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  #151  
Old 06-26-2019, 04:41 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Considering that Scourge-made night elf dark rangers should logically exist from the invasion of Kalimdor during the Third War, having a night elf skin for the neutral hero for multiplayer is zero issue and makes sense lorewise. The mistake of switching the skin with the archer model for the web graphic is unfortunate, but nothing worth a second glance.
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  #152  
Old 06-26-2019, 06:43 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Considering that Scourge-made night elf dark rangers should logically exist from the invasion of Kalimdor during the Third War, having a night elf skin for the neutral hero for multiplayer is zero issue and makes sense lorewise. The mistake of switching the skin with the archer model for the web graphic is unfortunate, but nothing worth a second glance.
As I said before:

p.s. To those of you who are about to argue about how Night Elf Dark Rangers totally make sense in Warcraft III, I see you typing already. Your theories don't address why this angers me, and if you think they will, then you're just as out of touch as Blizzard.
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  #153  
Old 06-26-2019, 06:54 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I was not stating this to address your emotions, those are your own problem and do not concern me, but to address the notion this could be objectivelly an issue as presented by IGoD.

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  #154  
Old 06-26-2019, 07:44 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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I was not stating this to address your emotions, those are your own problem and do not concern me, but to address the notion this could be objectivelly an issue as presented by IGoD.
They aren't just mine - and this is where the issue comes from. Night Elf Dark Rangers were extremely poorly received in general, and they're releasing this right off of the heels of that controversy. Whether you can headcanon them into existing is beside the point. The point is them doubling down on the poor decisions they made in 8.1 of WoW, and trying to force the concept through anyway to communities that mostly already rejected it.
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  #155  
Old 06-26-2019, 08:07 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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We are not talking about an RPG here, so the entire argument about players feeling bad because they identify with their avatars has no grounds there. This is an RTS, something that should be full of crushing and tragic developments, so the only thing that matters is se sensibility and resource allocation. The more sensible graphic assets we get, the better, not just for variety and worldbuilding, but also for map making, saves much effort. Ideally, we should also get dwarf death knight skins, night elf banshee skins, and so on.

Also, numbers have nothing to do with objectivity, so nothing relevant in that regard.
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  #156  
Old 06-26-2019, 09:00 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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We are not talking about an RPG here, so the entire argument about players feeling bad because they identify with their avatars has no grounds there. This is an RTS, something that should be full of crushing and tragic developments, so the only thing that matters is se sensibility and resource allocation. The more sensible graphic assets we get, the better, not just for variety and worldbuilding, but also for map making, saves much effort. Ideally, we should also get dwarf death knight skins, night elf banshee skins, and so on.

Also, numbers have nothing to do with objectivity, so nothing relevant in that regard.
The developments are already set, and there is no reason to implement a change like this but to call to recent developments in the MMO, which again, are under fire, and under fire for a very good reason.

It's just more salt in an open wound, and I'm not sure what your attachment to it is.


Edit: I will add this - if countering the post-hoc headcanon is important to you: http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutral/darkranger.shtml

This IS a revision. Dark Rangers were raised by Arthas, were exclusively from Quel'thalas, and the time, and were the children of his personal frustration with Sylvanas. By the time Arthas even gets to Kalimdor, he's interested in stymying the Legion, not raising dark rangers for them - and we certainly don't see them turn up in the Frozen Throne campaign.

This isn't a loophole, it's a retcon, and the reasons for it appear to be that they are trying to justify the awful decision they made in 8.1 of WoW.
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  #157  
Old 06-26-2019, 09:26 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Yes, the developments are already set. They are set so that dozens of hero and normal units get new skins and models where it makes sense to increase variety. We are getting female dreadlords, archmages, completely new paladin models, hundreds of new assets. The night elf skin for the dark ranger hero is but one of these. That is why it exists. It is no unique thing.

EDIT: There is no retcon still. First of all, the BN text mentions nothing of Arthas. Second of all, this sort of text has never been absolute, otherwise all banshees would have to be night elven, all blademasters of the Burning Blade Clan, and so on. Dismissed.

Last edited by Marthen; 06-26-2019 at 09:46 AM..
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  #158  
Old 06-26-2019, 10:49 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Yes, the developments are already set. They are set so that dozens of hero and normal units get new skins and models where it makes sense to increase variety. We are getting female dreadlords, archmages, completely new paladin models, hundreds of new assets. The night elf skin for the dark ranger hero is but one of these. That is why it exists. It is no unique thing.

