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  #1151  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:14 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by Lochnar View Post
So you're basically proposing that Thrall should have invited a foreign army onto Horde soil to quell what was essentially a Horde coup..

In what reality do you live again? No sane leader of ANY state would agree to that.
Considering how hotly contested the territory in question is combined with the fact that Thrall attacked Theramore to quell an Alliance coup, yes.
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  #1152  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:15 AM
Anasterian Anasterian is offline

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Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
It's also his job as a leader to say his people are wrong and avoid war.

If every leader bowed to the whim of the people, chaos would reign.

And they also approved the skinning and other things that happened to the Night Elves, which you know, kinda takes a lot of the sympathy Alliance players should feel towards the Orcs plight.
Thrall did nothing because he knew that the Orcs were getting weary of him and his diplomacy. His being good to the Alliance, especially his relationship with Jaina and Theramore, was costing him the loyalty of his people. Look at the comic... the Orcs grumble as he leaves for Razor Hill, and at the same time praise Garrosh as the "new blood" the Horde needed. Accepting Alliance aid at the Undercity would've only made his weak image worse.

Thrall's diplomacy was also costing his people dearly on a large scale. Battle stopped in Ashenvale and trade started... then trade stopped. The Orcs as a people were slipping into poverty before the Cataclysm. Not only that, but Orgrimmar was burning down almost weekly because of drought and stray fire elementals and getting new wood and that was out of the question because the Elves were refusing to trade with Orgrimmar. Poverty + burnt down capital + no access to new resources aside from copper and leather = lousy situation for the Horde.

Thrall was in BIG trouble. Handing over the "Horde" perpetrators of the attack would've done nothing to help this.

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Originally Posted by Lochnar View Post
So you're basically proposing that Thrall should have invited a foreign army onto Horde soil to quell what was essentially a Horde coup..

In what reality do you live again? No sane leader of ANY state would agree to that.
But Lochnar! If the Horde didn't let the Alliance help, they wouldn't have started the war! It would've been peace and rainbows!
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  #1153  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:17 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Thrall did nothing because he knew that the Orcs were getting weary of him and his diplomacy. His being good to the Alliance, especially his relationship with Jaina and Theramore, was costing him the loyalty of his people. Look at the comic... the Orcs grumble as he leaves for Razor Hill, and at the same time praise Garrosh as the "new blood" the Horde needed. Accepting Alliance aid at the Undercity would've only made his weak image worse.

Thrall's diplomacy was also costing his people dearly on a large scale. Battle stopped in Ashenvale and trade started... then trade stopped. The Orcs as a people were slipping into poverty before the Cataclysm. Not only that, but Orgrimmar was burning down almost weekly because of drought and stray fire elementals and getting new wood and that was out of the question because the Elves were refusing to trade with Orgrimmar. Poverty + burnt down capital + no access to new resources aside from copper and leather = lousy situation for the Horde.

Thrall was in BIG trouble. Handing over the "Horde" perpetrators of the attack would've done nothing to help this.
Then maybe he should've started cracking some warmonger skulls with the Doomhammer whenever someone called him weak for his foreign policy.

You know, like a fucking Warchief.
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  #1154  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:18 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Thrall did nothing because he knew that the Orcs were getting weary of him and his diplomacy. His being good to the Alliance, especially his relationship with Jaina and Theramore, was costing him the loyalty of his people. Look at the comic... the Orcs grumble as he leaves for Razor Hill, and at the same time praise Garrosh as the "new blood" the Horde needed. Accepting Alliance aid at the Undercity would've only made his weak image worse.

Thrall's diplomacy was also costing his people dearly on a large scale. Battle stopped in Ashenvale and trade started... then trade stopped. The Orcs as a people were slipping into poverty before the Cataclysm. Not only that, but Orgrimmar was burning down almost weekly because of drought and stray fire elementals and getting new wood and that was out of the question because the Elves were refusing to trade with Orgrimmar. Poverty + burnt down capital + no access to new resources aside from copper and leather = lousy situation for the Horde.

Thrall was in BIG trouble. Handing over the "Horde" perpetrators of the attack would've done nothing to help this.
As has been pointed out before, the Horde being in poverty is their fault. They have all they need to expand and thrive in their land.

Freshwater they can irrigate.

Alternatives to wood (or Tauren druids)

Heavy fishing waters.

The Horde didn't expand these, instead expanding their military might. Now, they are a raging military machine that can't sustain itself without consuming all it touches..

It's odd that it never happened. Even if the Orcs don't know how to do it, the Trolls and Tauren damn sure do.

If the Horde don't like that, and they think they should just take everyone elses, then they will always be a threat.

