcs back on Azeroth, and fix Thrall's ignorance concerning his own people.
An ignorance that was only forced in later. Between Grom's revelation, his narration in Rise of the Horde and his standard dialogue from vanilla, it was quite obvious he already knew this before TBC rolled around.

More importantly, making this entire thing about Thrall being ignorant would address none of the issues you yourself brought up. By your own arguments, the orc who should be taught this stuff would need to be the average orc, not the leader.



In addition, I only see you talk about the orcs of Durotar. What about the tauren, the trolls and the blood elves? Where was the influence of their populaces in this entire thing?
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Old 01-19-2014, 07:47 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Wrong. You, and others believed that the orcs had changed in WCIII. Me, and others, never felt that way. ARM, in is excellent post, is explaining perfectly why your idea that the rocs had become "good" at one point is a fallacy. The fact that they were used to bring back "War in Warcraft" makes sense, no matter how hated this fact is; in fact, it should be said that the Forsaken where primarily used to do so (with the Wrathgate and all which followed, and even Cataclysm when the threat in the Eastern Kingdom was them).

However, since for Blizzard, it is still "Orcs and Humans and somehow others who are here but could be elsewhere because they don't matter", it is logical that the Orcs were used in MoP : they are the center-piece of the Horde, it is they which shapes the Horde's culture, mindset and even "diplomatic" behaviour. Of course, other races were more than willing to fight along them (the Taurens and Trolls, in the Shattering, Wolfheart and Tide of War, were more than willing to kill some Alliance scoundrels; it is only with MoP itself that they suddenly became those people who always opposed Garrosh).

That's why the Orcs were used as foes : to break the orcs, body and souls, is to break the Horde. Sadly, Blizzard hadn't the guts to push the story to his logical conclusion (in any realistic world, dismantling the Horde, as in "You people will now dissolve the Horde, make treaties with the Alliance, and then we will help you, but you will be under heavy scrutiny during a certain period of time" should have occurred at the end of the so called Siege). That's why I would have preferred if Garrosh had built a fortress on Pandaria itself and that the factions fought him there : most of the actual problems wouldn't have existed.

WoD is the final nail in the coffin of Orc's overblown pride and corrupted culture. They won't have any cop-out, this time, no "The Legion tricked us" or "Garrosh was a meanie"; they'll have to face their ancient heroes, the ones they honoured by christening their cities and lands with their names, charge at them just as they charged at the world. This time, they won't be able to pretend that they were once a "peaceful" race and that it was bad apples who made them fall from grace.

If WoD is well done, it will be the first time than the Horde will truly have to consider what they had done, not only to Draenor, but also to Azeroth, without having the possibility to pretend that their participations in Hyjal, Northrend and Cataclysm somehow absolve them of their crimes. If it isn't well done, though...

I don't think anyone's arguing that the orcs 'became good' but they were on that road.

The fact that Thrall's an ignorant jackass is ludicrous since he grabbed people like Drek and Eitrigg for EXPLICITLY THIS PURPOSE, to keep him informed about the old ways.

The idea that somehow, in a single generation, these guys don't remember what things were like, is ludicrous.
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Old 01-19-2014, 08:51 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Orcs are Vegeta. They're battlelusting dicks, but sympathetic ones. Wanting to fight bigger and badder enemies isn't wrong if they know how to control it and use it for good. The faction war wasn't needed to show this, but they weren't as villain batted as people say. They just needed some counter-culture to show some with Thrall's ideals, or sympathetic/honorable orcs fighting the alliance.
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Old 01-19-2014, 08:56 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Orcs are Vegeta. They're battlelusting dicks, but sympathetic ones. Wanting to fight bigger and badder enemies isn't wrong if they know how to control it and use it for good. The faction war wasn't needed to show this, but they weren't as villain batted as people say. They just needed some counter-culture to show some with Thrall's ideals, or sympathetic/honorable orcs fighting the alliance.
Thing is that's kind of the lesson they were learning in WC3 and Vanilla and TBC.

We literally got all the Mag'har youths and spoke to none of their elders though.

It's idiotic.
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