EDIT: There is no retcon still. First of all, the BN text mentions nothing of Arthas. Second of all, this sort of text has never been absolute, otherwise all banshees would have to be night elven, all blademasters of the Burning Blade Clan, and so on. Dismissed.
It didn't mention the lineage of Dark Rangers, I did. What it mentions is that Dark Rangers are from Quel'thalas, full stop. If you're simply ignoring that, as well as their origins and their development up until 8.1, it would seem to me that you are just looking for any reason to justify them, regardless of what the lore is. Aggressively so, given that you've come down here to argue with me about it.

So if you simply WANT them, then tell me why? Why are you so invested in Night Elf dark rangers?
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  #159  
Old 06-26-2019, 11:13 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I have not come here to argue with you, like I said, I came here to respond to IGoD's inquiry. And I have already explained how are these texts only informative, not absolute. To provide another example, the liches are described as former orc warlocks and shaman in the manual, yet we know of human liches starting with Kel'Thuzad. That does not make it a retcon, it is just expanding upon the former origin. Same with having a few Scourge raised dark rangers from Kalimdor existing next to the original bunch from Quel'Thalas. It makes sense and hurts nothing in an RTS game, only provides more assets and variety and potential stories.
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  #160  
Old 06-26-2019, 06:57 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I have not come here to argue with you, like I said, I came here to respond to IGoD's inquiry. And I have already explained how are these texts only informative, not absolute. To provide another example, the liches are described as former orc warlocks and shaman in the manual, yet we know of human liches starting with Kel'Thuzad. That does not make it a retcon, it is just expanding upon the former origin. Same with having a few Scourge raised dark rangers from Kalimdor existing next to the original bunch from Quel'Thalas. It makes sense and hurts nothing in an RTS game, only provides more assets and variety and potential stories.
The matter about liches is at worst, an update, not a flat out retcon, which again, this is. So again, it looks like you're reaching in order to defend that post-hoc headcanon. Of course as I mentioned before, my bigger issue is in rolling this out in an apparent attempt to defend what they did in 8.1, which speaks loudly to larger fears about what other retcons they will impose.

I'm not sure why you're so invested in this - and given your replies so far I doubt I will ever know, but I maintain that it's an awful thing to bring about - and reason enough to give a hard pass to reforged.
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  #161  
Old 06-26-2019, 11:46 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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The problem here isn't whether that Dark Rangers would make sense or not.

The problem is how it makes Night Elf fans feel.

Just like Overspark in 8.2. His personality there makes sense to me and I welcome it as a change of pace in the bigger picture that is the Gnome race's portrayal.

However a few people don't like it especially because it doesn't feels satisfactory to them, which for them would be the most important thing in a story.

I think we're reaching a point of no-return, in entertainment in general, where a product is criticized by not being satisfactory enough for a group of people, when the hardest thing is actually pleasing all different sides. This issue has always existed, but this is the first time people can express their opinions so visibly, loudly, and financially.
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  #162  
Old 06-27-2019, 12:38 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I have explained how this is not a retcon and provided several examples of how these texts are never absolute in their meaning. I have also explained this is no unique tging but part of a large effort to bring in hundreds new assets. There is very little of actual information value I can add beyond that, and I am not interested in debating biases and emotions, so that will be all from me.
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  #163  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:07 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
The problem here isn't whether that Dark Rangers would make sense or not.

The problem is how it makes Night Elf fans feel.

Just like Overspark in 8.2. His personality there makes sense to me and I welcome it as a change of pace in the bigger picture that is the Gnome race's portrayal.

However a few people don't like it especially because it doesn't feels satisfactory to them, which for them would be the most important thing in a story.

I think we're reaching a point of no-return, in entertainment in general, where a product is criticized by not being satisfactory enough for a group of people, when the hardest thing is actually pleasing all different sides. This issue has always existed, but this is the first time people can express their opinions so visibly, loudly, and financially.
The issue has always existed because the audience has always existed. The very first thing that writers in any discipline are told is to consider that audience - or audiences. You can crow about it, but writers, just like people in any profession, serve markets. When they fail to do that, they suffer financially.

That's how it's always been. That's how it should be. That's the free market. If developers, writers, and marketing professionals weren't prepared for that, they should have gone into a different profession.

