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  #726  
Old 01-19-2014, 09:45 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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They are nothing like Vegeta. At least he had a personality.
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  #727  
Old 01-19-2014, 10:26 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
When the hell did that happen? I assume you're referring to the aftermath of Mount Hyjal, and there really wasn't any sign of the orcs provoking people there. Both conflicts with the alliance from that era were spurred by actions from the alliance (Daelin's invasion and the Northwatch treaty violation respectively), and there really wasn't much of a "staring down" with the aggressive creeps of their homelands.
Ashenvale, bro. Night elves had nothing to do with human actions.
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

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Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #728  
Old 01-19-2014, 10:31 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
Ashenvale, bro. Night elves had nothing to do with human actions.
Aah, I thought he was referring to the warcraft III era stuff, not ze 'nilla.
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  #729  
Old 01-19-2014, 10:36 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Aah, I thought he was referring to the warcraft III era stuff, not ze 'nilla.
Even in WC3, you have stuff like Grom fucking up Thrall's attempt at stealth, and the orcs moaning about how boring centaur and quillboar and harpies have become.
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #730  
Old 01-19-2014, 10:40 AM
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Wrong. You, and others believed that the orcs had changed in WCIII. Me, and others, never felt that way. ARM, in is excellent post, is explaining perfectly why your idea that the rocs had become "good" at one point is a fallacy. The fact that they were used to bring back "War in Warcraft" makes sense, no matter how hated this fact is; in fact, it should be said that the Forsaken where primarily used to do so (with the Wrathgate and all which followed, and even Cataclysm when the threat in the Eastern Kingdom was them).
I love how you are so hellbent on rebuking me that you have even fabricated an argument for me out of thin air.
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  #731  
Old 01-19-2014, 10:43 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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I love how you are so hellbent on rebuking me that you have even fabricated an argument for me out of thin air.
You must be new here.
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  #732  
Old 01-19-2014, 10:52 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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They are nothing like Vegeta. At least he had a personality.
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  #733  
Old 01-19-2014, 10:52 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
Even in WC3, you have stuff like Grom fucking up Thrall's attempt at stealth, and the orcs moaning about how boring centaur and quillboar and harpies have become.
I actually thought of the former, but it seemed to be caused at least partially by the demonblood becoming more riling due to the proximity of demons.



The latter is a good point though, and I didn't think of that. To be fair, having played the founding of durotar, I kinda have to agree with them. Then again, the orcs don't really seem to treat the members of the alliance as "worthy foes" either in the post-Warcraft III era.
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  #734  
Old 01-19-2014, 10:54 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
The latter is a good point though, and I didn't think of that. To be fair, having played the founding of durotar, I kinda have to agree with them. Then again, the orcs don't really seem to treat the members of the alliance as "worthy foes" either in the post-Warcraft III era.
It's probably because the orcs soon grow bored with everyone they try to fight. Hopefully they'll be bored with the night elves after Garrosh's defeat, in the sour grapes way.
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #735  
Old 01-19-2014, 10:55 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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To this day, I don't know what that man did to make them act like that.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #736  
Old 01-19-2014, 10:55 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
It's probably because the orcs soon grow bored with everyone they try to fight. Hopefully they'll be bored with the night elves after Garrosh's defeat, in the sour grapes way.
I have the solution!

Forsaken are moved to Barrens, dedicate their unlives to stitching together dead quilboar in new and exciting ways for the orcs to fight.
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  #737  
Old 01-19-2014, 10:59 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
To this day, I don't know what that man did to make them act like that.
Nor I, but glorious "BURN!" gif is glorious.
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  #738  
Old 01-19-2014, 11:05 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
I have the solution!

Forsaken are moved to Barrens, dedicate their unlives to stitching together dead quilboar in new and exciting ways for the orcs to fight.
Better idea: give the Burning Legion a permanent foothold in the Barrens and the Horde is in charge of holding them back. Alliance supplies money and tech and magic and lives in peace.

