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  #51  
Old 01-06-2015, 02:45 PM
Volkrin Volkrin is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
EDIT: Except Amani Trolls. I totally saw Amani Trolls raise other Amani Troll Zombies, and the troll zombies totally fought alongside their living allies and did the same stuff. Because that makes sense. What's wrong with all these other losers?
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  #52  
Old 01-06-2015, 03:46 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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In all likelihood, when you die in -any- nation on Azeroth, anything you had; land, titles, properties and such, would automatically go to your heirs simply for the reason of keeping it simple. In that I mean when someone dies, why would they let any sentient undead? Remember that in the EK, that is a -very- recent event. Kalimdor was still unknown at that point, so sentient undead weren't really know, and even in Kalimdor, the Kaldorei undead either stayed where they died or had hardly any interaction with people at all. It's not like they were marching back into their hometowns demanding their property back or something.

Another reason the dead wouldn;t have had any rights is most of the lands were monarchies. This means the king (or queen) needs to know who his lords, nobles are. by holding it up in case Lord Bartholomew comes back form the dead (why would they believe that in the first place?) holds up things like revenue, oaths to be sworn and such. It also kind of cuts out any heirs from getting anything if their parents can still have the land in undeath. So much for having heirs if you're never going to relinquish what you have.

For almost all societies in WoW, when someone died, they stayed dead. There was no coming back to life or unlife. Once dead, they stayed dead. Any inheritance laws would be operating with that in mind.
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  #53  
Old 01-06-2015, 04:04 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
In all likelihood, when you die in -any- nation on Azeroth, anything you had; land, titles, properties and such, would automatically go to your heirs simply for the reason of keeping it simple. In that I mean when someone dies, why would they let any sentient undead? Remember that in the EK, that is a -very- recent event. Kalimdor was still unknown at that point, so sentient undead weren't really know, and even in Kalimdor, the Kaldorei undead either stayed where they died or had hardly any interaction with people at all. It's not like they were marching back into their hometowns demanding their property back or something.

Another reason the dead wouldn;t have had any rights is most of the lands were monarchies. This means the king (or queen) needs to know who his lords, nobles are. by holding it up in case Lord Bartholomew comes back form the dead (why would they believe that in the first place?) holds up things like revenue, oaths to be sworn and such. It also kind of cuts out any heirs from getting anything if their parents can still have the land in undeath. So much for having heirs if you're never going to relinquish what you have.

For almost all societies in WoW, when someone died, they stayed dead. There was no coming back to life or unlife. Once dead, they stayed dead. Any inheritance laws would be operating with that in mind.
That would be the most rational.
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  #54  
Old 01-11-2015, 02:18 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Most of the livings either loathe or fear the undead.

In WC universe it doesn't make much sense.

Especially the humans, since their kingdom once was destroyed by the Scourge.

The undead's mind will start to fill with the hate against the living after they are turned, even without the Lich King's control.

So the Forsaken's hate against humans make a lot of sense. However, why did the Alliance accept some Death Knights in their rank even after the Lich King's destruction? Even the Ebon Blade was permitted to stay with the Argent Crusade.
Mostly because a lot of the Death Knights are, in-story, epic heroes of legend.

It's kind of hard to be down on them when undead Beowulf, Gilgamesh, Superman, and Captain America are single-handedly responsible for saving your life on dozens of occassions.

The human race would have to be monumentally STUPID to continue hating on the Death Knights given all the good they do.

I imagine plenty of prejudice still exists towards them but it's like the X-men, you may hate undead but what happens after LITERALLY they save the world the first few times.

Do you continue hating them? If so, you are evil in my view.
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Last edited by Charles Phipps; 01-11-2015 at 02:22 PM..
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  #55  
Old 01-16-2015, 09:06 AM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

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Originally Posted by Charles Phipps View Post
Do you continue hating them? If so, you are evil in my view.
Which doesn't have to be a problem if not for blizzard's well known policy: being even remotely evil in any way is strictly illegal in the alliance nowadays.
Because that's what it's really about if you ask me. Not the logic and rationality of it. Unless you're a gnome, I guess.
Or do you see someone asking the same question about the horde? Even in the hypothetical that the forsaken were not around and allied with them, would you be asking the question? Because blood elves, troll culture and orcish history says I would not.

Beyond that, all you need is for the hated minority in question to say they're sorry. Nevermind that it's actually everyone else who should have had a problem in the first place, not said minority.

It's the same damn alignment-restricted ass-pull logic they seemed to use to justify allying with the highborne.


You guessed it: I don't particularly like death knights either.

Last edited by Icefrost; 01-16-2015 at 09:17 AM..
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  #56  
Old 01-16-2015, 09:17 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by Charles Phipps View Post
Mostly because a lot of the Death Knights are, in-story, epic heroes of legend.