To Marthen: I find your claim that the texts aren't absolute unconvincing, and I demonstrated how your examples don't address the present situation (updates versus retroactive changes). Again, I don't know why you like Night Elf dark rangers so much, but they did engage in a retcon in this case to get there.
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  #164  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:35 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I assume you are talking about writing for games, films, etc Kyalin, as when it comes to belles lettres (in its original meaning), it absolutely should not work like that. You don't craft art to be profitable, you craft it for its beauty. If people find it appealing enough to pay you, good, if not, it does not matter, it is not its purpose.

Also, since you have failed to address how the existence of a human lich is merely an update despite the manual saying the liches were orc warlocks and shaman while claiming that the existence of a night elf dark ranger is a retcon despite battle.net saying that dark rangers were high elf rangers, you have zero ground. You canʼt arbitrary change what is an update and what is a retcon, there need be consistency.

Edit: Since it seems to have been lost in the lines, I will reiterate upon my asset point. The matter is not dark rangers per se, it is all the assets that are arriving with Reforged. Personally, I welcome all the variety in multiplayer and worldbuilding I can get, and as a map maker, the more models and skins at my disposal, the better. Fan made models exist in hundreds (including various types of dark rangers), but their quality is inconsistent, and I presume it will be even worse with Reforged's levels of graphics.

Last edited by Marthen; 06-27-2019 at 09:53 AM..
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  #165  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:54 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I assume you are talking about writing for games, films, etc Kyalin, as when it comes to belles lettres (in its original meaning), it absolutely should not work like that. You don't craft art to be profitable, you craft it for its beauty. If people find it appealing enough to pay you, good, if not, it does not matter, it is not its purpose.

Also, since you have failed to address how the existence of a human lich is merely an update despite the manual saying the liches were orc warlocks and shaman while claiming that the existence of a night elf dark ranger is a retcon despite battle.net saying that dark rangers were high elf rangers, you have zero ground. You canʼt arbitrary change what is an update and what is a retcon, there need be consistency.
If you're creating a story for yourself, the first paragraph applies. If you are using Shareholder resources and taking a salary, it absolutely does not. If you are consistently underperforming, it is no grave injustice if you're escorted out of the building with your belongings in an Iron Mountain box. You are there to serve the company, not yourself.

Otherwise, if you want to write a fanfiction on your own time and on your own dime? Knock yourself out.

I agree as well that there does need to be consistency. That's why I don't equate "this exists now, even though it didn't before" with "this has always existed even though we said previously that it didn't because now we want to justify a bad decision that we made in another game". I don't know how you regard the two cases as comparable, or again, why you are so adamant about having Night Elf dark rangers.
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  #166  
Old 06-27-2019, 10:49 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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You can write literature without working for a company or writing fanfiction. I would not say Tolkien was writing his work for profit, yet neither would I call it fanfiction.

And again, you are ignoring the fact the manual was saying the liches are only orc warlocks and shaman. It is exactly this exists now even though we said it did not before. But we are going in circles now, and like I said, I am not thrilled to debate biases.
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  #167  
Old 06-27-2019, 12:00 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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You can write literature without working for a company or writing fanfiction. I would not say Tolkien was writing his work for profit, yet neither would I call it fanfiction.
Yes, but we are not talking about a self-employed author. We're talking about writers who are taking a salary from one of the biggest video game companies in the world.

Quote:
And again, you are ignoring the fact the manual was saying the liches are only orc warlocks and shaman. It is exactly this exists now even though we said it did not before. But we are going in circles now, and like I said, I am not thrilled to debate biases.
I'm not ignoring it at all. I'm saying that when you establish that X was the case, and then introduce Y in later content (or in this case, wasn't it the same property?) that's a very different thing from saying that Y was always the case, seventeen or so years after you said that X was the case.

This is the difference between "we just declared war on Eastasia" and "we have always been at war with Eastasia". The former is an update. The latter is a retcon.
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  #168  
Old 06-27-2019, 12:16 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Kyalin, it's not a retcon.. How would the Dark Ranger case be, but not the lich and banshee one?
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  #169  
Old 06-27-2019, 12:24 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
If you're creating a story for yourself, the first paragraph applies. If you are using Shareholder resources and taking a salary, it absolutely does not.
Artists back in the day were financed by patronage. How is this any different?
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  #170  
Old 06-27-2019, 12:59 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Kyalin, it's not a retcon.. How would the Dark Ranger case be, but not the lich and banshee one?
I had to go back and refresh my memory on the two entries, and in each case my opinion hasn't changed. They described the history behind the unit, but they did not preclude the ability of the scourge to create new units in the campaigns themselves. Again, the introduction of those units constituted updates, much in the way that the introduction of Night Elf Dark Rangers in 8.1 did. The manuals, both Reign of Chaos entries, came first. Then there were additions.

