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  #151  
Old 04-10-2014, 10:00 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Originally Posted by Eagan View Post
I don't think it is so cut and dry. Encampments of 'worgen' outside Gilneas are very tiny minorities of the Gilnean population. The tiny camp in Duskwood, or the little camp in Felwood (which presumably also includes some Night Elven worgen, though that is not entirely clear). Surwich, a minute utopian community founded by a wayward druid. These are not the bulk of the Gilnean population.
Tiny minorites? Not so sure on that since we, even in Wolfheart, only saw very, very little of the Gilneans. We aren't even so sure how many of the population actually left and where they disappeared to. We only see those three worgen in SW, and when Hallow's End comes around, we see a lot more, so we can presume that a few disappeared into Stormwind but also in Darnassus and palces elsewhere. But then we also know that the night elves have declared that the worgen are official night elf citizens and Darnassus is their new capital.

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Presumably, a large amount of them are in Darnassus and Stormwind. There are also remnants in Gilneas itself, presumably (Fangs of the Father quest lines, though the whole 'abandoned' thing isn't clear either).
Presumably, correct. Although we only see them in SW around Hallow's End, so we can probably chalk it up to gameplay trumps story. UVG says its abandoned, so it's abandoned. The worgen from the FotF quest chain are presumed dead, due to the dragon's blood, or left for parts elsewhere.

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We know nothing of these, the bulk of Gilneans. We do not know anything about them, or their causes. We can hardly presume, from tiny little camps, that these are representative of the Gilneans as a nation.
I agree, but we work with what we got and what we got in game and in books paints a different picture. The big problem is in the books, the only Gilnean that we see get any screentime isn't focused on retaking Gilneas. So we get crumbs and are forced to have to come up with other reasons.

Like I said, we work with what we got and what we got says that only the GLF is interested in retaking Gilneas. Everyone else is too busy setting up new homes.

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I imagine that the average Gilnean citizen would want to return home. However, this plays into the points that Genesis was making. We know nothing of their exile. We know nothing of their struggle to integrate into either Stormwindic or Darnassian society. We know nothing of how their class structure has held up, or how the pure and cursed interact.
Probably, but the average Gilnean citizen is either represented by the few Gilenan settlements, or fanon. That's a problem. We do know a bit about their integration into Darnassian society. They were made Darnassus citizens, and we see femworgen being trained as Sentinels and reporting directly to Shandris Feathermoon. We see mining and engineer trainers as well. We also know that the worgen have set up some sort of spy network in Kalimdor, so presumbly the night elves have had a hand in that.

As for Stormwind society, we know, based upon what little we have, that the average Stormwind citizen is very wary about them. Varian had to reassure his people that the Horde are the true monsters, not the Gilneans in ToW.

We also see human Gilneans working alongside worgen Gilneans in STM, and presumebly Surwich as well, and with the recent relevations about the worgen curse and reproduction, we can presume that being a worgen is no longer something that Gilneans have issues with. It's just a "temporary" condition.

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It does make sense for this story of exile, this story of the 'exodus', to follow the story of 'genesis' which was the origination in Gilneas. I do not think that they can return to Gilneas before these issues are sorted out. It would ruin a great opportunity for development of the Gilneans as a nation.

Exile often entrenches nationalistic identity, but, in other cases, it destroys it. At yet, we do not know which one is the case.
I agree, but I do want to see more of the culture and I do have to wonder if the whole lack of "the population wanting to return to Gilneas" is part of the story what Blizzards wants to tell. And I also wonder, if the Varian throw away line was something that Blizzard planned prior or because of the fanbase crying out, they threw it in.

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I want the Gilneans to return to Gilneas, and I want them to become the industrial powerhouse of the Alliance. I want Gilnean rifles to replace Stormwindic crossbows. I want Gilnean tunics and chemises to clothe the masses. Let the Dwarves handle the intricacies, and let the Gilneans handle the mass production. Let's have Ironforge investment in the New Gilneas.

