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Old 11-15-2017, 10:08 AM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Originally Posted by Royalpimp View Post
The whole Louis CK thing is so overblown it's ridiculous. Stopped liking him some time ago but I really hope he can bounce back from this.
I dislike how this sexual assault craze is turning into a witch hunt of nothing more than alleged allegations (with the internet then saying that person is 100% guilty right away) or things that are blown incredibly out of proportion due to it being the current fad such as the Louis CK thing.
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  #11427  
Old 11-15-2017, 11:17 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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I dislike how this sexual assault craze is turning into a witch hunt of nothing more than alleged allegations (with the internet then saying that person is 100% guilty right away) or things that are blown incredibly out of proportion due to it being the current fad such as the Louis CK thing.
Sexual assault is weird like that. Most of the time there's no evidence, so it's one person's word against another in court. The word of multiple people saying the guy tried the same thing seems more believable, though I suppose there's still the possibility that they're all false (and we have no way of knowing what the false accusation rate could possibly be).
Likely due to the lack of evidence in these kinds of crimes and how heinous they are, just an accusation of sexual assault is enough to ruin the lives of most men (unless they're a member of the RNC, of course).
I'm not aware of any way to deal with this, honestly.
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Old 11-15-2017, 12:20 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Sexual assault is weird like that. Most of the time there's no evidence, so it's one person's word against another in court. The word of multiple people saying the guy tried the same thing seems more believable, though I suppose there's still the possibility that they're all false (and we have no way of knowing what the false accusation rate could possibly be).
Likely due to the lack of evidence in these kinds of crimes and how heinous they are, just an accusation of sexual assault is enough to ruin the lives of most men (unless they're a member of the RNC, of course).
I'm not aware of any way to deal with this, honestly.
The main issue with multiple people and rich people is always the part where you just know several of those people just want in on the settlement. There's no denying that there are shitty people out there that have abused their power but there's also no denying that money can make people say lots of things l.
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Old 11-15-2017, 12:44 PM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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I dislike how this sexual assault craze is turning into a witch hunt of nothing more than alleged allegations (with the internet then saying that person is 100% guilty right away) or things that are blown incredibly out of proportion due to it being the current fad such as the Louis CK thing.
How is this case blown out of proportion? He literally admitted to using his professional standing to invite girls to his room so he could masturbate in front of them.
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Old 11-15-2017, 01:18 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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The main issue with multiple people and rich people is always the part where you just know several of those people just want in on the settlement. There's no denying that there are shitty people out there that have abused their power but there's also no denying that money can make people say lots of things l.
The problem is that handwaving sexual assault accusations by saying "they probably just want a settlement" discourages people from coming forward. It also encourages people in positions of power to abuse it.

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How is this case blown out of proportion? He literally admitted to using his professional standing to invite girls to his room so he could masturbate in front of them.
Yeah, Louis CK's is a bit unique in that he did admit to it (eventually).
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Old 11-15-2017, 04:01 PM
Shekinah Shekinah is offline

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I don't know who's more disgusting now, Moore or his lawyer.
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Old 11-15-2017, 04:27 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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I don't know who's more disgusting now, Moore or his lawyer.
Ehh.

Both? Americas continued pass on child brides in certain areas is fucked, and shouldnt be defended.

But like, still.

If white people are to be held accountable for the sins of colonialism, regardless of nation, time period, etc, isnt the same true?

Should, by the laws of social justice, the indian man born in Canada benefit from his background linked to ethnic and racial identity?

Or are people individuals independant of them?

Ofc, the answer is somewhere between the two.
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Old 11-15-2017, 04:39 PM
Shekinah Shekinah is offline

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Um, okay. I was more referring to the way Moore's lawyer defended him in the MSNBC interview.

Fuck, two existing members of Congress already have accusations of sexual harassment (hands going where they shouldn't, comments that should stay unsaid, etc.). It used to be that women and teenage girls were told that if you want to succeed, you have to put up with a lot, and now women are saying that they shouldn't have to put up with that stuff. And they're right.

So, what's going to be done about it? What should be done about it? Is there a right way to handle it? There are certainly wrong ways.
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Old 11-15-2017, 05:40 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Old 11-15-2017, 06:27 PM
Shekinah Shekinah is offline

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Burn them all.
You're just saying that because of all the spiderwebs we burned in WoW.
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Old 11-15-2017, 06:36 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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You're just saying that because of all the spiderwebs we burned in WoW.
Not JUST because of that...

Maybe MOSTLY...
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  #11437  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:36 AM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is offline

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How is this case blown out of proportion? He literally admitted to using his professional standing to invite girls to his room so he could masturbate in front of them.
They weren't forced though? He asked and they said yes. As far as I know even the women he did this to never said he threatened them or anything. Dude's a fucking weirdo and all but the way people distance themselves from and talk about him like he's in the same category as Kevin Spacey and the other accused people is ridiculous.

