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  #1126  
Old 10-24-2011, 11:48 PM
Porimlys Porimlys is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
He's nowhere near the same as Garrosh, and the developers have made this clear.
But all the other things the developers make clear in their writing is ignored when they don't work in tandem with your arguments

I feel like this argument comes down to "You're defending Garrosh as a character? YOU MUST BE EVIL AND WRONG."
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  #1127  
Old 10-24-2011, 11:48 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
Thrall and the Horde are in no place to speak of diplomacy.

He's been rude, undiplomatic, and borderline with everyone except Jaina.

Even in Wrath, when Alliance offered AID to the Horde, he essentially told the Alliance to get the hell out.
Yeah, and the Horde excepted the aid. Until Varien acted like a total dickcheese and blamed everything on Thrall. Than declared war on the Horde. Thrall was always in those meetings to try to keep Garrosh under control, and would have succeeded if not for Varien being a colossal dick.
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  #1128  
Old 10-24-2011, 11:50 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Yes, I did explain it. He can't be everywhere at once and we're talking about a token number of civilians. And he can't tell the Forsaken what to do.

Regardless, he says he doesn't want to kill civilians, that means he doesn't WANT to kill civilians. But wanting something and making it a reality (while fighting a war effort especially) is a very different matter.
He left a frigging Overlord with the Forsaken for the express purpose of making sure that they don't defy the Warchief's will.

Not only did this Overlord not bat an eyelash at what the Forsaken were doing, he actively assisted in it. Unless you're going to argue that it's because this Orc doesn't actually serve Garrosh, then he absolutely condones everything that the Forsaken have been doing.

He can say "Oh, I don't want to kill civilians!" all he wants, but so far, it's been nothing but lies.

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I don't know anything about Alliance slaves. And that still has nothing to do with him killing civilians or not, enslaving civilians is not the same as killing them.

BUT I'M A HORDE FANBOY, SO I MUST BE DEFENDING GARROSH, RIGHT?

...okay I'm done with that.
What makes enslaving a population better than killing them again? And you basically just admitted that as far as Garrosh is concerned, any non-Horde are going to end up as either slaves or corpses. He's such a nice guy!

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Yeah, and the Horde excepted the aid. Until Varien acted like a total dickcheese and blamed everything on Thrall. Than declared war on the Horde. Thrall was always in those meetings to try to keep Garrosh under control, and would have succeeded if not for Varien being a colossal dick.
Except you're wrong.

In the meeting in Theramore in the comics, Varian and Thrall meet on equitable terms (despite Garrosh proclaiming that he wants to conquer Kalimdor and the presence of Varian's former master as Thrall's aide) and it was Garrosh who was trying desperately to throw a wrench into negotiations so that he can have his war.

In Orgrimmar, Jaina came wanting an explanation and Thrall told her to piss off and that it's a Horde issue. Varian was absolutely correct to blame everything on Thrall, because Thrall was the Warchief, and as such was responsible for what occurred under his command, including the Apothecarium and the Wrathgate Massacre.
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  #1129  
Old 10-24-2011, 11:50 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
Yeah, and the Horde excepted the aid. Until Varien acted like a total dickcheese and blamed everything on Thrall. Than declared war on the Horde. Thrall was always in those meetings to try to keep Garrosh under control, and would have succeeded if not for Varien being a colossal dick.
No they didn't. The Horde turned down the offer of aid, and Varian responded with a fine, we will reclaim Undercity. We won't ever get a better chance.

The Alliance and Horde attacks were two separate plans that happened (I.E. plot device) to occur at the same time. They were not coordinated. They were not planned. They just happened.
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  #1130  
Old 10-24-2011, 11:52 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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This was against Thrall, who had offered this filthy brute peace, and than threatened his life at a peace conferance. Varien isn't better than Garrosh, he's the same. Deal with it.
Ugh, I hate stepping in here but to defend Varian's character a bit he DID apologize for his over exaggerated tone in ICC. Also another thing to note, Thrall really likes Varian. When they met at the Peace Summit that's exactly what he told Jaina I do believe. So much that he would lay Doomhammer at Varian's feet. And Varian doesn't threaten to mount his own people's heads on the pike if they make a mistake either. I'm not white washing Varian at all and I think he's done some pretty fucked up things before, but I definitely prefer him as a leader over Garrosh at this particular point in time.

