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  #101  
Old 04-09-2014, 07:07 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
It 's hard to make Alliance content and lore without the Horde as the Horde is a constant foil.
Au contraire mon cheri. The Horde can do what they what since their most basic defining quality is "Attack". While the Alliance's "Defense" and you cant defend if you arent being attacked. Its other qualities are civilization (which kinda leads to the real estate plots previously mentioned) and enlightement (Idk what could they do there) but in a highly idealized way instead of the Conquista Espa˝ola de las Indias way that you would love so much.
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  #102  
Old 04-09-2014, 07:17 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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All I read here is you trying to promote your insane position without actually providing us anything which could make an even remotely interesting story for the Alliance. So, I say it : draw us a plot which has absolutely no "real estate*" plot in it and would still be an interesting questline.

*which means that you can't change anything in the game, neither small bases or big zones to reflect the evolution of the plot, because it would tie the plot to locations, which is, in your book, real estate.

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We can turn the question around in a different way. Would you agree that the Horde received "real estate plots" in Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria that involved the Horde making land gains? What did the Horde "real estate plots" actually solve for the Horde and its player base? How were all the racial plots inherently forwarded in a positive way by these developments? What long-term pride was gained by the Horde player in these various real estate plots that involved land gained? How does the Horde's real estate plots serve as an example of storylines the Alliance should have? Please cite particular examples. If it would help, either you or I could move this question regarding the Horde to a different thread. I for one would prefer if this thread would keep on task about the Alliance, though I still wanted to posit my questions for you to consider.
You're kidding right ? The wide real estate plot to gain a lot of lands for the Horde let to an incredibly great number of plot positives for the faction, but also for some which are disliked by the fools who saw the Horde as redeemed in Warcraft III. As you've said yourself, the Horde's races get a lot more screen time because of the tensions among them. Why did those tensions existed ? because of the "real estate" plot : the Horde clamoured that it lacked lands and resources, Garrosh went on a war to claim them and the rest of the Horde positioned itself compared to it and how they felt that the Horde was acting to gain said resources. At its core, it is a real estate plot, which propelled all the political, sociological and even spiritual plots from the Horde since Cataclysm.

Neither Vol'jin nor Baine rebelled because they dislike what was done to the Alliance, they revolted because Garrosh' actions affected their lands and people in a way they disliked. It has been said numerous time : Garrosh would have won if not for him alienating his allies, and he alienated them because, in his land-grab (real estate plot) he had to resort to dirtier and dirtier tactics.

There is the core of all the Horde evolution, liked or not, and its great story since at least cataclysm : land, real estate plot. That's why the Gnomes can't advance as long as they either reclaim Gnomeregan or choose to build a new city elsewhere, both plots which exploit real estate but propel the story in a wide variety of ways, open for the developers to use. That's why it is so important that the Draene´ preserve what they own on Draenor in WoD : they failed to do it in the main timeline and will succeed here, and by doing so, by conserving their lands, it will open a wield variety of possible developments for the future. In fact, remember that the Horde massacred the Draene´ and went to Azeroth to claim land, except for a few corrupt individuals at its head, and it's this dichotomy between the need for sustainable lands (real estate plot) and the egoistic behaviour of a few which, in the retconned Horde, makes their story interesting.

Even Thrall sought new lands, because the freed orcs couldn't try to change and amend their ways without a land to call their own; without being tied to land, they would have remained a roaming army of monster. Sure, it didn't turn out exactly like how Thrall envisioned the whole Durotar settling, but in the end, it remains a real estate plot which was and still is at the core of many plots for different kind ingame.

Last edited by Korath; 04-09-2014 at 07:29 AM..
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  #103  
Old 04-09-2014, 07:19 AM
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All I read here is you trying to promote your insane position without actually providing us anything which could make an even remotely interesting story for the Alliance. So, I say it : draw us a plot which has absolutely no "real estate*" plot in it and would still be an interesting questline.

