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  #1401  
Old 10-26-2011, 09:44 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
Soooo... Theramoore destroyed. Where do you think Jaina will go? Stormwind's gotten a little crowded as far as Boss NPCs go, though I'd be totally on-board to see the Mage District get expanded with Jaina building some pretty sweet additions to it. Its cool as is, but to see it grow bigger and become her new little place of residence would be awesome.
Depends. I'm thining that 5.0 will see Anduin Wrynn removed from Stormwind and placed into the Exxodar.

I also have a hunch that, if indeed Gilneas will be re-taken (only the city, which will be under siege, so it'll still be a "mini"-capitol ala Bilgewater Harbour), then Genn Greymane might also vacate his spot.

Leaving Varian alone and in need of a co-ruler of sorts. After all, Jaina is from a royal house, and as thus has a rightful place in the house of nobles.

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
Where the Blood Elves offer a good deal of magic to the Horde, the Draenei manage the same for the Alliance, and they've been practicing magic for over 25,000 years, Argus being described as a world where magic ruled and build a utopian society.
Except that the Draenei have done so little that the Alliance was surprised to find out that the Draenei still considered themselves to be members. They've supposedly been completely unactive for the duration of Wrath of the Lich King and the Cataclysm, having seemingly vanished after Kil'Jaedens' defeat. Many have returned to Draenor to rebuild.

The Sin'dorei, meanwhile, have established themselves deeper and deeper into the Horde. The Reliquary, the Sunreavers and the Horde's involvement in the Argent Dawn/Crusade in general seem to be mostly through Blood Elf efforts.

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
Its only recently that the Horde has caught up to the Alliance in terms of technology, and they're still going through some growing pains of it, especially since Goblins are intent on cutting costs everywhere which puts the Horde's war machines in pitiable condition, such as an entire naval fleet falling to pieces.
Eh... I disagree. You seem to think Goblins to be the only technological advantage the Horde sports, when it's well known that the Sin'dorei and the Forsaken are cunning in technological warfare.

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
Overall, the Alliance holds the strength in sheer numbers and quality of training. That's been my take on things =)

The Horde is certainly catching up in fields that can make a major impact, but they'll never be able to defeat the Alliance without more numbers.
The Alliance also suffered over fifty thousand deaths in Northrend, bankrupting the nation of Stormwind. The Horde, meanwhile, consider their Northrend campaign to have been an incredible success.

The Alliance as a whole, particularly the Night Elves, have been more crippled by the effects of the Cataclysm than has the Horde.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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  #1402  
Old 10-26-2011, 09:51 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
The Alliance also suffered over fifty thousand deaths in Northrend, bankrupting the nation of Stormwind. The Horde, meanwhile, consider their Northrend campaign to have been an incredible success.

The Alliance as a whole, particularly the Night Elves, have been more crippled by the effects of the Cataclysm than has the Horde.
Those two above being the sole reason that the Horde has been making gains as long as they have been. Sans the Cataclysm and if Stormwind wasn't bankrupt (can someone -please- tell me where all that money to rebuild Stormwind went after the second war?!), the Horde would have been in dire straights.
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  #1403  
Old 10-26-2011, 09:53 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by Brother Shifte View Post
I don't think the Blood Elves are particularly more destructive with magic. The Alliance have Highborne, High Elves and humans, not to mention Gnomes, Dwraves and Worgen. Jaina, Rhonin, Medivh, Khadgar etc are top dog casters, so I reject the concept that Blood Elves are inherently better at it. I'd say they make use of magic intrinsically as part of their society, though, unlike humans.
In "The Shadow of the Sun" leader story, it was specifically noted how humanity came begging for Quel'thalas' aid in restoring the Kirin Tor and taking on the blue flight. The Blood Elves are also known to, during Azshara questing, laugh at what they perceive to be weak and ridiculous magic from the Highborn, describing it as clumsy and unstable.

Rhonin is neutral, and Medivh is a guardian, however. I don't think its right to compare those two characters to the rest, considering one is the biggest sue the Warcraft universe has ever known, and the other doesn't wield his own power - but rather power imbued onto him by his mother who in turn had her powers bestowed upon her by many mages her superior, of various races - including elves.

