Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > WarCraft Lore Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-03-2015, 11:41 AM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default How did the Alliance accept the Death Knights?

Most of the livings either loathe or fear the undead.

In WC universe it doesn't make much sense.

Especially the humans, since their kingdom once was destroyed by the Scourge.

The undead's mind will start to fill with the hate against the living after they are turned, even without the Lich King's control.

So the Forsaken's hate against humans make a lot of sense. However, why did the Alliance accept some Death Knights in their rank even after the Lich King's destruction? Even the Ebon Blade was permitted to stay with the Argent Crusade.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-03-2015, 12:05 PM
Drusus Drusus is offline

Elune
Drusus's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Greymane's Offensive
Posts: 8,699

Default

They didn't start murdering Alliance citizens because they felt sorry for themselves.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feltongue View Post
you're the edgemaster 9000 with the leet memes who's close second to Gurzog in shitposting.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-03-2015, 12:24 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
They didn't start murdering Alliance citizens because they felt sorry for themselves.
It doesn't matter, their existence is a disgrace against their former living selves, kill them is release them from their misery from the living's view.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-03-2015, 12:33 PM
Drusus Drusus is offline

Elune
Drusus's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Greymane's Offensive
Posts: 8,699

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
It doesn't matter, their existence is a disgrace against their former living selves, kill them is release them from their misery from the living's view.
You've got this band of shock troops who are pissed off against the foe you're gearing up to fight and seem content to put up with your suicide missions and generally don't mind being treated like shit by the brass so long as they get a chance to punch the Lich King in the face.

The only real downside to going "Err, sure... you can go to Northrend and die fighting the Scourge I guess?" was the potential security risk from them potentially lying through their teeth about not serving the Scourge but considering how the Alliance at least seemed content to put Thassarian on suicide missions that was probably their way of fixing it.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feltongue View Post
you're the edgemaster 9000 with the leet memes who's close second to Gurzog in shitposting.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-03-2015, 04:55 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

Loremaster
ARM3481's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,565

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
You've got this band of shock troops who are pissed off against the foe you're gearing up to fight and seem content to put up with your suicide missions and generally don't mind being treated like shit by the brass so long as they get a chance to punch the Lich King in the face.

The only real downside to going "Err, sure... you can go to Northrend and die fighting the Scourge I guess?" was the potential security risk from them potentially lying through their teeth about not serving the Scourge but considering how the Alliance at least seemed content to put Thassarian on suicide missions that was probably their way of fixing it.
Well the "suicide mission" thing happened under the auspices of a disguised San'layn controlling the Alliance commander in Borean Tundra, so it probably wasn't a particularly legitimate representation of Alliance policy concerning the death knights anyway.

Ultimately "Varian said so" seemed to be the primary reason that everyone else in the Alliance accepted them.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-03-2015, 05:48 PM
Shaman Shaman is offline

Site Staff - Admin
Shaman's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: The Barrens
Posts: 12,448

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Well the "suicide mission" thing happened under the auspices of a disguised San'layn controlling the Alliance commander in Borean Tundra, so it probably wasn't a particularly legitimate representation of Alliance policy concerning the death knights anyway.

Ultimately "Varian said so" seemed to be the primary reason that everyone else in the Alliance accepted them.
I think its more that Tirion vouched for them than Varian said so. There can't be that many of them anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-03-2015, 05:53 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
I think its more that Tirion vouched for them than Varian said so. There can't be that many of them anyway.
Which makes little sense, a devout Paladin wanted to keep these twisted undead rather than smash them to let them rest in peace.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-03-2015, 05:56 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,949

Default

Only sith deal in absolutes.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-03-2015, 06:13 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

Arch-Druid
Kynrind's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,980

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Which makes little sense, a devout Paladin wanted to keep these twisted undead rather than smash them to let them rest in peace.