I call it the Kryptman Doctrine. What could go wrong?
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #739  
Old 01-19-2014, 06:04 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
Even in WC3, you have stuff like Grom fucking up Thrall's attempt at stealth, and the orcs moaning about how boring centaur and quillboar and harpies have become.
Yes, but that was implied to be due to their Demonic Bloodlust, which they hadn't yet been freed from.
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  #740  
Old 01-19-2014, 06:21 PM
Odok Odok is offline

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Orcs are Klingons. They're... they're just Klingons.

They're such Klingons that I don't know why Blizzard doesn't just steal all the good tropes and storylines from Star Trek at this poin-

*Orcs were originally superficial villains of the franchise but were later given depth and endearing cultural traits*

*Worf is Thrall*

*Honor code*

*Klingon Civil War*

Nevermind.
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  #741  
Old 01-19-2014, 10:20 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
They are nothing like Vegeta. At least he had a personality.
Vegeta didn't have a personality, he was a device to make the protagonist look better.

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Originally Posted by EdWunclerIII View Post
No, they'd still be ugly green brutes. They really wouldn't have that many more players.
Actually, characters such as the Blademaster and Grom hellscream(Before Garrosh) were extremely popular in Warcraft III.

If Vanilla Kalimdor wasn't a mess and Orcs stood straight, there'd certainly be more orc players.

Last edited by JorgeAxe; 01-19-2014 at 10:23 PM..
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  #742  
Old 01-20-2014, 03:44 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Why are people so convinced that the orcs' behavior was forced or unnaturally inflicted upon them by the writers? that somehow they were "ruined" by funneling their preexisting priorities toward the logical conclusion?

Did orc fans want to become the Alliance? To cast all the stuff that made them distinctly orcish aside without pretense, and just decide "well, no more battle for us, it just wouldn't be right"?

From day one the orcs have been portrayed as highly warrior-centric, with their "lok'tar ogar", "blood and thunder" celebration of battle and combat. From day one they've been heavily defined by the ever-present glorification of death in battle as something to be sought. They've always venerated those who perish at the end of a spear, and forget those who die in their sleep. What sort of progression did people expect from that?

The problem with that sort of thinking is, when a culture believes that the best death is a death in battle, it inherently makes that culture predisposed to look for reasons to make people try to kill them. Even in (relative) peacetime, it had the orcs staring down everyone they met, daring the world to screw with them even when the world wasn't especially interested in starting anything. Because when you raise every child with stories that teach how the best thing they can do is defeat a worthy foe or die trying, those children will naturally seek out their own worthy foes. And if such foes don't want to fight, the orcs then feel obliged to look for ways to make them fight, even if it means their foe is fighting back against their aggressions.

It's a consistent part of the orcs' culturally encouraged mindset, and always has been. To be blunt, what's happened to the orcs in MoP is the only thing that's made sense about them for a long time, because to date they'd previously never been given a cogent, believable justification for swallowing Thrall's peacetime ideals beyond an inelegant assumption that the orcs possessed a hivemind that made them automatically think just like their leader does.

Orc players' negative reaction is somewhat understandable, but that's because they're assuming they, as the player, represent the average orc. They don't. Personal RPing is just that; personal and not canonical. As far as the story's concerned, the player is a hero, and heroes by definition aren't the embodiment of societal groupthink. They're the exceptions, just as heroes in other stories are.

Nobody demands to know why there are still so many jerks and slimeballs inhabiting the fictional world in which Superman lives; just because he represents and champions certain ideals doesn't mean humanity is made to be uniformly in line with his thinking; on the contrary, most aren't - even those who appreciate his heroism aren't necessarily as altruistic as he. Some are, but a great many aren't.

Contrary to what many players seem to think, when most of the orcs fell in with Garrosh, it wasn't supposed to be a commentary on the Horde player. It was the opposite; the Horde player went through the process of coming to see the truth of what most of the orcs were supporting and rejecting it, then taking action to help eliminate the course of the problem so that they can have a chance of finally fixing themselves. The veteran orc player (as opposed to the newbie leveling up in Cataclysm) is supposed to be the best of what's orcish to our minds, but very few orcs are comprised of all those things. Not even Thrall necessarily is, as most of his deepest flaws are things that the player (orc or otherwise) shows a remarkable ability for controlling and/or overcoming.