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
The Blood Elves aren't even the whole 10% of the surviving members of their race. You lose 1% to High Elves, then 2% to neutral Scryers, and probably 4% remains loyal to Kael and were killed in Outland/Quel'danas, leaving you with 3% of that race being in the Horde.
Source or gtfo.

I'm sorry, but made up numbers just make you look ridiculous. If you can in any way back up these numbers, I will apologize and concede in matters of population.

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
Like I said, before, the Alliance's superior numbers bring the Horde's innate advantage for member-races to a standstill. It may take 3 humans to take down 1 Tauren, but for every tauren there -are- 3 humans, etc...
Again. Source or gtfo.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.

Last edited by Magistrix Verdande; 10-26-2011 at 09:56 AM..
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  #1404  
Old 10-26-2011, 09:58 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
In "The Shadow of the Sun" leader story, it was specifically noted how humanity came begging for Quel'thalas' aid in restoring the Kirin Tor and taking on the blue flight. The Blood Elves are also known to, during Azshara questing, laugh at what they perceive to be weak and ridiculous magic from the Highborn, describing it as clumsy and unstable.

Rhonin is neutral, and Medivh is a guardian, however. I don't think its right to compare those two characters to the rest, considering one is the biggest sue the Warcraft universe has ever known, and the other doesn't wield his own power - but rather power imbued onto him by his mother who in turn had her powers bestowed upon her by many mages her superior, of various races - including elves.
The Blood Elves couldn't really afford to go to Northrend, and only sent the Magister and anyone willing to go with him, to set up the Sunreavers in Dalaran, no?

It's not like the Blood Elves sent armies or anything.

And, the Horde would consider Northrend a major success, even if they took double the amount of casualties the Alliance did. As long as the win, and they can return to celebrate about it, they don't really care how many people died.

It was showing how the two factions where dealing with the after effects of the war in Northrend. The Horde celebrated the campaign, the Alliance mourns their dead.
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  #1405  
Old 10-26-2011, 10:00 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by Moonrunner View Post
I disagree.

What are blood elves and forsaken mages compared to their humans/gnomes/Dark Iron/Draene´/highborne/ high elves and worgens counterparts?
I actually refered to the Forsaken in matters of bioengineering, but I suppose they are decent spellcasters as well. About on par with humans, with a lesser restriction on fel magic and "taboo" magic in general.

As for the races you listed:

Humans - Adept at magic, but clumsy.

Gnomes - Probably better spellcasters in general than both humans and Forsaken, but lack the arcane history of the elves.

Dark Iron - What do we know of dwarven magic? We know they attempted to summon fire elementals and blew up a chunk of the world due to their folly. Do we know anything else?

Genuine question here, by the way.

I adressed the Draenei and Night Elf Highborn in a previous post.

Is there anything in particular which would differentiate a Worgen spellcaster from a human one? Other than the fact that a Worgen student might occasionally frenzy and eat his own boots whenever he's frustrated at one of his spells not working out as he'd hoped?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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  #1406  
Old 10-26-2011, 10:20 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
I actually refered to the Forsaken in matters of bioengineering, but I suppose they are decent spellcasters as well. About on par with humans, with a lesser restriction on fel magic and "taboo" magic in general.

As for the races you listed:

Humans - Adept at magic, but clumsy.

Gnomes - Probably better spellcasters in general than both humans and Forsaken, but lack the arcane history of the elves.

Dark Iron - What do we know of dwarven magic? We know they attempted to summon fire elementals and blew up a chunk of the world due to their folly. Do we know anything else?

Genuine question here, by the way.

I adressed the Draenei and Night Elf Highborn in a previous post.

Is there anything in particular which would differentiate a Worgen spellcaster from a human one? Other than the fact that a Worgen student might occasionally frenzy and eat his own boots whenever he's frustrated at one of his spells not working out as he'd hoped?
I thought, by now, with all the examples of Human spell casters being stronger than Elven ones, that people would get that Humans are extremely powerful casters, but just that they didn't have the ability to be subtle with their magic. An example they gave was, a High Elf could light a candle, but a Human might just end up blowing up the room.

