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  #1351  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:04 AM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
A bunch of Tauren protested Bael Modan because they don't like dynamite, it didn't work so they got violent, Dwarves drove them off.

Tauren got butthurt and followed that up by murdering dozens of Dwarven civilians.
Woah, wait.

Is this coming from the guy who just raged at Kellick about simplifying things?

Khazgorm's journal explicitly states that he didn't give a rat's ass about the comfort of the local inhabitants. The tauren. And you know what? They drove off the tauren before they called in military support.

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The work will be noisy and disruptive but our search is of far greater importance than the comfort of the local inhabitants. In fact, we've already had to drive a band of bull-men out of the area who were proving to be a nuisance.

The fact that we are dealing with various rogue elements out here leads me to believe we will need support from the King's Army. Not only will the excavation require military support, it would seem to my novice eye that the location of Bael Modan might be of strategic value to the Alliance considering the volatility of world politics in their current state.
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  #1352  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:04 AM
Porimlys Porimlys is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Problem with this view is that the Tauren signed on with the Horde, and as such gave up any "intrinsic claim" that they had to the land when Thrall signed that treaty with Jaina. Them sticking with the Horde means that they (presumably) support that treaty.

Why does that mean they gave up claim? The treaty wasn't to give the Alliance right to the land, it was to stop any more conflicts arising. The treaty is done and gone anyway, whether or not they supported it it's not a part of the equation anymore and their home, the hordes home, is now being invaded by the Alliance because that treaty has been used as toilet paper by both sides.

The Tauren chose to share their land with the Orcs and create the Horde. The treaty existed because they wanted to keep their land, and not lose it because of an age old conflict. Nothing about the treaty took the land away from the Tauren or the Horde.


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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post

A bunch of Tauren protested Bael Modan because they don't like dynamite, it didn't work so they got violent, Dwarves drove them off.

Tauren got butthurt and followed that up by murdering dozens of Dwarven civilians.
This just shows you're not looking at any of these events from an objective viewpoint.

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Tauren got butthurt
This in particular, it's not fair to the Tauren people at all to make sweeping statements like this regarding a touchy in game event. It's also not beneficial to your argument, no one will take you seriously when you establish your points this way.
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  #1353  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:11 AM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
A bunch of Tauren protested Bael Modan because they don't like dynamite, it didn't work so they got violent, Dwarves drove them off.

Tauren got butthurt and followed that up by murdering dozens of Dwarven civilians.
Whitewashing detected! Don't forget that these "civilians" as you called them, used a massive cannon to firebomb Camp Taurajo.
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  #1354  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:13 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by Porimlys View Post
Why does that mean they gave up claim? The treaty wasn't to give the Alliance right to the land, it was to stop any more conflicts arising. The treaty is done and gone anyway, whether or not they supported it it's not a part of the equation anymore and their home, the hordes home, is now being invaded by the Alliance because that treaty has been used as toilet paper by both sides.

The Tauren chose to share their land with the Orcs and create the Horde. The treaty existed because they wanted to keep their land, and not lose it because of an age old conflict. Nothing about the treaty took the land away from the Tauren or the Horde.
The treaty established the Barrens as no-mans-land between the Alliance and the Horde. That applies just as much to the Tauren as it does to the Dwarves, since Tauren are members of the Horde. If they disagreed with the treaty then they should have withdrawn from the Horde.

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Woah, wait.

Is this coming from the guy who just raged at Kellick about simplifying things?

Khazgorm's journal explicitly states that he didn't give a rat's ass about the comfort of the local inhabitants. The tauren. And you know what? They drove off the tauren before they called in military support.
Because the Tauren were trying to deny the Dwarves the right to dig there as had been outlined in the treaty. Nowhere there does it say that any Tauren were killed.
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  #1355  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:15 AM
Porimlys Porimlys is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
The treaty established the Barrens as no-mans-land between the Alliance and the Horde. That applies just as much to the Tauren as it does to the Dwarves, since Tauren are members of the Horde. If they disagreed with the treaty then they should have withdrawn from the Horde.
Source?

I've never seen any specific parts of this treaty, it's always been "There was a treaty and it was meant to uphold peace". I could just not know, or this could just be your interpretation. If your argument comes down to "this is what I think that treaty says", I think you better find another defense. Of course, if it does say that then shame on me.
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  #1356  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:18 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by Porimlys View Post
Source?

I've never seen any specific parts of this treaty, it's always been "There was a treaty and it was meant to uphold peace". I could just not know, or this could just be your interpretation.
Cycle of Hatred.