The occasional off-the-wall questline plays around with ethics and morality at times, but by-and-large the player when in the central narrative is a paragon of his/her race, even moreso than named NPC's with their often larger-than-life strengths and defining flaws. Varian didn't just have a temper; he inherited the divinely pissed-off temperament of a demigod. Thrall was shackled by his emotions prior to the Elemental Bonds questline (and if you ask me, he still is). Yet the player is consistently even-keeled in temperament and emotional stability. Wise and powerful Watchers and Aspects succumb to the whispered madness of an Old God nearby as its bodily fluids destroy the minds of countless mortals, yet players shrug it off unless the Old God itself is right there in the room with them. Horde, Alliance, and even Shado-pan warriors run amok under the influence of the Sha, while players hammer their emotions into submission and save the day.

As avatars of the player sensibilities, the player-character sets the bar, and it's easy to think that our idealized impression of our chosen player-race is the norm, but a lot of the time - even most of the time - our own races don't measure up, and that's to be expected. Now with WoD, we may see the chance for the orc players (and their non-orc Horde friends) to fix what's been broken with the rest of the orcs since even before WC3 by seeing the folly of Garrosh's ways from the outside.

And they were broken. Even in WC3 their "noble savage" angle ultimately lacked much nobility when one considers that they still constantly longed for the chance to kill people - to "prove themselves in battle" and all that noise. The fact that they preferred fighting and killing people who could effectively fight back doesn't change that they still eagerly sought battle wherever they could find it, which by necessity means that on some level, they consciously hauled around a constant self-justification for antagonizing others just for the chance at getting to kill or be killed in battle.

Did you die well in service to the Scourge, furthering the goals of the Master? Then you get to come back a mighty champion of the Scourge, while others who died in failure are raised as mindless drudges to fill the ever-swelling ranks of disposable undead.

Did you die well in service to the Horde, at the hands of a mighty enemy? Then you get to live on in celebrated memory, immortalized by your glory, while those who simply died are left nameless and forgotten.

That's a cultural sickness right there, and not a new one either. As embodied by Broxigar, the orcs have always thought that way, to the point of feeling guilty and worthless if they didn't die choking on their own blood with their hands around an enemy's throat. Judging your self-worth by the strength of those you've killed or by whom you're killed is a dangerous and ignorant devaluation of life, and consequently, in its own way the orcish culture has long risked becoming as much a culture of death as the Cult of the Damned, where the circumstances of one's death determined the value of the individual far more heavily than the manner in which they lived.

It's why we see the humans of the Alliance mourning the deaths of all who fell in Northrend, while Thrall is the only orc shown expressing any such sentiment for the Horde. It's extremely telling to have Garrosh resent that the victory in Northrend had to be shared with the Alliance, and know that it's entirely believable that plenty of other orcs would feel the same way. They don't look at that war and see a horrifying calamity that cost countless lives and shouldn't have had to happen. They look at it and think "wow, we should totally do another one of those! And this time without any backseat-driving human factions to steal our glory and make us mind whose necks we chop."

The Frostwolves are the uncorrupted orcs. Not Azeroth's Frostwolves, but the Draenor ones of WoD. They've apparently already rejected the Iron Horde, and it seems rather relevant that they do so in tandem with Garrosh's interference negating the spirit shenanigans of Ner'zhul. all of Durotan's misgivings were, in the original Horde, overcome by the simple fact that the ancestors had apparently said to do the things the Horde did. Without that "blessing", we've got Frostwolves who, from we're told, have staunchly refused the Iron Horde to the point of being exiled for it.

They're the potential, the uncorrupted orcs Thrall hoped to find in Outland (and failed), because they're representative of the best things we've seen in orcs - even hinted at by Drek'thar's words in Cataclysm Hillsbrad - only without the "cheat code" of swallowing the warmongering and vicious militarism because the spirits had seemingly endorsed it.