Besides, wasn't our favorite leader of the Kirin Tor a more than a match to the High Elves during the war of the ancients? The peak of Elven spell casting power?
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  #1407  
Old 10-26-2011, 10:28 AM
Yuber8900 Yuber8900 is offline

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
Those two above being the sole reason that the Horde has been making gains as long as they have been. Sans the Cataclysm and if Stormwind wasn't bankrupt (can someone -please- tell me where all that money to rebuild Stormwind went after the second war?!),
The plothole drain.
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  #1408  
Old 10-26-2011, 10:31 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Yuber8900 View Post
The plothole drain.
More or less, and that's what is really bothering me about Stormwind's Bankruptcy.



Also, to whomever said, 'Source or GTFO,' I never respond to that kind of statement, because no matter what sources I list, no matter where I pick up various percentages from or use in-game numbers of NPCs as statistics, etc... the fact remains, those who say, 'Source or GTFO,' are really saying, 'Get a Quote from Metzen directly or else you're a filthy liar.'
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  #1409  
Old 10-26-2011, 10:38 AM
Yakitori Yakitori is offline

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
More or less, and that's what is really bothering me about Stormwind's Bankruptcy.



Also, to whomever said, 'Source or GTFO,' I never respond to that kind of statement, because no matter what sources I list, no matter where I pick up various percentages from or use in-game numbers of NPCs as statistics, etc... the fact remains, those who say, 'Source or GTFO,' are really saying, 'Get a Quote from Metzen directly or else you're a filthy liar.'
http://www.wowpedia.org/Blood_elf#Population

That's about the best I could find that's still canon; the only other numbers (as in, for a solid count) I could find were from the RPG books.
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  #1410  
Old 10-26-2011, 10:41 AM
Yuber8900 Yuber8900 is offline

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Originally Posted by Yakitori View Post
http://www.wowpedia.org/Blood_elf#Population

That's about the best I could find that's still canon; the only other numbers (as in, for a solid count) I could find were from the RPG books.
85% stayed behind? Hahahahaha, man that's just so wrong.
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  #1411  
Old 10-26-2011, 10:45 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by Crazyterran View Post
I thought, by now, with all the examples of Human spell casters being stronger than Elven ones, that people would get that Humans are extremely powerful casters, but just that they didn't have the ability to be subtle with their magic. An example they gave was, a High Elf could light a candle, but a Human might just end up blowing up the room.

Besides, wasn't our favorite leader of the Kirin Tor a more than a match to the High Elves during the war of the ancients? The peak of Elven spell casting power?
Are you refering to Rhonin and the Highborn in War of the Ancients?

It kinda goes back to what the Blood Elves think of the Highborn.

The Highborn were so used to having godly power and their beck and call that, without the Well of Eternity, they have to struggle immensely to cast spells, supposedly resulting in much amusement for the Belf NPC's who are monitoring the nelf mages in Azshara. Rhonin, meanwhile, was a trained human mage - he actually had to wield magic rather than just calling upon it and casting it.

The Blood Elves have had 7 000 years to cast magic without the Well of Eternity, and it's still a majorly imbued aspect of their entire society and civilazation. Can there be powerful human mages? Of course. Can they be more powerful than even the most skilled blood elf magister? Naturally.

But as a general rule of thumb, I believe the average Blood Elf Spellcaster to be superior to any other average spellcaster in the Horde and the Alliance. Possibly with the exception of the Draenei - but that's because we don't know much about their arcane civilization.

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
Also, to whomever said, 'Source or GTFO,' I never respond to that kind of statement, because no matter what sources I list, no matter where I pick up various percentages from or use in-game numbers of NPCs as statistics, etc... the fact remains, those who say, 'Source or GTFO,' are really saying, 'Get a Quote from Metzen directly or else you're a filthy liar.'
So... Do you have a source or not? Did you just make up numbers or not?