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The main issue with multiple people and rich people is always the part where you just know several of those people just want in on the settlement. There's no denying that there are shitty people out there that have abused their power but there's also no denying that money can make people say lots of things l.
Yeah, and especially now when it's open season on exposing famous people, it's the perfect time for it. And even accusations that will never be proven will still have done their damage to people's careers, due process or not.
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  #11438  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:31 AM
Shekinah Shekinah is offline

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I mean, asking a woman if you can make a sexual advantage when they just want to talk about comedy or if they just want to know if they're talented enough is a shitty thing to do. It's not assault, no, and I'm glad he never forced himself on anyone, but it's still not okay. Definitely not on the same page as assault.

My keyboard doesn't want me to type "assault" anymore, so I'll stop now. Still, it's like when Hulk Hogan was being treated the same as Chris Benoit when a video of him saying the n word came out. Hogan may be racist/bigoted, but he's not a murderer. Louis CK may be a pervert, but he's not a rapist.
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Old 11-16-2017, 08:43 AM
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They weren't forced though? He asked and they said yes. As far as I know even the women he did this to never said he threatened them or anything. Dude's a fucking weirdo and all but the way people distance themselves from and talk about him like he's in the same category as Kevin Spacey and the other accused people is ridiculous.

You need to think about how coercion works, my friend.

Lewis was in a position of power over those women. Refusal on their part would be detrimental to their careers. There's no way that's OK under any circumstance.

And now we have another virtue-signaling lefty going down in flames, with the news of Al Franken's assault...

All male feminists are closet rapists.
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Old 11-16-2017, 08:55 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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All male feminists are closet rapists.
Just like everyone trying to keep MtF transexuals out of female bathrooms to protect the children are closet child rapists, right?

I think it's interesting to watch the different reactions from the far-right and center-right (colloquially "the right" and "the left"). When someone with an R next to their name is accused, excuses are made by their supporters and attempts are made to discredit the accuser. When someone with a D next to their name (or a vocal supporter of them) is accused, the reaction of their supporters is to take out the trash.

As for Franken, he has made a comment about it.
"I certainly don’t remember the rehearsal for the skit in the same way, but I send my sincerest apologies to Leeann. As to the photo, it was clearly intended to be funny but wasn't. I shouldn't have done it."
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...ped-her-244976

Ironically enough, Mitch "the Bitch" McConnell is calling for an Ethics Committee investigation. You know, the one that the GOP gutted.
And if anyone is curious, here's the picture:

(Yes, she's wearing ceramic plate body armor which he's apparently not even touching)
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Old 11-16-2017, 09:29 AM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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Just like everyone trying to keep MtF transexuals out of female bathrooms to protect the children are closet child rapists, right?

I think it's interesting to watch the different reactions from the far-right and center-right (colloquially "the right" and "the left"). When someone with an R next to their name is accused, excuses are made by their supporters and attempts are made to discredit the accuser. When someone with a D next to their name (or a vocal supporter of them) is accused, the reaction of their supporters is to take out the trash.

As for Franken, he has made a comment about it.
"I certainly don’t remember the rehearsal for the skit in the same way, but I send my sincerest apologies to Leeann. As to the photo, it was clearly intended to be funny but wasn't. I shouldn't have done it."
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...ped-her-244976

Ironically enough, Mitch "the Bitch" McConnell is calling for an Ethics Committee investigation. You know, the one that the GOP gutted.
And if anyone is curious, here's the picture:

(Yes, she's wearing ceramic plate body armor.)
In Franken's case, the "take out the trash" stance is perfectly safe - Franken leaves, a Democratic governor in MN makes the appointed replacement, and the special election will likely result in a Democratic replacement. Democrats lose nothing by sacrificing Franken at the altar of moral superiority in this particular case.

Moore's accuser is highly suspect, and the timing is particularly inconvenient for the Republicans, as a seat that would otherwise be perfectly secure is made vulnerable due to the fact that the election is pending and it is far too late to get another candidate on the ballot.

Apples and oranges, pal...
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Old 11-16-2017, 09:34 AM
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Can My Children Be Friends With White People?


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My oldest son, wrestling with a 4-year-old’s happy struggles, is trying to clarify how many people can be his best friend. “My best friends are you and Mama and my brother and …” But even a child’s joy is not immune to this ominous political period. This summer’s images of violence in Charlottesville, Va., prompted an array of questions. “Some people hate others because they are different,” I offer, lamely. A childish but distinct panic enters his voice. “But I’m not different.”

It is impossible to convey the mixture of heartbreak and fear I feel for him. Donald Trump’s election has made it clear that I will teach my boys the lesson generations old, one that I for the most part nearly escaped. I will teach them to be cautious, I will teach them suspicion, and I will teach them distrust. Much sooner than I thought I would, I will have to discuss with my boys whether they can truly be friends with white people.