Unless you're arguing that Tauren were not part of the Horde at the time.

We know that it established the Barrens as no-mans-land, meaning that the Tauren have no more right to it than anyone else.
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  #1357  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:18 AM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Because the Tauren were trying to deny the Dwarves the right to dig there as had been outlined in the treaty. Nowhere there does it say that any Tauren were killed.
I haven't seen anything hinting towards a "treaty" regarding digging rights in the Barrens.

I also haven't seen anything hinting that the tauren were opposed to the digging, just the methods the dwarves employed in their digging.

Gann's entire tribe was wiped out. The village was destroyed.
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  #1358  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:20 AM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Because the Tauren were trying to deny the Dwarves the right to dig there as had been outlined in the treaty. Nowhere there does it say that any Tauren were killed.
The treaty didn't give them the right to firebomb a hunting camp, or slaughter a tribe of Tauren, or invade Mulgore and start digging up Tauren land, now did it?
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  #1359  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:21 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by cosmictimelion View Post
I haven't seen anything hinting towards a "treaty" regarding digging rights in the Barrens.

I also haven't seen anything hinting that the tauren were opposed to the digging, just the methods the dwarves employed in their digging.

Gann's entire tribe was wiped out. The village was destroyed.
No mans land or neutral territory implies that the Tauren don't get to decide what happens on said lands, regardless of whether or not they don't like explosives.

Gann neglects to say who struck first in the conflict. In fact, Khazgorm's journal suggests that it was the Tauren who initiated hostilities.

I also hear that it's impossible for Tauren to lie or stretch the truth for sympathy. In fact, I hear that they spontaneously combust if they think so much as a single impure thought.

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The treaty didn't give them the right to firebomb a hunting camp, or slaughter a tribe of Tauren, or invade Mulgore and start digging up Tauren land, now did it?
It did, however, give them the right to defend themselves from Tauren aggression, counterattack due to Garrosh's declaration of war on the Alliance, and dig up the land that they had gotten via treaty.

Shouldn't you be in the general forums preaching about the evils of non-Christians? Your presence here isn't wanted.
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  #1360  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:25 AM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
No mans land or neutral territory implies that the Tauren don't get to decide what happens on said lands, regardless of whether or not they don't like explosives.

Gann neglects to say who struck first in the conflict. In fact, Khazgorm's journal suggests that it was the Tauren who initiated hostilities.
But the dwarves do? The dwarves have more say on what goes on somewhere than the actual people living there? Nice fanon. Show me your source or shut up.

Except he explicitly states that he tried a diplomatic solution and it failed. ( http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Gann%27s_Reclamation )

Last edited by Frostwolf; 10-26-2011 at 01:41 AM..
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  #1361  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:27 AM
Porimlys Porimlys is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Cycle of Hatred.

Unless you're arguing that Tauren were not part of the Horde at the time.

We know that it established the Barrens as no-mans-land, meaning that the Tauren have no more right to it than anyone else.
I know it's from Cycle of Hatred, I want a specific line that says the treaty established that Barrens is completely neutral and that no side has any claim to it. If that's the case, it's really not that great an argument for the Alliance, as it *pretty much* means they came and saw the Horde had land and decided that wasn't okay.

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Your presence here isn't wanted.
Heh
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  #1362  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:27 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by cosmictimelion View Post
Seems that might have been retconned. Garrosh, at least, prior to becoming Warchief believed the Barrens was Horde territory.

Ironically, the Alliance has always had a much stronger military presence in the Barrens than the Horde has. Camp Taurajo and the Crossroads versus Bael Modan and Northwatch Hold.



http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/lor...eam/6#readmode
Remember, the Warsong Clan was based out of the Barrens as well, unless I'm totally cheesing it here.
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  #1363  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:30 AM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Remember, the Warsong Clan was based out of the Barrens as well, unless I'm totally cheesing it here.
Even with the Warsong Clan (who really were based at the edge of Ashenvale) the Alliance's military presence in the Barrens was still severely larger than the Horde's.

One clan, some hunters, and a few grunts, versus a freakin' fleet of air planes.
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  #1364  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:31 AM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
It did, however, give them the right to defend themselves from Tauren aggression, counterattack due to Garrosh's declaration of war on the Alliance, and dig up the land that they had gotten via treaty.

Shouldn't you be in the general forums preaching about the evils of non-Christians? Your presence here isn't wanted.
Defend themselves?! From WHAT?! A bunch of irritated villagers? They didn't get shit from the treaty. Also, slaughtering those Tauren happened before Garrosh became Warchief, so Garrosh's actions are moot on this matter.