And that's the end of it. I answered you because it's not part of the faction debate. I won't participate in that.
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  #1155  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:19 AM
Lochnar Lochnar is offline

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Considering how hotly contested the territory in question is combined with the fact that Thrall attacked Theramore to quell an Alliance coup, yes
Thrall was INVITED by Jaina into Theramore, it was the only recourse she had considering she was cut off from the rest of the Alliance, and Thrall was her only ally in the region

Complete apples and oranges.
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  #1156  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:21 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by Lochnar View Post
Thrall was INVITED by Jaina into Theramore, it was the only recourse she had considering she was cut off from the rest of the Alliance, and Thrall was her only ally in the region

Complete apples and oranges.
And in this hypothetical scenario, Thrall would have invited Varian to exact vengeance for Bolvar and the soldiers lost at the Wrathgate, and as a gesture of good faith.

Hell, if Thrall had done that then he could've have expressed how wrong the Apothecarium is as well, and maybe there wouldn't be a war.
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  #1157  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:28 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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And in this hypothetical scenario, Thrall would have invited Varian to exact vengeance for Bolvar and the soldiers lost at the Wrathgate, and as a gesture of good faith.

Hell, if Thrall had done that then he could've have expressed how wrong the Apothecarium is as well, and maybe there wouldn't be a war.
Which is exactly why blizz made sure it didn't happen.
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  #1158  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:32 AM
Anasterian Anasterian is offline

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Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
As has been pointed out before, the Horde being in poverty is their fault. They have all they need to expand and thrive in their land.

Freshwater they can irrigate.

Alternatives to wood (or Tauren druids)

Heavy fishing waters.


You know... we don't hear enough about the fishing industry in either faction. Nor do we know how the factions divided use of the waters of Azeroth after the last treaty they'd signed. As far as we know the Night Elves could've secured a good deal of the good fishing water simply by their ten thousand years of knowledge in relation to fishing grounds.

Also on the note of resource acquisition... do the Kalimdor Horde know how to run crop farms? Like at all? They have livestock and can run a pig farm well but I don't think I've ever seen them grow crops except maybe in Northrend, and I think I may be remembering that wrong... pretty sure it was a pig farm too. Tauren were nomadic and never really settled to work farmland, Trolls we know nothing of...

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
And in this hypothetical scenario, Thrall would have invited Varian to exact vengeance for Bolvar and the soldiers lost at the Wrathgate, and as a gesture of good faith.

Hell, if Thrall had done that then he could've have expressed how wrong the Apothecarium is as well, and maybe there wouldn't be a war.
Here I think you're just kidding yourself. Varian was in no emotional state to just accept Thrall's word on anything related to the apothecarium. He was practically grief-induced fury incarnate at that point. Hell, I think Thrall would be just as blindsided at the sight as Varian was and wouldn't be able to come up with a good enough statement to pacify the ol' human... though really this is all conjecture on either side of the argument, so who can really say what would've happened.
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  #1159  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:33 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Which is exactly why blizz made sure it didn't happen.
I imagine it must suck horribly for the Horde to carry such a massive idiot ball. And no, I'm not being antagonizing here. It literally must suck.

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Heavy fishing waters.
It was actually mentioned in Heart of War (I think) that the Horde was doing fine food wise, and that it all came from fish.. Except the Orcs were getting tired of eating fish. It wasn't even a deal of survival. It was a deal of getting tired of fish.

As for not learning how to do something, they have to learn or they won't survive. Even if they grab up all the resources.
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  #1160  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:33 AM
Zeria Zeria is offline

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Hell, if Thrall had done that then he could've have expressed how wrong the Apothecarium is as well, and maybe there wouldn't be a war.
This is Varian "Two-Sides" Wrynn we're talking about. His mind was made up at the Battle for Undercity, wasn't it? He went all Lo'Gosh and declared war.

I know that's probably been brought up a few times, but it's not in Varian's character to not war. Same with Garrosh. That's why everything since Wrath has been drilling the "war" into Warcraft lately. The writers aren't going for peace because the players don't really want it. There wouldn't be peace with your common suggestion of a strike on Lordaeron against the Forsaken, either.

Varian doesn't see to reason most of the time. If Thrall expressed his concerns about the Apothecarium, do you think Varian would just hand-wave it and be "We coo', bro?"
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  #1161  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:45 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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This is Varian "Two-Sides" Wrynn we're talking about. His mind was made up at the Battle for Undercity, wasn't it? He went all Lo'Gosh and declared war.

I know that's probably been brought up a few times, but it's not in Varian's character to not war. Same with Garrosh. That's why everything since Wrath has been drilling the "war" into Warcraft lately. The writers aren't going for peace because the players don't really want it. There wouldn't be peace with your common suggestion of a strike on Lordaeron against the Forsaken, either.