I'll put a pin here in the fact that the Dark Ranger was a Frozen Throne addition - which necessarily happened both after the invasion of Quel'thalas, and the Battle of Mount Hyjal.

There were then no presentations or even hints of Night Elf Dark Rangers until 2019 - not for lack of undead Night Elves either - some became Death Knights. Then we see a different team turn up and force them in.

So again, we're dealing with a retcon - likely being used to justify their awful decisions in 8.1.

Edit: @Krainz

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Artists back in the day were financed by patronage. How is this any different?
Because governments and their sub-entities (like Lords and their respective holdings) have vastly different objectives from for-profit entities. Although that being said, if the patron didn't like the artist, I'm pretty sure the artist had to find a new patron or starve.
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  #171  
Old 06-27-2019, 02:59 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Because governments and their sub-entities (like Lords and their respective holdings) have vastly different objectives from for-profit entities. Although that being said, if the patron didn't like the artist, I'm pretty sure the artist had to find a new patron or starve.
Which is essentially what Marthen said. While they appreciated the art, they paid for it.

On a completely separate note, how would you feel, Kyalin, if it was revealed that the reason Tyrande isn't facing Azshara in 8.2 is because this is only round 1 and she will be frigging everywhere in round 2? And that the whole reason Blizzard decided to burn Teldrassil was to give the Night Elves (and Tyrande) a reason to brace themselves and get stronger (like the Night Warrior transformation) in order to face Azshara in the final round?

Just curious.
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  #172  
Old 06-27-2019, 04:04 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Which is essentially what Marthen said. While they appreciated the art, they paid for it.

On a completely separate note, how would you feel, Kyalin, if it was revealed that the reason Tyrande isn't facing Azshara in 8.2 is because this is only round 1 and she will be frigging everywhere in round 2? And that the whole reason Blizzard decided to burn Teldrassil was to give the Night Elves (and Tyrande) a reason to brace themselves and get stronger (like the Night Warrior transformation) in order to face Azshara in the final round?

Just curious.
I think her being absent in 8.2 would be more than acceptable if someone came out and said "that line about her getting her revenge for the Night Elves in 8.1 was a mistake. She's not in Nazjatar because she's fighting the Horde back home, will continue doing so, and we have future content planned for that". Someone mentioned on the SF, and I agree, that the problem isn't just that she's absent - it's that it looks like her entire story is over.
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  #173  
Old 06-27-2019, 04:27 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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I think her being absent in 8.2 would be more than acceptable if someone came out and said "that line about her getting her revenge for the Night Elves in 8.1 was a mistake. She's not in Nazjatar because she's fighting the Horde back home, will continue doing so, and we have future content planned for that". Someone mentioned on the SF, and I agree, that the problem isn't just that she's absent - it's that it looks like her entire story is over.
What are your thoughts and feelings on a round two and the suggested reasoning behind the tree?
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  #174  
Old 06-27-2019, 05:13 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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What are your thoughts and feelings on a round two and the suggested reasoning behind the tree?
Given that it continues a rather annoying trend of the Night Elves being unstoppable against "world threats", but being next to useless whenever they go fight the Horde, I'm not a fan. The rivalry matters, and there's nothing to be proud of if the Night Elves fail constantly when the Horde is the opposing side.
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Old 06-28-2019, 12:50 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Kyalin, you were making a broad, general statement about writing and I simply clarified it does not apply absolutely. There was no "but we are specifically talking about...".

Anyway, since you still seem to miss that my examples were supposed to show the battle.net text is not absolute, and I am not sure if it is me not conveying it properly, so let me reiterate. Do you consider the existence of dwarf and elf death knights from the Third War a retcon since the manual described them as formerly humans? Do you consider the existence of non-human and female necromancers from the Third War a retcon since the manual described them as men of Dalaran? Do you consider the existence of non-Burning Blade blademasters a retcon since the manual describes them as part of it?

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