I only bitch about creeping Islamism and the evils of Islam. I'm perfectly fine with "non-Christians", you rumor spreading monkey-fister. Also, speak about not being wanted, most people hate you on here, you know that, right?
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  #1365  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:38 AM
Porimlys Porimlys is offline

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Means you're winning, embrace it.
I'm not winning if he's not listening or considering anyone elses viewpoints. When we argue with Fojar, we all lose.
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  #1366  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:40 AM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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I'm not winning if he's not listening or considering anyone elses viewpoints. When we argue with Fojar, we all lose.
Yeah, but it is fun as heck to point out his hypocrisy and generally make him look like an idiot to everyone reading the thread.

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Because the Tauren were trying to deny the Dwarves the right to dig there as had been outlined in the treaty.
When asked for a source regarding digging rights:

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
No mans land or neutral territory implies that the Tauren don't get to decide what happens on said lands, regardless of whether or not they don't like explosives.
Vyrin loves his fanon.

Last edited by Frostwolf; 10-26-2011 at 01:43 AM..
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  #1367  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:42 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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why is this thread talking about islam all of a sudden

I don't really understand
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #1368  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:43 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I'm not winning if he's not listening or considering anyone elses viewpoints. When we argue with Fojar, we all lose.
Good point...

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Originally Posted by Quirnheim View Post
why is this thread talking about islam all of a sudden

I don't really understand
You're new here so I'll fill you in.

Ganishka is to Islam what Fojar is to the Forsaken.
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  #1369  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:43 AM
Porimlys Porimlys is offline

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Originally Posted by Quirnheim View Post
why is this thread talking about islam all of a sudden

I don't really understand
Hmmm....


Okay, let's discuss who is entitled to lay claim to 1k Needles. I vote the water.
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  #1370  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:45 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Hmmm....


Okay, let's discuss who is entitled to lay claim to 1k Needles. I vote the water.
Whoever builds better boats. That being Gnomes vs. Goblins.

I want more boats, dammit. That boat in 1k Needles was an awesome zone concept and was one of the very few reasons I go there all the time when questing.
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  #1371  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:45 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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Originally Posted by Porimlys View Post
Hmmm....


Okay, let's discuss who is entitled to lay claim to 1k Needles. I vote the water.
The water is invading Tauren territory! It should recede from Tauren land immediately, no matter how long the water has or hasn't been there. The Tauren have ancestral rights to it!
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  #1372  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:48 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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I know it's from Cycle of Hatred, I want a specific line that says the treaty established that Barrens is completely neutral and that no side has any claim to it. If that's the case, it's really not that great an argument for the Alliance, as it *pretty much* means they came and saw the Horde had land and decided that wasn't okay.
It was neutral enough to make the establishment of an Alliance fortress on the border of Horde territory completely legal. Pretty sure that's a good indicator of the that dig sites are also allowed.

Quote:
I'm not winning if he's not listening or considering anyone elses viewpoints. When we argue with Fojar, we all lose.
I like you Pori.

But disagreeing with you doesn't mean I'm not considering your viewpoints. I just think that you're incorrect.

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Defend themselves?! From WHAT?! A bunch of irritated villagers? They didn't get shit from the treaty. Also, slaughtering those Tauren happened before Garrosh became Warchief, so Garrosh's actions are moot on this matter.
They did get shit from that treaty, up to and including the right to establish military outposts in the Barrens.

And a mob of giant bull men who've gotten really rowdy can be dangerous, especially since this was before any military presence.
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  #1373  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:55 AM
Porimlys Porimlys is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
It was neutral enough to make the establishment of an Alliance fortress on the border of Horde territory completely legal. Pretty sure that's a good indicator of the that dig sites are also allowed.

Oh, so did Bael'gun come post treaty? Is there confirmation of that?
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Old 10-26-2011, 01:56 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Cycle of Hatred.
Could you provide the exact quote? I'm sorry, but it's hard to believe: game mechanics and all, but Barrens is clearly shown as Horde territory, at least all of its north and east.
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  #1375  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:59 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Magni. Lost to the elements. Basically dead.

Bolvar. Basically dead.

Anyway, I don't care anymore. I want to talk about the Alliance moving forward, I think I'm finished complaining.
Drannosh. Cairne. Kael'thas. Varimathras. Zul'Jin. Bladefist. Grom.
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Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

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