Personally, I like Varian. He's an intense guy and his reactions to how things happen can be pretty sympathetic imo. That's what sets the tone for Warcraft because there's no right or wrong decisions to certain things. He doesn't owe the Orcs anything, and I don't mind seeing him through this war that's collaborating in the next expansion. Let's see some blood spilled on the pavement for this one expansion without any holds bar lectures from the higher up neutrals.
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  #1131  
Old 10-24-2011, 11:52 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
He left a frigging Overlord with the Forsaken for the express purpose of making sure that they don't defy the Warchief's will.

Not only did this Overlord not bat an eyelash at what the Forsaken were doing, he actively assisted in it. Unless you're going to argue that it's because this Orc doesn't actually serve Garrosh, then he absolutely condones everything that the Forsaken have been doing.

He can say "Oh, I don't want to kill civilians!" all he wants, but so far, it's been nothing but lies.



What makes enslaving a population better than killing them again? And you basically just admitted that as far as Garrosh is concerned, any non-Horde are going to end up as either slaves or corpses. He's such a nice guy!
U mad?
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  #1132  
Old 10-24-2011, 11:53 PM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
Yeah, and the Horde excepted the aid. Until Varien acted like a total dickcheese and blamed everything on Thrall. Than declared war on the Horde. Thrall was always in those meetings to try to keep Garrosh under control, and would have succeeded if not for Varien being a colossal dick.
What..?

Thrall told Jaina to buzz off, the Horde would handle it.

Varian was like "Ahhh Hell naw, letting the Horde handle it was what caused this shit!"

and then invaded the Undercity, and got to see all of the crap that goes down in the Apothecarium. What the Horde was allowing to happen.

Then, when he sees all this, hears the leader of the Horde yelling. He goes after the man that is responsible for this. As the leader of the Horde, he is responsible for what his underlings in it do. (Sylvanas is his underling, whatever some of you may think.)

Really, Thrall didn't even know his way around the Undercity. It's a completely incompetent that he didn't even check out what a race of zombies he allied with where doing.
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  #1133  
Old 10-24-2011, 11:53 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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U mad?
U have no argument? Didn't think so.
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  #1134  
Old 10-24-2011, 11:55 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
No they didn't. The Horde turned down the offer of aid, and Varian responded with a fine, we will reclaim Undercity. We won't ever get a better chance.

The Alliance and Horde attacks were two separate plans that happened (I.E. plot device) to occur at the same time. They were not coordinated. They were not planned. They just happened.
Oh, THAT. I thought you meant aid of supplies, or fighting the Scourge. He should of staid the fuck out of it and done what was prudent.
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  #1135  
Old 10-24-2011, 11:56 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Oh, THAT. I thought you meant aid of supplies, or fighting the Scourge. He should of staid the fuck out of it and done what was prudent.
The massacre of an entire army of Alliance soldiers perpetrated by an agent acting in the name of a Horde faction makes it an Alliance issue. Deal with it.
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  #1136  
Old 10-24-2011, 11:57 PM
Lochnar Lochnar is offline

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No they didn't. The Horde turned down the offer of aid, and Varian responded with a fine, we will reclaim Undercity. We won't ever get a better chance.

The Alliance and Horde attacks were two separate plans that happened (I.E. plot device) to occur at the same time. They were not coordinated. They were not planned. They just happened.


Where are you getting this from...Varian never offered Thrall any aid with Undercity.

Thrall sends a letter with Jaina telling Varian that they've lost the Undercity to a coup, and that he's sending an army to quell the coup and kill those responsible. He states that he dosen't want a fight, but that he'll defend himself if need be.

Varian's response was "They've lost they Undercity?? This is the perfect opportunity to reclaim Lordareon for the Allaince" (paraphrased of course)

Wholly understandable mind you, it was a huge opportunity Varian couldn't pass up. But at no point did he offer Thrall any aid in retaking UC.
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  #1137  
Old 10-24-2011, 11:58 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Oh, THAT. I thought you meant aid of supplies, or fighting the Scourge. He should of staid the fuck out of it and done what was prudent.
Damnit...