If not, where did you get them? Where are the numbers from? What book? Which Cdev? What author told you this, and where can we confirm that you're not pulling things out of your ass because you can't actually argue?

I'm a bit annoyed with you in particular, because we've had this argument before. You need to stop making things up to support your arguments.

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
To address a few minor points though, the Horde basically was the gathering of races/peoples who were already small in number for one reason or another. While its likely in that time they've increase their numbers, its ridiculous to assume the Alliance hasn't done the same. Granted, numbers alone will not win a war.
The Horde has prospered ever since WC3, however, whereas the Alliance has only suffered and diminished.

That's 10 years.

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Originally Posted by Ku'ja View Post
I wouldn't go that far as i think that the Blood Elves are far superior than the rest when it comes to using Magic but they are not really devoted to what the Horde wants and mainly joined for aid. I do hope that changes though and Garrosh calls the Blood Elves to aid them in battle considering they aided them back in TBC.
Isn't Garrosh's only advisor a Blood Elf Paladin? There was an Orc Shaman as well, who turned out to be a Twilight Cultist.

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
I ask, what has the Horde done for the Blood Elves =)?
Left them in peace and granted them vengeance against the Alliance (who they considered betrayed them) and the Scourge.

When it comes down to it, I don't think the people of Quel'thalas really WANTS to be involved with the politics of the world. I think they are perfectly happy with having their beloved, undying lands and their Sunwell back.

The one pressing them now is Sylvanas. The Forsaken are quickly proving to be a nuisance for the Sin'dorei, now that they've outlived their usefulness.

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Originally Posted by Crazyterran View Post
To bad that's been retconned out of Zul'gurub? The temple isn't even there anymore T_T.
It... Hasn't?

Zul'Gurub is not a retcon, it's a continuation. The events of vanilla ZG still occured. Did you not do the questline to unlock both heroics?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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  #1412  
Old 10-26-2011, 10:46 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by Yakitori View Post
http://www.wowpedia.org/Blood_elf#Population

That's about the best I could find that's still canon; the only other numbers (as in, for a solid count) I could find were from the RPG books.
This person knows how to do it. The cited source is this:

http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/encyclopedia/338.xml

It's official lore.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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  #1413  
Old 10-26-2011, 10:50 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
This person knows how to do it. The cited source is this:

http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/encyclopedia/338.xml

It's official lore.
*Shrugs*

You and I -have- had the argument before. Its why I really have no inclination to get into it with you or anyone else, though its refreshing to see something finally put down on that count.
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  #1414  
Old 10-26-2011, 10:53 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Why does the Encyclopedia only have Elf stuff on there? It's like the idea was conceived by an Elf fangirl who, upon finishing the stuff for the Night Elves and Blood Elves decided "Meh, this is enough."
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  #1415  
Old 10-26-2011, 10:54 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Why does the Encyclopedia only have Elf stuff on there? It's like the idea was conceived by an Elf fangirl who, upon finishing the stuff for the Night Elves and Blood Elves decided "Meh, this is enough."
You haven't heard?

The premise for all Warcraft lore is thus:

Once there were elves.

Then, an elf became insane.

*World of Warcraft Expansion ensues*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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  #1416  
Old 10-26-2011, 10:55 AM
Yuber8900 Yuber8900 is offline

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
The Highborn were so used to having godly power and their beck and call that, without the Well of Eternity, they have to struggle immensely to cast spells, supposedly resulting in much amusement for the Belf NPC's who are monitoring the nelf mages in Azshara. Rhonin, meanwhile, was a trained human mage - he actually had to wield magic rather than just calling upon it and casting it.
This.... doesn't make sense so I'll assume it's some sort of stupid thing in Cataclysm.

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
The Blood Elves have had 7 000 years to cast magic without the Well of Eternity, and it's still a majorly imbued aspect of their entire society and civilization. Can there be powerful human mages? Of course. Can they be more powerful than even the most skilled blood elf magister? Naturally.
No, the High Elves relied on the Sunwell to cast their spells. Then the Blood Elves used demon siphoning to power themselves. Now they're both relying on the Sunwell, again.