*which means that you can't change anything in the game, neither small bases or big zones to reflect the evolution of the plot, because it would tie the plot to locations, which is, in your book, real estate.
Have you sought the missing diplomat or Stalvan? I've heard that both of those quest lines were stellar.
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  #104  
Old 04-09-2014, 07:44 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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Have you sought the missing diplomat or Stalvan? I've heard that both of those quest lines were stellar.
The diplomat first part wasn't that great -still, just like I edited above, this quest remains tied deeply to a real estate plot, the Durotar one, because Varian agreed to go to Theramore to discuss with Thrall and find a way to achieve peace through business, because Durotar lacked resources - and while Stalvan's questline is great, it is great precisely because it is a rare occurrence and a very minor plot, which is nonetheless remotely tied to real estate. While the questline doesn't began in Mistmantle Manor and that the real estate plot isn't the main problem here, it plays a role.

Furthermore, Stalvan's questline doesn't advance the story, it only reveal old atrocities tied to the very land itself, in the form of an horror story which led the players to iconic locations, be they ruined towns, vibrant inn in a capital or haunted manor. But you can't make that much questlines which will advance the story if nothing change, and the greater changes are always tied to real estate, be it losing or gaining it.

Funnily enough, the very end of the questline state that Stalvan threaten Darkshire, which means that he is a danger, not only because of how he act and what he did, but because his actions threaten the very town and if it is not a subplot of real estate (basically "Kill the monster before he destroy the town") I don't know what it is.

Last edited by Korath; 04-09-2014 at 09:19 AM..
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  #105  
Old 04-09-2014, 09:17 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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It always comes down to blaming Horde players, doesn't it?
Horde players are single handedly responsible for everything wrong with the Alliance, and deserve to suffer, don'tcha know?

Korath, believe me, while you might enjoy seeing questing in the style of what the Horde got in Cataclysm, context is everything, and the context in which it appeared for Horde questing made it it virtually unenjoyable, so don't assume it'd necessarily work the other way around.
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  #106  
Old 04-09-2014, 09:20 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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Korath, believe me, while you might enjoy seeing questing in the style of what the Horde got in Cataclysm, context is everything, and the context in which it appeared for Horde questing made it it virtually unenjoyable, so don't assume it'd necessarily work the other way around.
We have to agree to disagree here. I felt that the context was logical for the Horde. Even if I would have preferred the Alliance to be the aggressor, honestly. But, hey, Zone Balance and all that made it impossible.
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  #107  
Old 04-09-2014, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Korath View Post
I felt that the context was logical for the Horde.
You felt, sure. The vast majority of the Horde player base did not.

Meaningful content can take many different forms, but how it's handled can be far more important than anything.
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  #108  
Old 04-09-2014, 12:51 PM
Hellscream1 Hellscream1 is offline

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Neither Vol'jin nor Baine rebelled because they dislike what was done to the Alliance, they revolted because Garrosh' actions affected their lands and people in a way they disliked. It has been said numerous time : Garrosh would have won if not for him alienating his allies, and he alienated them because, in his land-grab (real estate plot) he had to resort to dirtier and dirtier tactics.
A real shame that they were too spineless to win.
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  #109  
Old 04-09-2014, 02:09 PM
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I have moved things out of order to help group and organize issues better. I hope you do not mind.

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The diplomat first part wasn't that great -still, just like I edited above, this quest remains tied deeply to a real estate plot, the Durotar one, because Varian agreed to go to Theramore to discuss with Thrall and find a way to achieve peace through business, because Durotar lacked resources - and while Stalvan's questline is great, it is great precisely because it is a rare occurrence and a very minor plot, which is nonetheless remotely tied to real estate. While the questline doesn't began in Mistmantle Manor and that the real estate plot isn't the main problem here, it plays a role.