Look, many many many Alliance solders, including one of the most important figures is the Alliance was killed in that attack.

That attack that the Horde should have monitored, but again, lol demon thrall.

It was an Alliance issue every bit as much as a Horde one.

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Where are you getting this from...Varian never offered Thrall any aid with Undercity.
.... I don't know how it is now, but we were sent to offer aid by Jaina (who had convinced Varian) to Orgr. We actually walked up to Thrall, as Alliance players, and talked about it with him. We were told that it was a Horde issue, and while it sucks it effected the Alliance, if the Alliance interfered further, he would bring action.

Like, no letters involved. Portals and mages yes, no letters.
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  #1138  
Old 10-24-2011, 11:58 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Where are you getting this from...Varian never offered Thrall any aid with Undercity.

Thrall sends a letter with Jaina telling Varian that they've lost the Undercity to a coup, and that he's sending an army to quell the coup and kill those responsible. He states that he dosen't want a fight, but that he'll defend himself if need be.

Varian's response was "They've lost they Undercity?? This is the perfect opportunity to reclaim Lordareon for the Allaince" (paraphrased of course)

Wholly understandable mind you, it was a huge opportunity Varian couldn't pass up. But at no point did he offer Thrall any aid in retaking UC.
And nowhere did Thrall acknowledge the fact that the Alliance got screwed by his people and has a stake in this as well. He did tell the Alliance to piss off, which is why Varian took things into his own hand.

If Thrall was actually smart and as diplomatic as he claims he is, he would have proposed a joint effort to bring those to justice, because the Alliance got far more screwed here than the Horde did.
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  #1139  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:00 AM
Lochnar Lochnar is offline

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Really, Thrall didn't even know his way around the Undercity. It's a completely incompetent that he didn't even check out what a race of zombies he allied with where doing
We know that Garrosh can't stand the stench of Undercity and avoids going there whenver possible.

Thrall probably felt the same way, but was more diplomatic about it.
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  #1140  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:00 AM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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The massacre of an entire army of Alliance soldiers perpetrated by an agent acting in the name of a Horde faction makes it an Alliance issue. Deal with it.
They were a splinter group working for the Burning Legion. It wasn't the Horde's fault that they chose that battle to backstab us and ended up killing all the pinkskins. Shit happens.
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  #1141  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:03 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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They were a splinter group working for the Burning Legion. It wasn't the Horde's fault that they chose that battle to backstab us and ended up killing all the pinkskins. Shit happens.
"Behold now, the terrible vengeance of the Forsaken! Now all can see, this is the hour of the Forsaken!"

He proclaimed to be acting in the name of a Horde faction. The Horde claimed that it was a splinter faction but that doesn't change the fact that the Horde enabled them. This'd be like saying that China wouldn't be responsible if they gave a nuclear device to a terrorist group that they would then use to blow up Seattle.

The Horde is completely at fault here.
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  #1142  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:03 AM
Lochnar Lochnar is offline

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If Thrall was actually smart and as diplomatic as he claims he is, he would have proposed a joint effort to bring those to justice, because the Alliance got far more screwed here than the Horde did
Alliance loses Bolvar and tons of Alliance troops.

Horde loses Draenosh(who we now know was Thrall's first choice to succeed him) and tons of Horde troops.



How exactly did the Alliance get screwed harder at the Wrathgate?
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  #1143  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:04 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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They were a splinter group working for the Burning Legion. It wasn't the Horde's fault that they chose that battle to backstab us and ended up killing all the pinkskins. Shit happens.
Ok.....dude..

Dreadlord.. If they existed in real life they would be that best friend who cheats on your girl while telling you that she's being faithful.. And then gives her AIDS.

Their racial MO is being backstabbing dickmongers into jackhammering the nearest sucker they can find.

Thrall, and the Orcs, letting a demon into power is completely the Horde's fault. The Burning Legion thing...it doesn't really fly... You know.. Dickmonger and all.

I mean, it would have essentially been the same thing as Stormwind and Onyxia if Bolvar and the rest of the Alliance knew Onyxia was a corrupted black dragon and the kid of Deathwing.
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  #1144  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:04 AM
Anasterian Anasterian is offline

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And nowhere did Thrall acknowledge the fact that the Alliance got screwed by his people and has a stake in this as well. He did tell the Alliance to piss off, which is why Varian took things into his own hand.