*cough*Argent Dawn/Crusade!*cough* There are organizations with living humans that suffered the zombie apocalypse that have no problem working with the undead, provided those undead aren't total arseholes. Being undead isn't an automatic rejection for most, although it should be a strike against them (2 strikes left). It's how the undead acts that is more important.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-03-2015, 06:33 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
*cough*Argent Dawn/Crusade!*cough* There are organizations with living humans that suffered the zombie apocalypse that have no problem working with the undead, provided those undead aren't total arseholes. Being undead isn't an automatic rejection for most, although it should be a strike against them (2 strikes left). It's how the undead acts that is more important.
Because they were facing a common enemy at that time, they need whatever they could use.

You miss the point, people hate and want to destroy the undead not simply because they are evil(most of them are), but because they are a twisted mockery to their former living self, they are suffering in this zombie shell and could not go for afterlife, kill them is to free them from this torment.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-03-2015, 06:34 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

Arch-Druid
Kynrind's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,980

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Because they were facing a common enemy at that time, they need whatever they could use.

You miss the point, people hate and want to destroy the undead not simply because they are evil(most of them are), but because they are a twisted mockery to their former living self, they are suffering in this zombie shell and could not go for afterlife, kill them is to free them from this torment.
But it's obvious that the undead can exist with the living in peace. If the undead were hated as much as you are claiming, then the forsaken wouldn't be a player race.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-03-2015, 06:36 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

Elune
Lord Grimtale's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Slaughtered Lamb
Posts: 22,046
BattleTag: Grimtale67#1407

Default

Death Knights aren't treated like shit by the rest of the Alliance. At worst there is likely a level of discomfort working with them like how there is with Worgen, but the fact that they're trusted enough to command armies is indicative of it being nothing more than that.

What's more, the Alliance has just moved away from their distrust of undead. Hell, the entire world has. A lot of the current issues with the Forsaken pertains to something more than just their state of being.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-03-2015, 06:37 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,503

Default

Blizz has done a very poor job of codifying cultural, moral and social norms for the races and factions
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-03-2015, 06:37 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
But it's obvious that the undead can exist with the living in peace. If the undead were hated as much as you are claiming, then the forsaken wouldn't be a player race.
It's not about can exist in peace, but in the view of the living, the best for them is to destroy this form and let them rest in peace.

The Forsaken are playable because it's a game, it doesn't mean its player could live with true zombies.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-03-2015, 06:41 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

Elune
Lord Grimtale's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Slaughtered Lamb
Posts: 22,046
BattleTag: Grimtale67#1407

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
It's not about can exist in peace, but in the view of the living, the best for them is to destroy this form and let them rest in peace.

The Forsaken are playable because it's a game, it doesn't mean its player could live with true zombies.
Stormwind changed its views on that when Varian came into power. I'm sorry you can't cope with that but that's what's canon now.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-03-2015, 06:45 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Stormwind changed its views on that when Varian came into power. I'm sorry you can't cope with that but that's what's canon now.
Which doesn't make much sense really.

In that old quest, Bolvar/Varian ordered you to kill Blightcaller while respect the former ranger lord as a great hero. Obviously to the humans, the undead and their former self are separated beings.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-03-2015, 06:50 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

Elune
Lord Grimtale's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Slaughtered Lamb
Posts: 22,046
BattleTag: Grimtale67#1407

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Which doesn't make much sense really.

In that old quest, Bolvar/Varian ordered you to kill Blightcaller while respect the former ranger lord as a great hero. Obviously to the humans, the undead and their former self are separated beings.
They sent you to kill Blightcaller because he was killing SI:7 members.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-03-2015, 06:59 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

Elune
Millenia's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,836
BattleTag: Millenia#1386

Default

The Allliance has been okay toward non-murderous undead in general.

If the Lunar Festival is older than contact with night elves, then the dwarves have been having their ancestors visit once a year for a long, long while.