Furthermore, Stalvan's questline doesn't advance the story, it only reveal old atrocities tied to the very land itself, in the form of an horror story which led the players to iconic locations, be they ruined towns, vibrant inn in a capital or haunted manor. But you can't make that much questlines which will advance the story if nothing change, and the greater changes are always tied to real estate, be it losing or gaining it.

Funnily enough, the very end of the questline state that Stalvan threaten Darkshire, which means that he is a danger, not only because of how he act and what he did, but because his actions threaten the very town and if it is not a subplot of real estate (basically "Kill the monster before he destroy the town") I don't know what it is.
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Originally Posted by Korath View Post
All I read here is you trying to promote your insane position without actually providing us anything which could make an even remotely interesting story for the Alliance. So, I say it : draw us a plot which has absolutely no "real estate*" plot in it and would still be an interesting questline.

*which means that you can't change anything in the game, neither small bases or big zones to reflect the evolution of the plot, because it would tie the plot to locations, which is, in your book, real estate.
Talk about desperately grasping at straws, or, rather, you constructing absurd strawman positions.

Sadly, I don't think you understand what I mean by a real estate plot which has resulted in you incredulously stretching its meaning. This is not the first thread in which I have used this term. Quests taking place on a plot of land does not a real estate plot make. A real estate plot involves the Horde or Alliance retaking or claiming a plot of land, often for the sake of simply having it. The plot can basically be summed up as "We get this land now." The premise starts with the land reclamation. All "lore development" merely exists to serve the initial premise: "We get this land now." The reclamation of Stromgarde, Lordaeron, Gilneas, Theramore, Shadowforge, and Grim Batol are all real estate plots. Stalvan was not a real estate plot because the plot did not revolve around claiming land. The missing diplomat was not a real estate plot because the plot did not revolve around claiming or gaining new land. The missing diplomat went to negotiate a peace with the Horde. It was far less about real estate and far more about the Alliance's history with the Horde in the First and Second Wars. That's the real impetus behind the peace summit. If anything, it was about trying to prevent another boring real estate plot from occurring again. But that is such an incredibly small part of the questline. It's not as if Alliance players felt great pride when they confronted Lady Prestor with Marcus Jonathan or gave a single thought to this epic quest's loose, if not entirely tangential, connection with Durotar.
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  #110  
Old 04-09-2014, 02:34 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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I think the long term goal should be to move past real estate plots, but with the way Blizzard set up the story for most Alliance races you can't do that. Gnomes and Worgen especially are way too tied to Gnomeregan and Gilneas to move on to something else and have it feel natural and just not be stupid. Dwarves (because of the Dark Iron), Humans, and Night Elves suffer from this too, but not as much as the Gnomes and Worgen. Draenei can pretty much do whatever because they basically no connection to anything on Azeroth.

For Worgen and Gnomes to move beyond Gilneas and Gnomergan they need to have those issues resolved. Just giving up on them would feel out of place because of how important the story has made those places to the races. Just resolving them through a short story, or in the background could work. Have a Worgen mention that Gilneas has been resettled because of Wrynn's treaty with the Horde. Have a Gnome say that Gnomeregan has been cleansed of hostile forces and that it's slowly being cleaned, allowing the Gnomes to look to things beyond Dun Morogh.

I don't really want to type something else out for the other races, but I do want to say something about Stromgarde. I know it isn't important in the grand scheme of things, but I would really like it to be revisited. Danath was a big character once upon a time, and him being completely ignored is just silly. If Stormwind's story focused on the House of Nobles vs Varian this might be a good place to have some of that. I think most of us have heard of the "League of Arathor being House of Noble goons" theory.
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  #111  
Old 04-09-2014, 02:51 PM
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Here's an idea for an Alliance story. Magni Bronzebeard. Something with him at any rate. It's not really part of any land issues. Perhaps Magni has become something far more than he once was and becomes viewed as a God to the Dwarves? Maybe he's even ascended to having become some kind of Titan Construct the Titans themselves never imagined? A whole new faith could be forged around dwarves studying runes and titanic power being able to commune with Magni who, due to his new form of existence, has become much more knowledgable and wise?