However, this cannot happen without story of the 'exodus' being told.
It's all good.... but the problem is that Blizzard doesn't see it that way. They see the worgen as furry night elves. And the lack of "We must return to Gilneas" storyline really hurts since it's the playerbase that is calling for it, not the Gilnean story which seems to be integrating into night elf society and moving past Gilneas.
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  #152  
Old 04-10-2014, 10:06 AM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
It's all good.... but the problem is that Blizzard doesn't see it that way. They see the worgen as furry night elves. And the lack of "We must return to Gilneas" storyline really hurts since it's the playerbase that is calling for it, not the Gilnean story which seems to be integrating into night elf society and moving past Gilneas.
We have no idea what Blizzard sees in the Gilneans. As far as I can tell, they do not know what they see either. That's the problem.
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  #153  
Old 04-10-2014, 10:15 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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We have no idea what Blizzard sees in the Gilneans. As far as I can tell, they do not know what they see either. That's the problem.
It's a problem but, what we see in game and outside of the game seems to be what Blizzard sees in the Gilneans. Which is a population that is being overwritten by "druidism" much like what the night elf fans complain about. Just going through any worgen questgiver and you pretty much get the exact same story "the forests are in danger, we must save the trees". The non-worgen Gilneans have been all but forced out. But I do wonder if that is more to reinforce the worgen versus the human which we already have in Stormwind.

Now I do agree that prior to Cata dropping, we can say that Blizzard did change their minds and went from the whole "Victorian werewolves in tophats" to "furry night elves" in game, and in Wolfheart which heavily focused on their animalistic nature over their Gilnean nature.

Which is why you see people upset with the whole "furry night elves" and want more Gilnean and less Darnassus. They want the culture and look prior to Cata.
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  #154  
Old 04-10-2014, 10:22 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
It's all good.... but the problem is that Blizzard doesn't see it that way. They see the worgen as furry night elves. And the lack of "We must return to Gilneas" storyline really hurts since it's the playerbase that is calling for it, not the Gilnean story which seems to be integrating into night elf society and moving past Gilneas.
In a way that ties into a general problem with WarCraft's humanity, of which the Gilnean worgen should at least nominally still be a part. They're aggressively indifferent to anything that happened in the past.

Retaking Lordaeron, retaking Gilneas, retaking Stromgarde; all are treated as "meh, there are other factions/people who can do that instead". After the Alliance spent massive time, money, material and manpower retaking, then rebuilding their kingdom after it fell (hell, restoring Stormwind was practically the Alliance's second mandate for existing, right after "stop the Horde"), they just leave the other human kingdoms to rot whenever the same thing happens to them.

It's part and parcel with their not caring about human origins and such. Looking back at better times and wanting to bring them back is extremely human behavior, and as a human being myself, it's hard to really relate to an entire human race that's so uniformly portrayed as lacking such hindsight and inquisitiveness.
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  #155  
Old 04-10-2014, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
It's a problem but, what we see in game and outside of the game seems to be what Blizzard sees in the Gilneans. Which is a population that is being overwritten by "druidism" much like what the night elf fans complain about. Just going through any worgen questgiver and you pretty much get the exact same story "the forests are in danger, we must save the trees". The non-worgen Gilneans have been all but forced out. But I do wonder if that is more to reinforce the worgen versus the human which we already have in Stormwind.
I'm not so sure. I'm fairly certain that the 'furry night elves' routine was merely a cop-out, given that they didn't know what to do with the Gilneans, exactly.

They clearly are not so invested in these 'furry night elves', given that they ignore them.

That, to me, is a sign that they just haven't got a clue what direction they'd like to take.
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  #156  
Old 04-10-2014, 10:42 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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In a way that ties into a general problem with WarCraft's humanity, of which the Gilnean worgen should at least nominally still be a part. They're aggressively indifferent to anything that happened in the past.

Retaking Lordaeron, retaking Gilneas, retaking Stromgarde; all are treated as "meh, there are other factions/people who can do that instead". After the Alliance spent massive time, money, material and manpower retaking, then rebuilding their kingdom after it fell (hell, restoring Stormwind was practically the Alliance's second mandate for existing, right after "stop the Horde"), they just leave the other human kingdoms to rot whenever the same thing happens to them.

It's part and parcel with their not caring about human origins and such. Looking back at better times and wanting to bring them back is extremely human behavior, and as a human being myself, it's hard to really relate to an entire human race that's so uniformly portrayed as lacking such hindsight and inquisitiveness.
I blame that on making the only playable human race in game, Stormwind.

In order to get the Gilneans into the game, they had to be turned into worgen.