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
The Horde has prospered ever since WC3, however, whereas the Alliance has only suffered and diminished.

That's 10 years.
And the Horde was diminished after War2.

And Humans were diminished after War1.

Both sides are always in the exact same wars. Both sides should be diminished. Instead apparently the Alliance is hemorrhaging workpower while the Horde sits pretty?
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  #1417  
Old 10-26-2011, 11:01 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Well, in Warcraft 3, the Alliance lost a massive amount of its human population, considering that Lordaeron was the heart of human civilization at the time and essentially the "Europe" of Warcraft, and at the time Stormwind was only just being recolonized.

It's sorta like, imagine if the Black Death hadn't occurred in the Middle Ages and instead occurred during the Age of Discovery when the Americas were starting to be colonized, and the Black Death was a hundred times more potent.

The Horde did have their numbers reduced by the losses of the Second War and the malaise of the internment camps, but keep in mind that upon arriving on Kalimdor their numbers were bolstered substantially by the addition of the Tauren and Trolls to the Horde. Yes, it still wasn't that much, but Warcraft 3 was basically a period of making the Alliance weaker and the Horde stronger in order to make the balance of power more "even."
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You are right Fojar.
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  #1418  
Old 10-26-2011, 11:03 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by Yuber8900 View Post
This.... doesn't make sense so I'll assume it's some sort of stupid thing in Cataclysm.
A couple of Blood Elf questgivers in Azshara, outside of Orgrimmar, are monitoring a group of hostile night elf mage NPCs. They comment on how ridiculously clumsy the night elf mages are and then proceed to give out quests to play pranks on the poor sods.

It's indeed added with patch 4.0

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Originally Posted by Yuber8900 View Post
No, the High Elves relied on the Sunwell to cast their spells. Then the Blood Elves used demon siphoning to power themselves. Now they're both relying on the Sunwell, again.
The Sunwell can't measure up to the Well of Eternity, however. Even without the Sunwell, the Blood Elves are capable of casting magic; they are able to chant incantations, perform rituals and follow strict and complex instructions to weave their spells.

In short - they can cast magic "the human way", whereas the Highborn of ancient Kalimdor were so used to just call upon mana to cast their spells, that they never really evolved magically. Thus a human mage, like Rhonin, who HAD training in how to cast magic, became incredibly powerful when bestowed with a source like the Well of Eternity to draw upon.

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Originally Posted by Yuber8900 View Post
And the Horde was diminished after War2.

And Humans were diminished after War1.
Naturally. But Warcraft 3 actually broke several Alliance kingdoms, whereas the Orcs had none to be broken on Azeroth. Their power has been consolidated into kingdoms only after the third war, whereas they've previously not been established. This goes for the Tauren and Trolls as well.

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Originally Posted by Yuber8900 View Post
Both sides are always in the exact same wars. Both sides should be diminished. Instead apparently the Alliance is hemorrhaging workpower while the Horde sits pretty?
The Alliance were already established as nations and powers before the first war, and they've only lost land since the wars began. Whatever land in the Eastern Kingdoms that they've gained, is merely land they've re-gained.

The Orcs, on the other hand, have had no land on EK to lose in the first place. The Third War has been a clean slate for them to found their nation and start building - and from the Third War and forwards today, the Orcish Horde has gained more land than it has lost, whereas the Alliance has diminished in power and influence from its previous pre-WC1 state.

This is how I see it. Do you disagree with me?
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Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

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  #1419  
Old 10-26-2011, 11:34 AM
Yuber8900 Yuber8900 is offline

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
A couple of Blood Elf questgivers in Azshara, outside of Orgrimmar, are monitoring a group of hostile night elf mage NPCs. They comment on how ridiculously clumsy the night elf mages are and then proceed to give out quests to play pranks on the poor sods.

It's indeed added with patch 4.0
But... that doesn't make sense. Were these night elves trapped in some time vortex for 10k years and haven't cast a single spell since the War? Shit, gimme the link I need to read up on this crap.