Bring on the Rune Masters!
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  #112  
Old 04-09-2014, 02:55 PM
Dawnfeld Dawnfeld is offline

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I think the long term goal should be to move past real estate plots, but with the way Blizzard set up the story for most Alliance races you can't do that. Gnomes and Worgen especially are way too tied to Gnomeregan and Gilneas to move on to something else and have it feel natural and just not be stupid. Dwarves (because of the Dark Iron), Humans, and Night Elves suffer from this too, but not as much as the Gnomes and Worgen. Draenei can pretty much do whatever because they basically no connection to anything on Azeroth.

For Worgen and Gnomes to move beyond Gilneas and Gnomergan they need to have those issues resolved. Just giving up on them would feel out of place because of how important the story has made those places to the races. Just resolving them through a short story, or in the background could work. Have a Worgen mention that Gilneas has been resettled because of Wrynn's treaty with the Horde. Have a Gnome say that Gnomeregan has been cleansed of hostile forces and that it's slowly being cleaned, allowing the Gnomes to look to things beyond Dun Morogh.

I don't really want to type something else out for the other races, but I do want to say something about Stromgarde. I know it isn't important in the grand scheme of things, but I would really like it to be revisited. Danath was a big character once upon a time, and him being completely ignored is just silly. If Stormwind's story focused on the House of Nobles vs Varian this might be a good place to have some of that. I think most of us have heard of the "League of Arathor being House of Noble goons" theory.
Pretty much this. These races are heavily tied to these places, and the land isn't meaningless by any means. These are their homes. Something has to be done. It has to be resolved before the races can move on. I'm not saying the Alliance should only concern itself with real estate plots, but it should resolve the threads that are hanging loose and THEN develop interesting non-real estate stuff from there (Or simultaneously).

A reclaimed Stromgarde has a lot of potential I agree, though I don't think it'd ever remove itself from the Alliance in the state it'd be, even if reclaimed and rebuilt.
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  #113  
Old 04-09-2014, 03:05 PM
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Talk about desperately grasping at straws, or, rather, you constructing absurd strawman positions.
You need to reassess what fallacies you keep accusing your opponents of because you claim "strawman" so frequently that it's rapidly starting to look like it's because you never actually have any point beyond pretentious eyerolling.
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  #114  
Old 04-09-2014, 03:18 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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You need to reassess what fallacies you keep accusing your opponents of because you claim "strawman" so frequently that it's rapidly starting to look like it's because you never actually have any point beyond pretentious eyerolling.
What is it that he said yhat you don't consider a syrawman?
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  #115  
Old 04-09-2014, 03:20 PM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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Here's an idea for an Alliance story. Magni Bronzebeard. Something with him at any rate. It's not really part of any land issues. Perhaps Magni has become something far more than he once was and becomes viewed as a God to the Dwarves? Maybe he's even ascended to having become some kind of Titan Construct the Titans themselves never imagined? A whole new faith could be forged around dwarves studying runes and titanic power being able to commune with Magni who, due to his new form of existence, has become much more knowledgable and wise?

Bring on the Rune Masters!
I would rather dwarves stick with the Light, but instead have their own focus and drive behind it.

Make them methodical, practical and exploratory practitioners. They are scientific, they seek answers. Why does the Light exist? How does it is exist? They still believe wholeheartedly in it's power and majesty, but they still want to find out how it is like it is, the mechanics of how it works and all other quantifiable variables. They use it, but they question it at the same time.

This can lead to disagreements and tensions with the more ordinary light-worshippers, but not anything violent at least in WoW's lifetime.
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  #116  
Old 04-09-2014, 03:22 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I would rather dwarves stick with the Light, but instead have their own focus and drive behind it.

Make them methodical, practical and exploratory practitioners. They are scientific, they seek answers. Why does the Light exist? How does it is exist? They still believe wholeheartedly in it's power and majesty, but they still want to find out how it is like it is, the mechanics of how it works and all other quantifiable variables. They use it, but they question it at the same time.