Varian doesn't see to reason most of the time. If Thrall expressed his concerns about the Apothecarium, do you think Varian would just hand-wave it and be "We coo', bro?"
Varian is starting to see reason, since Wolfheart. But yeah, back in Wrath, when the man who raised his son in his absence, and kept Stormwind and the Alliance together, died due to a Horde faction deciding to bomb the shit out of the wrathgate...

You'd be pissed to? I mean, it's not like Varian was a nutcase all of Wrath - allowing Saurfang through, for example.

As much as the myth that surrounds Saurfang is, I'm pretty sure Muradin Bronzebeard and Varian could've taken Saurfang, while Jaina cried in the background.
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  #1162  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:48 AM
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Zarhym talking about it in this thread:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...5957?page=2#26
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  #1163  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:49 AM
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You know... we don't hear enough about the fishing industry in either faction. Nor do we know how the factions divided use of the waters of Azeroth after the last treaty they'd signed. As far as we know the Night Elves could've secured a good deal of the good fishing water simply by their ten thousand years of knowledge in relation to fishing grounds.

Also on the note of resource acquisition... do the Kalimdor Horde know how to run crop farms? Like at all? They have livestock and can run a pig farm well but I don't think I've ever seen them grow crops except maybe in Northrend, and I think I may be remembering that wrong... pretty sure it was a pig farm too. Tauren were nomadic and never really settled to work farmland, Trolls we know nothing of...
Tauren have a racial called "Cultivation" so they can do... something.

Also, garrosh noted after Krenna mentioned it in heart of War, that there were no plant-farms in Durotar, just pig ones.

So I think the Orcs know how, the soil must just suck.

We don't have any idea how good the fishing water is though, for all we know the makrura down near the echo isles could've eaten everything, the naga's attacks on them and everything else in the sea could leave whole regions barren.

Or maybe the orcs, along with the Darkspears crab-traps DO fish heavily from the waters... and it's just not shown ingame?


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Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
I imagine it must suck horribly for the Horde to carry such a massive idiot ball. And no, I'm not being antagonizing here. It literally must suck.



It was actually mentioned in Heart of War (I think) that the Horde was doing fine food wise, and that it all came from fish.. Except the Orcs were getting tired of eating fish. It wasn't even a deal of survival. It was a deal of getting tired of fish.

As for not learning how to do something, they have to learn or they won't survive. Even if they grab up all the resources.
1. It does.

2. I remember NOTHING of fish sir. Source please?
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  #1164  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:54 AM
Zeria Zeria is offline

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Varian is starting to see reason, since Wolfheart. But yeah, back in Wrath, when the man who raised his son in his absence, and kept Stormwind and the Alliance together, died due to a Horde faction deciding to bomb the shit out of the wrathgate...

You'd be pissed to? I mean, it's not like Varian was a nutcase all of Wrath - allowing Saurfang through, for example.

As much as the myth that surrounds Saurfang is, I'm pretty sure Muradin Bronzebeard and Varian could've taken Saurfang, while Jaina cried in the background.
Everyone has a right to be pissed. This is war!

But yeah, that's why I said "most." If we started to nitpick, a lot of forum posters would barely have a toe to stand on.
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  #1165  
Old 10-25-2011, 01:02 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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2. I remember NOTHING of fish sir. Source please?
Huh, maybe I was wrong.. Getting a few things mixed up. Markets were full, and the orc chick was fishing.. Got the two mixed up.
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  #1166  
Old 10-25-2011, 01:08 AM
Anasterian Anasterian is offline

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*gives Skytotem a red shirt*
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  #1167  
Old 10-25-2011, 01:15 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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*gives Skytotem a red shirt*
It will only make him a bigger target
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  #1168  
Old 10-25-2011, 01:56 AM
Porimlys Porimlys is offline

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moar blue posts:

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I know I did talk about this subject when Cataclysm was the fresh, hot topic. I don't remember what my exact words were, though, and would love to read them again after seeing several people bring them up in this thread.

I'm pretty sure I never made any specific point that an equal amount of story and retribution would be dedicated to the Alliance in Cataclysm, because I was well aware of how most of the story would play out. The Horde made many more grabs for power and dominance when Thrall left. Then Thrall became the protagonist with the evolving story of each patch focusing on the efforts to defeat Deathwing.

The stories of the villains in the expansions so far have had pretty direct closure, but that's never been the case for the two player factions. And one shouldn't expect it to be with the conclusion of any expansion. Things will continue to change and there will be an ongoing tit-for-tat between the Horde and Alliance. If you start the story at Warcraft I and move forward, that's evident. Leaders have changed. Cities have been destroyed. New cities have been created. Land has been gained and lost. The races who have allied with either side have changed.