If Thrall was actually smart and as diplomatic as he claims he is, he would have proposed a joint effort to bring those to justice, because the Alliance got far more screwed here than the Horde did.
So you'd expect Thrall, as warchief of the Horde, to pretty much ask for Alliance's aid to retake the Undercity? With tensions as they were the Orcs would have never accepted that. Why did Thrall not condemn the attackers in Ashenvale and have them tracked down and shipped off for execution in Stormwind? The Orcs approved of beating on the Elves because of the recent trade embargo. It wasn't Thrall's job to placate Varian and the Alliance... it was to lead the Horde.
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  #1145  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:04 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by Lochnar View Post
Alliance loses Bolvar and tons of Alliance troops.

Horde loses Draenosh(who we now know was Thrall's first choice to succeed him) and tons of Horde troops.



How exactly did the Alliance get screwed harder at the Wrathgate?
Because the Alliance holds absolutely no responsibility for putting a demon in charge of the Forsaken, helping the Forsaken develop the plague, and delivering the plague to Putress at the Wrathgate.

The Horde got screwed by their own faults. The Alliance got screwed for someone elses faults.

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So you'd expect Thrall, as warchief of the Horde, to ASK for Alliance aid to retake the Undercity? With tensions as they were the Orcs would have never accepted that. Why did Thrall not condemn the attackers in Ashenvale and have them tracked down and shipped off for execution in Stormwind? The Orcs approved of beating on the Elves because of the recent trade embargo. It wasn't Thrall's job to placate Varian and the Alliance... it was to lead the Horde.
Just goes to show what the Horde's true nature is. A faction of aggressive jerks who want to destroy the Alliance. Which means that war was a foregone conclusion no matter what the Alliance did.
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  #1146  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:05 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Well this phrase certainly sums up both Ganishka and Fojar...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1WY_mM6jrw

Please stop bickering, my brain cells will thank you for it.
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  #1147  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:05 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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So you'd expect Thrall, as warchief of the Horde, to ASK for Alliance aid to retake the Undercity? With tensions as they were the Orcs would have never accepted that. Why did Thrall not condemn the attackers in Ashenvale and have them tracked down and shipped off for execution in Stormwind? The Orcs approved of beating on the Elves because of the recent trade embargo. It wasn't Thrall's job to placate Varian and the Alliance... it was to lead the Horde.
It's also his job as a leader to say his people are wrong and avoid war.

If every leader bowed to the whim of the people, chaos would reign.

And they also approved the skinning and other things that happened to the Night Elves, which you know, kinda takes a lot of the sympathy Alliance players should feel towards the Orcs plight.
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  #1148  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:08 AM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Ok.....dude..

Dreadlord.. If they existed in real life they would be that best friend who cheats on your girl while telling you that she's being faithful.. And then gives her AIDS.

Their racial MO is being backstabbing dickmongers into jackhammering the nearest sucker they can find.

Thrall, and the Orcs, letting a demon into power is completely the Horde's fault. The Burning Legion thing...it doesn't really fly... You know.. Dickmonger and all.

I mean, it would have essentially been the same thing as Stormwind and Onyxia if Bolvar and the rest of the Alliance knew Onyxia was a corrupted black dragon and the kid of Deathwing.
I know. I was just saying that it was unexpected at that moment.
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  #1149  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:09 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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I know. I was just saying that it was unexpected at that moment.
And that's a fair statement.

The point still stands that splinter faction or not, a lot of bad decisions were made to make what happened possible.

Anyway, that's as far as I'm going to go on the subject. I don't want to continue another pointless faction wank.
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  #1150  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:12 AM
Lochnar Lochnar is offline

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And nowhere did Thrall acknowledge the fact that the Alliance got screwed by his people and has a stake in this as well. He did tell the Alliance to piss off, which is why Varian took things into his own hand

So you're basically proposing that Thrall should have invited a foreign army onto Horde soil to quell what was essentially a Horde coup..

In what reality do you live again? No sane leader of ANY state would agree to that.
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