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Old 08-15-2015, 05:20 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Tome of Knowledge War Crimes in Azeroth

So I see this topic come up and it triggers me into sodomizing someone. People keep saying that real life doesn't apply to Azeroth, so things like war crimes should never be brought up.

But what does a war crime mean exactly?

We know that there's law on Azeroth. We've seen trials long before the book of the same name. We know treason is a thing. We know some actions are so taboo, that they're punishable by death. We know that someone can become such a threat, that multiple factions band together, or compete, to stop said threat. What they do afterwards is changes from context to context. Normally the threats don't live long enough, or stay captive to see the law applied.
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Old 08-15-2015, 05:21 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Anything the Alliance does against the Horde.
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Old 08-15-2015, 06:09 AM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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"War crimes" came to be in the modern West. The overwhelmingly majority of history has not had them.

The prosecution and the accused in the Nuremberg Trials shared a cultural background (white, Judeo-Christian, etc.). For war crimes to really matter across nations there needs to a shared background.

The World of Warcraft does not have the history to warrant war crimes.
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Old 08-15-2015, 06:19 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
"War crimes" came to be in the modern West. The overwhelmingly majority of history has not had them.

The prosecution and the accused in the Nuremberg Trials shared a cultural background (white, Judeo-Christian, etc.). For war crimes to really matter across nations there needs to a shared background.

The World of Warcraft does not have the history to warrant war crimes.
Didn't medieval times had trials and such, just flawed ones? There's cultural overlap regarding murder and theft.

Blood elves and the Forsaken have history with the Alliance, and the orcs spent their time in interment camps with their leader being someone who grew up with human culture. Tauren don't have the same culture, but they share similar moral views.
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Old 08-15-2015, 06:30 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
Didn't medieval times had trials and such, just flawed ones? There's cultural overlap regarding murder and theft.

Blood elves and the Forsaken have history with the Alliance, and the orcs spent their time in interment camps with their leader being someone who grew up with human culture. Tauren don't have the same culture, but they share similar moral views.
He didn't say that laws didn't exist. Laws have always existed, in one form or another.

International laws are a more recent thing, though.

Maybe there are things that race A considers a war crime, but there should be no (almost) international ruling.
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Old 08-15-2015, 06:45 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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He didn't say that laws didn't exist. Laws have always existed, in one form or another.

International laws are a more recent thing, though.

Maybe there are things that race A considers a war crime, but there should be no (almost) international ruling.
Don't undermine me.

Except that there are cultural similarities. Most races have issues with necromancy, possibly due to their light based beliefs, or personal history with it. Similar views regarding slavery.

The factions have worked together several times, so wouldn't there be cultural overlap over what they consider to be a war crime?
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Old 08-15-2015, 07:11 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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The Laws of Armed Conflict exist because the end goal isn't the destruction or subjugation of the enemy. It is suppose to prevent unnecessary suffering and destruction without impeding the war effort to help ease the transition to peace. There doesn't need to be cultural similarities.
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Old 08-15-2015, 07:12 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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The problem is that the concept of war crimes goes hand in hand with the concept of human rights. Which, as far as I remember, we have not really seen so far.
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Old 08-15-2015, 07:38 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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The problem is that the concept of war crimes goes hand in hand with the concept of human rights. Which, as far as I remember, we have not really seen so far.
Most of the races acknowledge slavery as wrong. Also necromancy. Culturally, most of the races feel as if the dead should remain dead.
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Old 08-15-2015, 07:44 AM
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WoD was our being punished for Garrosh's warcrimes. That's how punishment works, dude apparently commits atrocities, so you give him is own personal alternate universe to play in.
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Old 08-15-2015, 08:13 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Most of the races acknowledge slavery as wrong. Also necromancy. Culturally, most of the races feel as if the dead should remain dead.
Yes, but there's no reason to assume that they all got together and established common laws. The fact that they're all against slavery is more or less just a coincidence.
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Old 08-15-2015, 08:26 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Most of the races acknowledge slavery as wrong. Also necromancy. Culturally, most of the races feel as if the dead should remain dead.
Disliking slavery does not make you a proponent of human rights. Many cultures (both in history and in Azeroth) did not like slavery out of philosophical reasons, yet had not problem with serfdom, which, going by the human rights view point, is almost as bad as slavery (and in certain cases even worse).
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Old 08-15-2015, 08:40 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Yes, but there's no reason to assume that they all got together and established common laws. The fact that they're all against slavery is more or less just a coincidence.
Just because they haven't done it, doesn't mean they can't in the future. I'm saying that idea of war crimes in Azeroth isn't baseless.
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Old 08-15-2015, 08:45 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Just because they haven't done it, doesn't mean they can't in the future. I'm saying that idea of war crimes in Azeroth isn't baseless.
If Blizzard finally allows us to go more than a month without the faction war? Probably. Azeroth has already taken the first step, in War Crimes, after all.