It's kind of hard to be down on them when undead Beowulf, Gilgamesh, Superman, and Captain America are single-handedly responsible for saving your life on dozens of occassions.

The human race would have to be monumentally STUPID to continue hating on the Death Knights given all the good they do.

I imagine plenty of prejudice still exists towards them but it's like the X-men, you may hate undead but what happens after LITERALLY they save the world the first few times.

Do you continue hating them? If so, you are evil in my view.
A large part of why the death knights are disliked and hated, but accepted is that while they need to hurt things, to cause pain or they go crazy(ier) than they normally are, DKs are able to keep their sadistic tendencies under control and let them be used on their enemies. They are useful atm. People should hate the DKs because of what and who they are. If peace broke out all over, it wouldn't take long before problems started happening as the DKs need for pain forced them to start torturing/killing animals and people.

However the DKs are smart enough to realize this and unlike the forsaken, they do have enough self control to do their best to minimize their evil behavior. You can hate someone/thing and still use them. That doesn't make you evil if what they do (DKs in this instance) do and ARE is evil in nature.

Last edited by Kynrind; 01-16-2015 at 09:21 AM..
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  #57  
Old 01-16-2015, 10:44 AM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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You guessed it: I don't particularly like death knights either.
You don't say.

I do think Death Knights are actually probably not accepted all that much at all. We don't see them hanging around Stormwind in lore. They live in Northrend and their own camps.
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  #58  
Old 01-17-2015, 05:12 AM
Jon Targaryen Jon Targaryen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
If peace broke out all over, it wouldn't take long before problems started happening as the DKs need for pain forced them to start torturing/killing animals and people.
There are always butcher shops. Although I wouldn't want to eat something that was killed by diseases.
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  #59  
Old 01-17-2015, 05:17 AM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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However the DKs are smart enough to realize this and unlike the forsaken, they do have enough self control to do their best to minimize their evil behavior. You can hate someone/thing and still use them. That doesn't make you evil if what they do (DKs in this instance) do and ARE is evil in nature.
It's Azeroth. If they run out of things to kill, the planet will have become unrecognizable.
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  #60  
Old 01-17-2015, 12:24 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I bought a copy of the Death Knight manga and interestingly enough the summary says that the Alliance reviles and distrusts Thassarian. I will give this some further reading later on because this seems to be the most coherent and deeply written piece on Alliance views towards the now recruited Death Knights.
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  #61  
Old 01-17-2015, 01:40 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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The question is: with Forsaken, are they actually the same people they were before? Or are they puppets under Sylvanas... retaining their same awareness and memories and personality, but unquestionably different in the same vein as a person brought back through the Pet Semetary?
I can't find it, but I believe there was a book and/or Forsaken NPC in vanilla that talked about how Dalaran didn't want them back. I believe the book itself said to regard all undead as agents of the Forsaken, and not as the former person.

Of course, that mostly changed in Wrath, and then we have no clue what's going on with things after MoP.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #62  
Old 01-17-2015, 02:47 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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The question is: with Forsaken, are they actually the same people they were before? Or are they puppets under Sylvanas... retaining their same awareness and memories and personality, but unquestionably different in the same vein as a person brought back through the Pet Semetary?
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  #63  
Old 01-17-2015, 03:40 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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I think they are twisted version of themselves. They still have the same memory and intelligence, but their personality has turned much darker and hate the living.
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  #64  
Old 01-17-2015, 03:43 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I bought a copy of the Death Knight manga and interestingly enough the summary says that the Alliance reviles and distrusts Thassarian. I will give this some further reading later on because this seems to be the most coherent and deeply written piece on Alliance views towards the now recruited Death Knights.
I really really like the Death Knight manga if that tells you anything going forward.
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  #65  
Old 01-17-2015, 06:33 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I really really like the Death Knight manga if that tells you anything going forward.
It does, I am highly enjoying it. Already at the Borean Tundra part but might finish it tomorrow.
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  #66  
Old 01-17-2015, 06:58 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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It is far better than mage or shaman. I would have loved reading a paladin manga, but knowing Blizzard, it would probably have been about blood elves or draenei.
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  #67  
Old 01-17-2015, 07:07 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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It is far better than mage or shaman. I would have loved reading a paladin manga, but knowing Blizzard, it would probably have been about blood elves or draenei.
While not a manga, Ashbringer seems to be the closest thing to that.