Meeting them and seeing their motivations may just be what can potentially "fix" the orcs back on Azeroth, and fix Thrall's ignorance concerning his own people.
ARM, you once again prove why many of us consider you the most insightful and valueable poster on this forum.
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  #743  
Old 01-20-2014, 04:20 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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ARM is one of those rare posters who make you think "Yep, great poster, but he can't top <X post>!"

He then makes a post like that one and you just have to go "Well....shit, he did it!"

Truly, this forum is a better place for having him.
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  #744  
Old 01-20-2014, 09:08 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
The latter is a good point though, and I didn't think of that. To be fair, having played the founding of durotar, I kinda have to agree with them. Then again, the orcs don't really seem to treat the members of the alliance as "worthy foes" either in the post-Warcraft III era.
::knock knock::

Alliance?
Do you wanna fight a war now?
Come on, go grab your sword!
We already conquered Stormwind Keep
It'd be really neat to kill you for the Horde!

We used to have a demon curse,
But with our warlocks purged, finally we are free!
So do you wanna fight a war now?
(Crack your skull and take your stuff now!)

Go away, Horde.

Ugh, meanie.


~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~

::knock knock::

Do you wanna fight a war now?
We miss Mt. Hyjal, that's a fact
Thanks for helping capture Grom unharmed!
We're demon-free and strong!
I'm wearing Daelin's hat!


(Thanks a bunch, Jaina!)

Let's battle over Ashenvale
We'll call it "cold war"
Maybe kill you and take your stuff!

Chop chop, chop chop, chop chop, chop chop . . .


~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Alliance?
Please. We know you're angry.
Garrosh was teeny bit extreme.
But we're not really like him now,
Please be our friends somehow,
Don't think we're mean.

We only have each other
'Til the Legion returns, then
We'll get to squish demons again!
*half laugh* Do you wanna fight a war now?

*sniff*

Maybe let us kill the space cows...
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  #745  
Old 01-20-2014, 09:15 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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::knock knock::
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  #746  
Old 01-20-2014, 09:18 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
::knock knock::

Alliance?
Do you wanna fight a war now?
Come on, go grab your sword!
We already conquered Stormwind Keep
It'd be really neat to kill you for the Horde!

We used to have a demon curse,
But with our warlocks purged, finally we are free!
So do you wanna fight a war now?
(Crack your skull and take your stuff now!)

Go away, Horde.

Ugh, meanie.


~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~

::knock knock::

Do you wanna fight a war now?
We miss Mt. Hyjal, that's a fact
Thanks for helping capture Grom unharmed!
We're demon-free and strong!
I'm wearing Daelin's hat!


(Thanks a bunch, Jaina!)

Let's battle over Ashenvale
We'll call it "cold war"
Maybe kill you and take your stuff!

Chop chop, chop chop, chop chop, chop chop . . .


~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Alliance?
Please. We know you're angry.
Garrosh was teeny bit extreme.
But we're not really like him now,
Please be our friends somehow,
Don't think we're mean.

We only have each other
'Til the Legion returns, then
We'll get to squish demons again!
*half laugh* Do you wanna fight a war now?

*sniff*

Maybe let us kill the space cows...
Orcs are like onions.
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  #747  
Old 01-20-2014, 10:26 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
Orcs are like onions.
They smell bad and make people cry?
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Originally Posted by kobebyarlant View Post
All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #748  
Old 01-20-2014, 10:27 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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They smell bad and make people cry?
Don't forget being delicious when well-prepared.

Actually, that one's canon as of bloodsworn. Taste better than tauren beef.
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  #749  
Old 01-20-2014, 10:39 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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So what I'm getting here is...

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The story portraying the orcs as stupid, gullible and evil is believable because the orcs are stupid, gullible and evil.
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  #750  
Old 01-20-2014, 10:44 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Why do you guys think so many of us have orcish sensitivities if they were always that way?
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