This can lead to disagreements and tensions with the more ordinary light-worshippers, but not anything violent at least in WoW's lifetime.
Seems more gnomish
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  #117  
Old 04-09-2014, 03:24 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I would rather dwarves stick with the Light, but instead have their own focus and drive behind it.

Make them methodical, practical and exploratory practitioners. They are scientific, they seek answers. Why does the Light exist? How does it is exist? They still believe wholeheartedly in it's power and majesty, but they still want to find out how it is like it is, the mechanics of how it works and all other quantifiable variables. They use it, but they question it at the same time.

This can lead to disagreements and tensions with the more ordinary light-worshippers, but not anything violent at least in WoW's lifetime.
Shouldn't that be at least a Gnome theme?
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  #118  
Old 04-09-2014, 03:25 PM
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The Explorer's League is totally gnomish too.

You know, those scientific dwarves who discover and explore things. Definitely gnomes.
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  #119  
Old 04-09-2014, 03:27 PM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Shouldn't that be at least a Gnome theme?
I had always hoped Gnome Priests would believe the Light to be from a combination of meta-physical and tangible sources, namely the various, 'Sparks,' that were referenced in the Storm Peaks. Like... the, 'Spark of Imagination,' could be the source of Shadow (most of the Shadow spec's spells and such are based in the mind, like the Imagination), while the, 'Spark of Creation,' could be the source of Light (sort of like how the hearts of Naaru are a, 'Spark of the Original Light of Creation,' as Velen describes it).

Would have loved to of seen the Gnomes kind of discover the Light in that sense and connect themselves to the mechagnomes and these sources of power in that philosophy.
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Old 04-09-2014, 03:29 PM
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There's no real reason for limiting it to one race.
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  #121  
Old 04-09-2014, 03:32 PM
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Of course not, I just object to the idea that anything involving the word 'science' is clearly gnomish, hence my reaction to people immediately going "sounds gnomish".

Gnomish Light-wielders will of course be interested/ascribe to that nature of Light-worship, but given the fact there are simply far more dwarf light-wielders than there are gnomish ones, they would be the ones representing that line of thought the most.
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  #122  
Old 04-09-2014, 03:34 PM
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I'm saying that Gnomes are more interested in the science of things, Dwarves with history, and the Humans with using things. That's how I feel the Light would work out for those 3.
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  #123  
Old 04-09-2014, 03:42 PM
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I say mix as much as you like, while keeping some races as the poster child of the different movements. By Khardros's hammer, leave those boundaries behind, sons of Khaz!

(Actually, that goes for most races. While I have no problem with them having their area of expertise, I feel that they shouldn't be tied too tightly to them. We don't need clones. Besides, dwarves are interested in science too, they're just more practical than gnomes.)
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  #124  
Old 04-09-2014, 04:22 PM
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What about a combination of the light and runemaster ideas? We know that the holy light has all sorts of weird magical sigils and power words, so it seems like it should be possible to craft Light-runes.


Or, alternatively:

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You know what, let's just make seven dwarven paladin orders; Rajh cult, tyr cult, Suen cult, naaru cult from the wildhammers in outland, remnant of the silver hand, new dwarf-born order of paladins and scarlet crusaders that were cast out when the order became humans-only. They get an excellent set-up in novels, epic art, great characters, lots of mention in interviews. And then they only show up in a single questline, which consists entirely of a poorly executed shout-out to snow white and the seven dwarves
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  #125  
Old 04-09-2014, 04:43 PM
Afaslizo Afaslizo is offline

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That being said, tell me more about how most of the Horde's historical lands have been conquered recently by the Alliance.
Could you point out for me which lands do you even consider historical for the Horde?

Actually both Horde and Alliance should go and die because they are occupying historical Troll land. You know the Zandalari have a point.
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