It's going to keep going and we have no ambitions to decisively make one faction less interesting or cool than the other. That's not a good design philosophy for two playable factions and it doesn't make for a flourishing story.

But you will win some and you will lose some. And the wins and losses won't be at equal intervals for both sides, aligning with the release of each patch or expansion.


Get it, Z man, get it!
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  #1169  
Old 10-25-2011, 02:02 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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moar blue posts:





Get it, Z man, get it!
People in that threat are morons.
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  #1170  
Old 10-25-2011, 02:06 AM
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People in that threat are morons.
This is General Forums we're talking about now.
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  #1171  
Old 10-25-2011, 02:06 AM
Porimlys Porimlys is offline

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People in that threat are morons.
Yeah, it's a lot of very silly arguments. None of the super vocal people are going to be like "Oh, you're right Zarhym!". Hell, they wont say that to anyone. That's the nature of these silly arguments, you pick your stance and then argue at each other knowing no one will ever change their minds. I got sucked into that thread for about a page and half the posters ignored my posts because they weren't a personal attack they could respond to, and the people who did respond weren't even reading what I was saying. I got out of there fast.

But there are people who might be concerned about the topic (valid) and click on the thread or see his blue posts, who are secure enough and mature enough to consider his points. So I hope he keeps it up.
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  #1172  
Old 10-25-2011, 02:07 AM
Anasterian Anasterian is offline

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People in that threat are morons.
Poor guy... had no idea he was --- ok, I won't say that again after I traumatized people with images of lion serial rapists.

But yes, I concur on that one Ferlion... a lot of morons in that thread.
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  #1173  
Old 10-25-2011, 02:33 AM
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This is all the fault of years of bad writing.

Specifically, years of bad writing with regards to Jaina Proudmoore since WC3. Even the Arthas novel recreation of that lore was a disservice.

Jaina has been painted as a chicken-livered, Thrall-loving, Orc sympathizer for years now. Worse, she was a blubbering ninny all throughout Wrath of the Lich King - here we have the mightiest woman in the Alliance, possibly the mightiest mortal female in all of Azeroth... and she's crying over Arthas (YEARS after he went batshit homicidal) like some jilted prom date.

This is the leader of the second-largest remaining human nation. This is the ruler of Theramore. This is our great Alliance female role-model.

Yeah.

So, in order to break her out of this insultingly sissified corner they've written her into, they need to slap her around a bit. They need to piss her off. They need to radically change her character.

I'm telling you, Jaina needs to emerge from this battle looking like Harvey Two-Face, sailing off on an Alliance rescue ship as she watches her precious Theramore go up in flames and hears the cries of her subjects being raped, burned, and pillaged by packs of bloodthirsty orcs.

Then, maybe, she'll get over her sympathetic crybaby routine, and become the badass that she ought to be.

I think this is why they are burning Theramore.

I think, obviously, the Horde will need to lose something substantial in return. My suggestion would be to have the Alliance re-take Tirisfal, and have the Forsaken re-locate to Stratholme. Then, you would have two Horde capitols at the top of EK, similar in proximity to the Alliance capitols at the top of Kalimdor. They could share early leveling space with the Blood Elves. Stratholme can still exist as a CoT instance. The Forsaken enjoy a city that has meaning to them as former citizens of Lordaeron. Alliance fanboys get Capitol City back, and can maybe even entertain the idea of digging up a long-lost Menethil to stick on the throne, and everyone goes home happy.
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Old 10-25-2011, 02:36 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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The knowledge that Stratholme would remain infested by zombies in that solution definitely diminishes it for me.
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  #1175  
Old 10-25-2011, 02:36 AM
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I think, obviously, the Horde will need to lose something substantial in return. My suggestion would be to have the Alliance re-take Tirisfal, and have the Forsaken re-locate to Stratholme. Then, you would have two Horde capitols at the top of EK, similar in proximity to the Alliance capitols at the top of Kalimdor. They could share early leveling space with the Blood Elves. Stratholme can still exist as a CoT instance. The Forsaken enjoy a city that has meaning to them as former citizens of Lordaeron. Alliance fanboys get Capitol City back, and can maybe even entertain the idea of digging up a long-lost Menethil to stick on the throne, and everyone goes home happy.
...except the Forsaken. -_- Who are going to wind up losing serious ground for one of Garrosh's victories.

Seriously that does not sound like a good idea to me at all, and they're not going to gut the 1-60 leveling experience again. (And hell, that'd be an even more major change than the Cataclysm changes.)

Also, the Undercity is already at the top of the continent, and I don't... understand why they'd need to equate the geographical placement of the factions capitals anyway.
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