In addition, you have Alliance characters work with ghosts without much issue, like Captain Grayson and Yalda.
__________________
"All right, I'll get that kid to eat. Where's my screw driver and my plumber's helper? I'll open up his mouth and I'll shove it in."


The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-03-2015, 07:00 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
They sent you to kill Blightcaller because he was killing SI:7 members.
No, he didn't say that's the reason but "Order Must be Restored".

Look at the quest afterwards.

Quote:
It is a tragedy. I think... I believe that our kind is cursed, <name>. We are cursed to lose our greatest warriors; our most noble heroes; our most gifted scholars.

We are indebted to you and I assure you, <name>, wherever Nathanos Marris is now, he smiles down upon you.
He thinks that Nathanos would be grateful to free from that twisted form.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-03-2015, 07:01 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,503

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
The Allliance has been okay toward non-murderous undead in general.

If the Lunar Festival is older than contact with night elves, then the dwarves have been having their ancestors visit once a year for a long, long while.

In addition, you have Alliance characters work with ghosts without much issue, like Captain Grayson and Yalda.
Ancestor wirship among orcs, trolls and tauren is meaningless if everyone else does it too
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-03-2015, 07:03 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
The Allliance has been okay toward non-murderous undead in general.

If the Lunar Festival is older than contact with night elves, then the dwarves have been having their ancestors visit once a year for a long, long while.

In addition, you have Alliance characters work with ghosts without much issue, like Captain Grayson and Yalda.
Ancestor and some ghosts are not undead. Especially ancestor spirits.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-03-2015, 07:09 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

Elune
Lord Grimtale's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Slaughtered Lamb
Posts: 22,046
BattleTag: Grimtale67#1407

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
No, he didn't say that's the reason but "Order Must be Restored".

Look at the quest afterwards.



He thinks that Nathanos would be grateful to free from that twisted form.
Opinions can change, remember that Varian was ready to slam your DK character into the ground before being urged to read the letter given by Tirion. It is likely from that point forward that Varian had a change of heart about his understanding of the undead.

The whole quest has been made non-canon since Nathanos is still alive, so this is all rather moot.

But then we go right back around to this point you keep bringing up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Which makes little sense, a devout Paladin wanted to keep these twisted undead rather than smash them to let them rest in peace.
Which doesn't matter anymore. People accept the undead now. It's a lot like how Necromancy is no longer stigmatized in GW2.

Last edited by Lord Grimtale; 01-03-2015 at 07:11 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-03-2015, 07:11 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,503

Default

Man bringing Nathanos back was so poorly done
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-03-2015, 07:16 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Banished
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,027

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Opinions can change, remember that Varian was ready to slam your DK character into the ground before being urged to read the letter given by Tirion. It is likely from that point forward that Varian had a change of heart about his understanding of the undead.

The whole quest has been made non-canon since Nathanos is still alive, so this is all rather moot.
Which I don't think it makes much sense. Sure it's ok to work with them when there was huge common threat, but things get different when it's done. Especially Deathknights are not just undead, but also masters of necromancy.

Even to Dalaran, necromancy was forbidden before the Third War.

This is how Dalaran view it after the war.

Quote:
Necromancy is the study of magic involving the dead. It is highly illegal and should be avoided at all costs. I discuss necromancy here only because it is our obligation to have a basic understanding of the magic employed by our enemies - and make no mistake, any practitioner of necromancy is your enemy. Necromancers and their followers are the enemies of all living things. Their influence must be avoided at all costs.
Didn't Nathanos say he faked death?
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-03-2015, 07:16 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

Elune
Millenia's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,836
BattleTag: Millenia#1386

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Ancestor wirship among orcs, trolls and tauren is meaningless if everyone else does it too
We are the World of Warcraft. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
__________________
"All right, I'll get that kid to eat. Where's my screw driver and my plumber's helper? I'll open up his mouth and I'll shove it in."


The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
alliance, death knights

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.