Local comic store had a copy of that in hardcover as well, but it was peculiar because the hardcover was solid black with a skull symbol in the WoW logo above it. Nothing else to it that would have made me suspect it was Ashbringer until I opened it to find out.
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  #68  
Old 01-18-2015, 02:48 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Ashbringer is great, but something dealing with the early days of human Light worship would have been awesome too. True, paladins are a new thing, but who knows if the first humans didn't have more warrior-like priests than the current priests?
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  #69  
Old 01-18-2015, 02:54 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Ashbringer is great, but something dealing with the early days of human Light worship would have been awesome too. True, paladins are a new thing, but who knows if the first humans didn't have more warrior-like priests than the current priests?
I seem to recall that the church's clerics during the First War were somewhat akin to "warrior priests", but their training and the heaviness of their equipment put them more in the area of light infantry rather than knights.

(Incidentally, some in-game cleric NPC's utilize a hybridized armor setup, wielding maces and shields while wearing plate armor above the waist above cloth-type leggings. It also seems somewhat prevalent among a lot of the draenei Battle Priests and Anchorites in Draenor, as a lot of those in Karabor have plate shoulders and chest-pieces worn over their robes. For that matter, the style is also present in the Exodar's guard NPC's.)

Last edited by ARM3481; 01-18-2015 at 03:04 AM..
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  #70  
Old 01-18-2015, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
I seem to recall that the church's clerics during the First War were somewhat akin to "warrior priests", but their training and the heaviness of their equipment put them more in the area of light infantry rather than knights.

(Incidentally, some in-game cleric NPC's utilize a hybridized armor setup, wielding maces and shields while wearing plate armor above the waist above cloth-type leggings. It also seems somewhat prevalent among a lot of the draenei Battle Priests and Anchorites in Draenor, as a lot of those in Karabor have plate shoulders and chest-pieces worn over their robes. For that matter, the style is also present in the Exodar's guard NPC's.)
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Lady_Mara_Fordragon
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  #71  
Old 01-18-2015, 02:08 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Ashbringer is great, but something dealing with the early days of human Light worship would have been awesome too. True, paladins are a new thing, but who knows if the first humans didn't have more warrior-like priests than the current priests?
Ashbringer added further inconsistency to the Scarlet Crusade lore.
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  #72  
Old 01-18-2015, 06:35 PM
Charles Phipps Charles Phipps is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Ashbringer added further inconsistency to the Scarlet Crusade lore.
I take Ashbringer as a story about the events rather than a strict canon story.

The "canonical" event is a bunch of adventurers killed Renault, not his dad's ghost. It's just whoever is telling the Ashbringer story thought his dad's ghost would make a better story.

Likewise, they lie and say the Scarlet Crusade was always evil.
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  #73  
Old 01-19-2015, 10:16 AM
Vikstone Vikstone is offline

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However, why did the Alliance accept some Death Knights in their rank even after the Lich King's destruction? Even the Ebon Blade was permitted to stay with the Argent Crusade.
I guess they the Alliance thought they were just glad to have these dudes on their team instead of fighting against them. In times of desperation, you gotta do what you gotta do.

This is no different from the third LotR movie where Aragorn has to resort to the undead in order to fight against an enemy that heavily outnumbered Gondor (and Rohan).
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  #74  
Old 02-10-2015, 05:49 PM
SomeRandomEvilGuy SomeRandomEvilGuy is offline

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This is no different from the third LotR movie where Aragorn has to resort to the undead in order to fight against an enemy that heavily outnumbered Gondor (and Rohan).
It is different. That allowed the Army of the Dead to free themselves by fulfilling their oath to the heir of Isildir (even if Peter Jackson made it seem like it just happened because Aragorn threatened the dead king's (un)life.) The Death Knights aren't seeking that release. Aragorn knew that the Army of the Dead wouldn't be sticking around; so did they.

The Death Knights by contrast appear to have no interest in leaving the mortal plane. My guess would be that forgiveness and tolerance is probably something that the Church of Holy Light preaches. Besides, what else is the Alliance going to do with them? Try to destroy them? Leave them to turn rogue or worse, possibly even join the Horde?
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  #75  
Old 02-10-2015, 07:33 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Charles Phipps View Post
I take Ashbringer as a story about the events rather than a strict canon story.

The "canonical" event is a bunch of adventurers killed Renault, not his dad's ghost. It's just whoever is telling the Ashbringer story thought his dad's ghost would make a better story.

Likewise, they lie and say the Scarlet Crusade was always evil.
Sorry, but Ashbringer is the official version of events. Otherwise the entirety of WotLK is non-canon, because the circumstances of Darion being a death knight in possession of the Ashbringer and Tirion being with the Argent Dawn at Light's Hope Chapel by the time the expansion started are derived solely from that comic, and inform everything that happened with the Argent Crusade and Ebon Blade throughout the whole story in Northrend. Nothing previously in-game justified or allowed for either of those things.

Otherwise, to dismiss lore like Ashbringer amounts to lumping in every NPC event in-game as non-canon and insisting that the true canon is a bunch of players with pop culture-inspired names waiting around for their raid queues to pop up.
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