People are still right when they say that it shouldn't be brought up (as more than just something we might deal with in the future). We don't bring up labour unions when talking about peons, after all.
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Old 08-15-2015, 09:35 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
He didn't say that laws didn't exist. Laws have always existed, in one form or another.

International laws are a more recent thing, though.

Maybe there are things that race A considers a war crime, but there should be no (almost) international ruling.
Not exactly. We have had international customs, especially in the field of war between Kingdoms for centuries. You can go back to Grotius for the first work about International Law proper (but founded on the Natural Law), but even he was merely acknowledging what was already existing in a less formal way. International Law is far older than the XXth Century. Remember that the Nuremberg -and to a lesser extent the Tokyo- Tribunals were deemed qualified to deal with the crimes of WWII because there was previous treaties* that dated back as far as the very end of the XIXth Century which prohibited most of the atrocious behaviour that the Nazis and Japanese had partaken with.

* I especially think about the Briand-KelLog Pact signed in 1928 outlawed war as a way to settle dispute, for instance, and was one of the basis of the Nuremberg's competence, since Germany had signed it and had not denounced it when Hitler commited his crimes.

As a side note, it is precisely because there was no Law at that time which allowed International competence to deal with the way a country treated its citizens which explains why the crimes of the Nazis from 1933 up to 1939 were not prosecuted at that time.
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Old 08-15-2015, 09:36 AM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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Should players be penalized for attacking healers since medics are protected under the Geneva Convention?
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Old 08-15-2015, 10:44 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
If Blizzard finally allows us to go more than a month without the faction war? Probably. Azeroth has already taken the first step, in War Crimes, after all.

People are still right when they say that it shouldn't be brought up (as more than just something we might deal with in the future). We don't bring up labour unions when talking about peons, after all.
What exactly do you think my argument is that you feel the need to disagree with me?
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Old 08-15-2015, 11:42 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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What exactly do you think my argument is that you feel the need to disagree with me?
I disagree with everything!

Edit:
Serious answer:
If I understood you correctly, you believe that bringing up war crimes in discussions about Warcraft is valid. I agree with that to an extent; for example, you could say that action X should be a war crime. Mentioning war crimes is fine, as long as you knowledge that they're currently not a thing in Warcraft, as far as we know, and that, if Azerothians have a notion of what a war crime is, we wouldn't know what they consider a war crime, so we can't go around calling characters war criminals. When people start calling character Y a war criminal, that's when I get mildly annoyed.

Last edited by Nazja; 08-15-2015 at 12:04 PM..
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Old 08-15-2015, 11:53 AM
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A war crime is blaming everything on garrosh and not the entire horde.
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Old 08-15-2015, 11:58 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Quote:
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I disagree with everything!
I will spank you.
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Old 08-15-2015, 12:06 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Clearly Azeroth needs a UN in order to codify what a "war crime" is exactly since it's pretty clear that it's very fluid and only means what the plot demands in order to ensure that there are the playable races in the factions.

I suspect that we will call it the "Army of Light".
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Old 08-15-2015, 12:13 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Clearly Azeroth needs a UN in order to codify what a "war crime" is exactly since it's pretty clear that it's very fluid and only means what the plot demands in order to ensure that there are the playable races in the factions.

I suspect that we will call it the "Army of Light".
Does that mean the Army of the Light will be ineffectual and eventually disbanded after a new, mustached Orc appears? Then, after we kill him, we form a new Light Army?
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Old 08-15-2015, 12:14 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Does that mean the Army of the Light will be ineffectual and eventually disbanded after a new, mustached Orc appears? Then, after we kill him, we form a new Light Army?
It'll be a mustached, wretched blood elf, but yes.
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Old 08-15-2015, 12:35 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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It'll be a mustached, wretched blood elf, but yes.
It'll be an Orc. That's the only way you can have the Siege of Orgrimmar part 2 (and Blizzard can reuse another raid). But this time he'll blame the goblins for failing him.

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Old 08-16-2015, 10:22 PM
Veryyawn Veryyawn is offline

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Quote:
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Should players be penalized for attacking healers since medics are protected under the Geneva Convention?
good point.

The trolls and vol'Jin have no problem with necromancy btw. War chief of the horde, pro-necromancy
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