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
The Sunwell can't measure up to the Well of Eternity, however. Even without the Sunwell, the Blood Elves are capable of casting magic; they are able to chant incantations, perform rituals and follow strict and complex instructions to weave their spells.
Without the Sunwell they're in constant danger of turning into Wretched if they can't control themselves. They may be able to, but it is a risk and a human can/match surpass a Wellless Elf without the magic addiction danger.

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
Naturally. But Warcraft 3 actually broke several Alliance kingdoms, whereas the Orcs had none to be broken on Azeroth. Their power has been consolidated into kingdoms only after the third war, whereas they've previously not been established. This goes for the Tauren and Trolls as well.

The Alliance were already established as nations and powers before the first war, and they've only lost land since the wars began. Whatever land in the Eastern Kingdoms that they've gained, is merely land they've re-gained.

The Orcs, on the other hand, have had no land on EK to lose in the first place. The Third War has been a clean slate for them to found their nation and start building - and from the Third War and forwards today, the Orcish Horde has gained more land than it has lost, whereas the Alliance has diminished in power and influence from its previous pre-WC1 state.

This is how I see it. Do you disagree with me?
The Tauren's center of power just shifted a few miles eastward really. Trolls... well frankly I'm reminded of their constant exiles. Beaten around by other Jungle Troll tribes, beaten around by some Alliance base, captured by bloody murlocs. Their newest home was only recently reclaimed. They aren't exactly a race that can be counted as a major power.

Does not Outland count? Sure, the Horde has Kalimdor now(and have new settlements in Outland), but they lost an entire planet, and the Alliance did claim new ground there. And while the Alliance did lose the northen EK, they also gained their own parts in Kalimdor. Night Elves, Theramore. Both sides gained in Northerend as well.

Also, just because the Horde has gained land, does not mean everything. Their industrial and military bases should be just as taxed as the Alliance's(moreso with the requirements to control new land).
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  #1420  
Old 10-26-2011, 11:35 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Warcraft 3 was basically a period of making the Alliance weaker and the Horde stronger in order to make the balance of power more "even."
I don't think the Blizzard writers though about any "balance of power" between Horde and Alliance back then. At the end of TFT I expected the new major players to be Scourge, Legion and what was left of Illidan's allied forces, not Theramore, Forsaken or the Horde. It was WoW that shifted the story back to Horde vs Alliance and was trapped in the need for "balance of power".

Heck, now I'm annoyed by Alliance and the Horde.
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Old 10-26-2011, 11:54 AM
Meta Meta is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
I don't think the Blizzard writers though about any "balance of power" between Horde and Alliance back then. At the end of TFT I expected the new major players to be Scourge, Legion and what was left of Illidan's allied forces, not Theramore, Forsaken or the Horde. It was WoW that shifted the story back to Horde vs Alliance and was trapped in the need for "balance of power".

Heck, now I'm annoyed by Alliance and the Horde.
We share the same opinion then.

To me it was clear in TFT that both Horde and Alliance would have to share (in a bloody and violent way, of course) their respective territories with the Illidari, Scourge and Forsaken (the latter being a prime candidate for joining the Illidari). The story showed much promise when it went far beyond the boundaries of WC1 and WC2, only to come back to the same old dualism in WoW.

While I do like the current Alliance vs Horde conflict to an extent, it wasn't how I thought Warcraft would be developed, and I think they missed a tremendous opportunity of vastly expanding the franchise by ignoring the premises that made WC3 so interesting. So, yeah, in the end both factions annoy me.
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Old 10-26-2011, 12:01 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Meta View Post
We share the same opinion then.

To me it was clear in TFT that both Horde and Alliance would have to share (in a bloody and violent way, of course) their respective territories with the Illidari, Scourge and Forsaken (the latter being a prime candidate for joining the Illidari). The story showed much promise when it went far beyond the boundaries of WC1 and WC2, only to come back to the same old dualism in WoW.

While I do like the current Alliance vs Horde conflict to an extent, it wasn't how I thought Warcraft would be developed, and I think they missed a tremendous opportunity of vastly expanding the franchise by ignoring the premises that made WC3 so interesting. So, yeah, in the end both factions annoy me.
When I first started WoW and saw "Alliance vs Horde" and "Undead" in the Horde list, my jaw dropped. I thought: "No way they are making the Horde "evil" again. How could Thrall let the Scourge in?" I even forgot abouth such faction as the Forsaken. Night Elves surprised me too.