Meaningful friendship is not just a feeling. It is not simply being able to share a beer. Real friendship is impossible without the ability to trust others, without knowing that your well-being is important to them. The desire to create, maintain or wield power over others destroys the possibility of friendship. The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.’s famous dream of black and white children holding hands was a dream precisely because he realized that in Alabama, conditions of dominance made real friendship between white and black people impossible.

History has provided little reason for people of color to trust white people in this way, and these recent months have put in the starkest relief the contempt with which the country measures the value of racial minorities. America is transfixed on the opioid epidemic among white Americans (who often get hooked after being overprescribed painkillers — while studies show that doctors underprescribe pain medication for African-Americans). But when black lives were struck by addiction, we cordoned off minority communities with the police and threw away an entire generation of black and Hispanic men.

Likewise, despite centuries of exclusion and robust evidence of continuing racism, minority underemployment is often couched in the language of bad choices and personal responsibility. When systemic joblessness strikes swaths of white America, we get an entire presidential campaign centered on globalization’s impact on the white working class. Even the nerve of some rich or visible African-Americans to protest that America, in its laws and in its police, has rarely been just to all has been met with the howls of a president who cannot tolerate that the lucky and the uppity do not stay in their place.

As against our gauzy national hopes, I will teach my boys to have profound doubts that friendship with white people is possible. When they ask, I will teach my sons that their beautiful hue is a fault line. Spare me platitudes of how we are all the same on the inside. I first have to keep my boys safe, and so I will teach them before the world shows them this particular brand of rending, violent, often fatal betrayal.

Let me assure you that my heartbreak dwarfs my anger. I grew up in a classic Midwestern college town. With all its American faults, it was a diverse and happy-childhood kind of place, slightly dull in the way that parents wish for their children. If race showed in class lines, school cliques and being pulled over more often, our little Americana lacked the deep racial tension and mistrust that seem so hard to escape now.

What’s surprising is that I am heartbroken at all. It is only for African-Americans who grew up in such a place that watching Mr. Trump is so disorienting. For many weary minorities, the ridiculous thing was thinking friendship was possible in the first place. It hurts only if you believed friendship could bridge the racial gorge.

Of course, the rise of this president has broken bonds on all sides. But for people of color the stakes are different. Imagining we can now be friends across this political line is asking us to ignore our safety and that of our children, to abandon personal regard and self-worth. Only white people can cordon off Mr. Trump’s political meaning, ignore the “unpleasantness” from a position of safety. His election and the year that has followed have fixed the awful thought in my mind too familiar to black Americans: “You can’t trust these people.”

It is not Mr. Trump himself who has done this. Were it not for our reverence for money, Mr. Trump would be easily recognized as the simple-minded, vulgar, bigoted blowhard he is. It is certainly not the neo-Nazis marching on Charlottesville; we have seen their type before. Rather, what has truly broken my heart are the ranks of Mr. Trump’s many allies and apologists.

Mr. Trump’s supporters are practiced at purposeful blindness. That his political life started with denying, without evidence, that Barack Obama is American — that this black man could truly be the legitimate president — is simply ignored. So, too, is his history of housing discrimination, his casual conflation of Muslims with terrorists, his reducing Mexican-Americans to murderers and rapists. All along, his allies have watched racial pornography, describing black America as pathological. Yet they deny that there is any malice whatsoever in his words and actions. And they dismiss any attempt to recognize the danger of his wide-ranging animus as political correctness.

But the deepest rift is with the apologists, the “good” Trump voters, the white people who understand that Mr. Trump says “unfortunate” things but support him because they like what he says on jobs and taxes. They bristle at the accusation that they supported racism, insisting they had to ignore Mr. Trump’s ugliness. Relying on everyday decency as a shield, they are befuddled at the chill that now separates them from black people in their offices and social circles. They protest: Have they ever said anything racist? Don’t they shovel the sidewalk of the new black neighbors? Surely, they say, politics — a single vote — does not mean we can’t be friends.

I do not write this with liberal condescension or glee. My heart is unbearably heavy when I assure you we cannot be friends.

The same is true, unfortunately, of those who hold no quarter for Mr. Trump but insist that black people need to do the reaching out, the moderating, the accommodating. Imagine the white friend during the civil rights era who disliked blacks’ being beaten to death but wished the whole thing would just settle down. However likable, you could not properly describe her as a friend. Sometimes politics makes demands on the soul.

Don’t misunderstand: White Trump supporters and people of color can like one another. But real friendship? Mr. Trump’s bruised ego invents outrageous claims of voter fraud, not caring that this rhetoric was built upon dogs and water hoses set on black children and even today the relentless effort to silence black voices. His macho talk about “law and order” does not keep communities safe and threatens the very bodies of the little boys I love. No amount of shoveled snow makes it all right, and too many imagine they can have it both ways. It is this desperation to reap the rewards of white power without being so much as indicted that James Baldwin recognized as America’s criminal innocence.