If Kul Tiras wants to be a major player in the Alliance, then they will have to be turned into naga or some toher non-human race or else they will be left to rot as well.

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I'm not so sure. I'm fairly certain that the 'furry night elves' routine was merely a cop-out, given that they didn't know what to do with the Gilneans, exactly.

They clearly are not so invested in these 'furry night elves', given that they ignore them.

That, to me, is a sign that they just haven't got a clue what direction they'd like to take.
In terms of story direction, yes. Not having a single worgen show up in the SoO, and having the worgen barely play any role in MoP, the sole worgen questgiver was just another worgen pretending to be a night elf and then you had worgen druids in 5.1 and some non-night elf worgen showing up in the Horde starting zone, does show that they really aren't sure what story direction/role the worgen have, except it seems, to be furry night elves, or night elf sidekicks.

But in terms of what they think the worgen should be... that's pretty clear. But in terms of story direction, yes. I agree. Blizzard seems to flip flop.
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  #157  
Old 04-10-2014, 02:15 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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In a way that ties into a general problem with WarCraft's humanity, of which the Gilnean worgen should at least nominally still be a part. They're aggressively indifferent to anything that happened in the past.

Retaking Lordaeron, retaking Gilneas, retaking Stromgarde; all are treated as "meh, there are other factions/people who can do that instead". After the Alliance spent massive time, money, material and manpower retaking, then rebuilding their kingdom after it fell (hell, restoring Stormwind was practically the Alliance's second mandate for existing, right after "stop the Horde"), they just leave the other human kingdoms to rot whenever the same thing happens to them.

It's part and parcel with their not caring about human origins and such. Looking back at better times and wanting to bring them back is extremely human behavior, and as a human being myself, it's hard to really relate to an entire human race that's so uniformly portrayed as lacking such hindsight and inquisitiveness.
It's because doing any of those things is unacceptable for Horde gameplay. This is what I mean when I said that the presence of the Forsaken has literally ruined any hope of meaningful human progression.
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  #158  
Old 04-10-2014, 02:23 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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It's because doing any of those things is unacceptable for Horde gameplay. This is what I mean when I said that the presence of the Forsaken has literally ruined any hope of meaningful human progression.
Gameplay is it part of it, at least when it comes to Lordaeron. Then only way that Lordaeron becomes Alliance is when the Forsaken is no longer a playable race.

But the Forsaken aren't stopping Stromgarde from getting any meaningful progression.

The Forsaken don't hold the capital of Stromgarde, it's NPCs like the Syndicate and the Orges that currently do.

The Forsaken identity isn't tied up in Stromgarde. It's tied up in Lordaeron.

And yet there sits Stromgarde, it's people rotting away in a hole in the ground because they aren't the playable humans of Stormwind.
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Old 04-10-2014, 02:25 PM
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Forsaken identity has nothing to do with Lordaeron, the problem is their presence and the fact that it constitutes several leveling zones plus a capital.

Regarding Stromgarde, it absolutely is a problem with the Forsaken's presence, because anything to do with that zone (or Gilneas for that matters) is always going to affect the Forsaken in some way, which will never happen for gameplay reasons.
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Old 04-10-2014, 02:39 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Forsaken identity has nothing to do with Lordaeron, the problem is their presence and the fact that it constitutes several leveling zones plus a capital.

Regarding Stromgarde, it absolutely is a problem with the Forsaken's presence, because anything to do with that zone (or Gilneas for that matters) is always going to affect the Forsaken in some way, which will never happen for gameplay reasons.
The Forsaken control Lordaeron. The Forsaken are a playable race. The Forsaken's identity as a playable race is in Lordaeron. Just as a human's identity as a playable race is in Stormwind. I don't care if they are or are not Lordaeron, I go by when you roll a new Forsaken, you start in Lordaeron. Just as a new human starts in Stormwind. And Blizzard isn't going to remove Stormwind from the humans, just as they won't remove Lordaeron from the Forsaken.

Oddly enough, back in Vanilla, the Forsaken didn't have a presence in Stromgarde. And yet, Stromgarde stagnated as a dead/dying kingdom and the only update was to put a little Forsaken camp way over by the Wall.