Kind of funny to see Alliance and Horde now as two bossy superpowers that kill everyone who goes against their dualistic rule over the world, when in TFT both ended on a verge of destruction, feeling lucky that they have survived and beat the Legion.
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  #1423  
Old 10-26-2011, 12:16 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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A couple of Blood Elf questgivers in Azshara, outside of Orgrimmar, are monitoring a group of hostile night elf mage NPCs. They comment on how ridiculously clumsy the night elf mages are and then proceed to give out quests to play pranks on the poor sods.

It's indeed added with patch 4.0
Hold on a second.

The spells they cast were powerful. They were just behind the times on regulations (which by the way, is bull shit and goes directly against what was said in The Last Guardian as far as rules of magic constantly changing, but hey, retcon). Even the Blood Elf had mentioned that their constructs and such were powerful

Second, those mages were not battle mages. One was a lore-keeper, and the others were her students.

Frankly, it doesn't make sense that the Highborn are so bad at magic considering how many blood elves still long after highborn relics and spells and information. And considering that the Highborn had outside contact.
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  #1424  
Old 10-26-2011, 12:19 PM
Shattersnap Shattersnap is offline

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Originally Posted by Meta View Post
We share the same opinion then.

To me it was clear in TFT that both Horde and Alliance would have to share (in a bloody and violent way, of course) their respective territories with the Illidari, Scourge and Forsaken (the latter being a prime candidate for joining the Illidari). The story showed much promise when it went far beyond the boundaries of WC1 and WC2, only to come back to the same old dualism in WoW.

While I do like the current Alliance vs Horde conflict to an extent, it wasn't how I thought Warcraft would be developed, and I think they missed a tremendous opportunity of vastly expanding the franchise by ignoring the premises that made WC3 so interesting. So, yeah, in the end both factions annoy me.
The problem with the War3 formula of an "uneasy peace" between the two player factions is that you can only have a cold war for so long before it either fizzles out or boils over. You can't have the two superpowers antagonizing and needling each other over their hatreds from times past without them eventually coming to blows or else it will quickly pass a point of unbelievability. People start thinking, "ok, why do these guys hate each other again? They haven't actually fought each other in 20ish years and they are always working together to beat a common enemy, you'd think they would understand one another a little better by now." The only reason the USA and the USSR never came to blows was because of mutually assured destruction, and since nukes don't exist (yet) in Azeroth the Alliance and Horde don't have that to hold them back.

I think it makes perfect sense for the Alliance and Horde to go back to a state of war. Having the neutral faction du jour wagging its finger at us while lecturing how we need to get along FOR THE GREATER GOOD while fighting against the new big bad of the week was getting old. I like the idea of the drama of a war with two legit sides rather than tag-teaming an unambiguously evil supervillian.
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  #1425  
Old 10-26-2011, 12:29 PM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
Hold on a second.

The spells they cast were powerful. They were just behind the times on regulations (which by the way, is bull shit and goes directly against what was said in The Last Guardian as far as rules of magic constantly changing, but hey, retcon). Even the Blood Elf had mentioned that their constructs and such were powerful

Second, those mages were not battle mages. One was a lore-keeper, and the others were her students.

Frankly, it doesn't make sense that the Highborn are so bad at magic considering how many blood elves still long after highborn relics and spells and information. And considering that the Highborn had outside contact.
I think this goes under two assumptions.

1) The Highborne of Eldre'thalas were immortal with the rest of the Night Elves (which I think they are).
2) There are surviving Highborne from over 10,000 years ago.

So, with those two fulfilled, I still think that the Highborne would probably very likely -jealously- safeguard the secrets of the past. While the Night Elves have the chance to learn from these ancient and knowledgable magic, they -are- making mistakes which the Blood Elves are only too happy to prank, but are likely very -deeply- anxious about, wary of yet -another- visit from the Legion.
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