For African-Americans, race has become a proxy not just for politics but also for decency. White faces are swept together, ominous anxiety behind every chance encounter at the airport or smiling white cashier. If they are not clearly allies, they will seem unsafe to me.

Barack Obama’s farewell address encouraged us to reach across partisan lines. But there is a difference between disagreeing over taxes and negotiating one’s place in America, the bodies of your children, your humanity. Our racial wound has undone love and families, and ignoring the depths of the gash will not cause it to heal.

We can still all pretend we are friends. If meaningful civic friendship is impossible, we can make do with mere civility — sharing drinks and watching the game. Indeed, even in Donald Trump’s America, I have not given up on being friends with all white people. My bi-ethnic wife, my most trusted friend, understands she is seen as a white woman, even though her brother and father are not. Among my dearest friends, the wedding party and children’s godparents variety, many are white. But these are the friends who have marched in protest, rushed to airports to protest the president’s travel ban, people who have shared the risks required by strength and decency.

There is hope, though. Implicitly, without meaning to, Mr. Trump asks us if this is the best we can do. It falls to us to do better. We cannot agree on our politics, but we can declare that we stand beside one another against cheap attack and devaluation; that we live together and not simply beside one another. In the coming years, when my boys ask again their questions about who can be their best friend, I pray for a more hopeful answer.
If it is too long and you did not read it: No, because Donald Trump has instituted pre-civil rights era power dynamics (where just like your boss propositioning you for sex, there is always a level of threat and coercion), but if you were friends with him already and are submissive towards this author, he will make an exception where are you can be friends with him, but not his children.
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Old 11-16-2017, 10:05 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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In Franken's case, the "take out the trash" stance is perfectly safe - Franken leaves, a Democratic governor in MN makes the appointed replacement, and the special election will likely result in a Democratic replacement. Democrats lose nothing by sacrificing Franken at the altar of moral superiority in this particular case.

Moore's accuser is highly suspect, and the timing is particularly inconvenient for the Republicans, as a seat that would otherwise be perfectly secure is made vulnerable due to the fact that the election is pending and it is far too late to get another candidate on the ballot.

Apples and oranges, pal...
You seem to be backwards. Franken's accuser is already lying as you can tell by the picture, and he's gaining popularity as a potential runner for president.
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Old 11-16-2017, 10:24 AM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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You seem to be backwards. Franken's accuser is already lying as you can tell by the picture, and he's gaining popularity as a potential runner for president.
I fail to see how the picture does anything but prove the allegation... Are you seriously saying what Franken did there was OK?

I'd laugh at the notion of Franken being president, but I remember how much Democrats revere the pig Bill Clinton in spite of his boorish behavior.
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Old 11-16-2017, 10:28 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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I fail to see how the picture does anything but prove the allegation... Are you seriously saying what Franken did there was OK?
She claims that picture is him groping her. While a bit on the creepy side (and obviously a bad joke), you can clearly see he's not touching her.
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Old 11-16-2017, 10:34 AM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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She claims that picture is him groping her. While a bit on the creepy side (and obviously a bad joke), you can clearly see he's not touching her.
She's asleep. At best, it was a sexualized joke made at her expense without her consent. It's fucking humiliating. If someone had done that to my wife/daughter/sister/mother they'd be in for an ass kicking.

But, hey, I'd love it if the DNC ran him for President. Really. That'd be outstanding.
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Old 11-16-2017, 10:40 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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She's asleep. At best, it was a sexualized joke made at her expense without her consent. It's fucking humiliating. If someone had done that to my wife/daughter/sister/mother they'd be in for an ass kicking.

But, hey, I'd love it if the DNC ran him for President. Really. That'd be outstanding.
Like I say, it's a dumb, creepy joke and even he admits it was a bad idea. She's clearly exaggerating by miles by saying she was groped, though, and that's an event we have photo evidence of. Makes you question the validity of her claim that we don't have evidence of.
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Old 11-16-2017, 11:07 AM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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I for one welcome the segregationist future, provided it is not enforced by the state. If so, then it can go fuck itself.
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Old 11-16-2017, 11:52 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Anyone want to hazard a guess as to how Roger Stone knew about this hours before that woman's blog post and appearance on that radio show?

Here's Franken's full response:


She has accepted his apology.
http://thehill.com/homenews/news/360...ts-his-apology

Russian twitter bots & propagandists apparently went apeshit over it all, unsurprisingly.
https://imgur.com/a/dXhH4
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Old 11-16-2017, 04:21 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,098

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taintedmage View Post
I for one welcome the segregationist future, provided it is not enforced by the state. If so, then it can go fuck itself.
I doubt you want that.
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