Rebuilding Stromgarde doesn't affect the Forsaken in any meaningful way. It wouldn't remove them from being able to quest there, which as we saw in Cata, Blizzard had zero issues with removing Hillsbrad from the Alliance leveling scheme. Besides, the majroity of the Hrode questing there is killing trolls and Syndicate and the occasional farmer. Giving Stromgarde back to the Alliance would actually give more story because now the Horde would have to face Stromgarde and decide how much they want to mess with, or just keep the peace.

As for Gilneas, last I checked, the Forsaken abandoned it. Giving Gilneas back to the Alliance doesn't affect the Forsaken since they left it. It only affects the Forsaken if the Alliance decides to invade Silverpine, which they won't because both sides are in a cease fire and Sylvanas is no longer interested in Gilneas.

And besides, once the Forsaken leave Gilneas after level 20, you never touch it again since it's phased and it's treated as in the past. Much like how we treat the entireity of Cata questing.
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Old 04-10-2014, 03:15 PM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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The Forsaken control Lordaeron. The Forsaken are a playable race. The Forsaken's identity as a playable race is in Lordaeron.
Why, oh why, would you want to start that kind of discussion?
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  #162  
Old 04-10-2014, 03:16 PM
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And thus the chance of this thread talking about Alliance plots sans Horde wither away into nothingness.
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Old 04-10-2014, 03:21 PM
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And thus the chance of this thread talking about Alliance plots sans Horde wither away into nothingness.
Seriously, the Worgen having a contagious curse that can be transferred by drinking infected fluids solves "everything"
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  #164  
Old 04-10-2014, 03:24 PM
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Seriously, the Worgen having a contagious curse that can be transferred by drinking infected fluids solves "everything"
Sounds like fodder for a worgen terrorist plot in Stormwind.
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  #165  
Old 04-10-2014, 03:28 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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It's not much of a discussion. If I roll a Forsaken, my starting zone and the majority of my leveling is in Lordaeron. When I roll a human, my starting zone and the majority is in Stormwind.

If the point is that the reason human kingdoms not named Stormwind, are stagnating and won't be handed back to the Alliance because of the Forsaken, is only true when it comes to Lordaeron, since Lordaeron is a playable races capital city main questing hub.

Remove the Forsaken as a playable race, and the Alliance can re-take Lordaeron.

But in regards to Gilneas and Stormgarde... that can have that plot sans the Horde/Forsaken since handing them back, if you want to go the real estate route, isn't going to completely destroy the Horde's leveling presence.

The Horde leave Gilneas after level 20 and never touched again except in a BG and a rogue-only questline. In Arathi, Stromgarde is a sideshow to the Horde leveling process.

So 2 out 3 ain't bad.

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Sounds like fodder for a worgen terrorist plot in Stormwind.
If that's the case, then why haven't we heard or seen anything about Horde or Alliance races turning into worgen after fighting them?
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  #166  
Old 04-10-2014, 03:31 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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And thus the chance of this thread talking about Alliance plots sans Horde wither away into nothingness.
There's no such thing as an Alliance plot sans Horde because the Horde has been shoved so deep into Alliance lore that there's no way to get them out without Horde players screaming bloody murder.

Even the reclamation of Stromgarde only goes so far because there's no reason why humanity would put so much effort into Stromgarde and not do the same for Gilneas and Lordaeron, and even if Stromgarde is sold as a "stepping stone" towards Gilneas and Lordaeron that still carries the implication that the Alliance will someday reclaim those kingdoms, which they never will because they're Forsaken starting zones.

So yes, the Horde is very much the problem here.
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  #167  
Old 04-10-2014, 04:01 PM
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Sounds like fodder for a worgen terrorist plot in Stormwind.
More or less what it was.

A bunch of hard-line pro Alliance worgen are poisoning town water supplies with worgen blood. This spreads the curse.gnomes want to study it, Dwarves want to use it to the Alliance advantage, while humans are scared that their humanity is being stolen.

Worgen become targeted by hate groups, Night Elves get involved to give the ritual, with nobles and fearful people thinking its some plot the kaldorei cooked up to force Stormwind to be reliant on them. Add in mistrust of Varian due to him being favored of Goldrinn, patron god of worgen, and use Anduin and the draenei as mefiators and people trying to keep spirit high...


Its a plot that involves all the races,is still centered on Stormwind, and creates racial tension.
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