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  #1651  
Old 10-29-2011, 09:25 PM
Jiwat Jiwat is offline

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Originally Posted by Tauren Paly View Post
Thrall later shows in himself that he felt he failed the horde by choosing Garrosh, and it would lead to ruin. his raw emotions brought on my the elemental split, but they were real.
His rage avatar also contained a declaration of war that makes Garrosh sound soft. So if we're going to accept all the Elemental Bonds quotes as what he really thinks, then Thrall supports an all-out war with the Alliance as well.

I'm not exactly sure what you dislike Garrosh for precisely, but it seems to be for being an agitator and warmonger. But by your own standard above it seems Thrall would be one too if he wasn't too busy, and Thrall also recruited the goblins whose entire culture is arming for war and seemingly creating causes for war if there's none to be fought.
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  #1652  
Old 10-29-2011, 09:37 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Shutting the fuck up about what? You're not making too much sense here.
Sorry, I meant HAD HE KEPT HIS MOUTH SHUT and the fight in Dalaran could have been avoided as that fight there was the cataylst so subsequent war declaration.


Yeah, they may make things interesting, but wouldnt mind if both of them died Gadhafi style

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  #1653  
Old 10-29-2011, 09:48 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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His rage avatar also contained a declaration of war that makes Garrosh sound soft. So if we're going to accept all the Elemental Bonds quotes as what he really thinks, then Thrall supports an all-out war with the Alliance as well.

I'm not exactly sure what you dislike Garrosh for precisely, but it seems to be for being an agitator and warmonger. But by your own standard above it seems Thrall would be one too if he wasn't too busy, and Thrall also recruited the goblins whose entire culture is arming for war and seemingly creating causes for war if there's none to be fought.
people are quick to underestimate Thrall on what he aimmed at. He wanted peace, but it became obvious in recent years because of Varian and his want for war against the horde, Thrall attempting to maintain that, and then going so far that Varian tried to kill him in undercity (don't give a piss about Varians reasons), that broke what Thrall tried to achieve.
To anyone who stood there entire leadership trying to maintain something, and then seeing it break apart, thats enough to cause deep seedd emotions in anyone. And if inside himself Thrall thought yes, maybe war is the answer, then thats what it was.

A lot of people really do not understand the elemental bonds quest chain well. What people don't get, is that Thrall had this deep seeded emotions with him all the time, but these emotions alway played off of each other. Imagine you have this firey want to do something drastic, but then another part of you convinces yourself not to, because of doubts. Thralls emotions played off of each other for years, and when he was torn apart, those emotions showed what was there, without the constraints of other emotions to conflict with them. Thrall wanted peace, but in his rage he was prepared to go to war, he wanted a family, but felt inside he failed those around him.

People just didn't get the depth of those emotions.

But hey, maybe thats why people like Garrosh more, because he's such a cardboard characeter, its easier for people to understand a character without real depth and emotion.
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  #1654  
Old 10-29-2011, 10:06 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by GenyaArikado View Post
Sorry, I meant HAD HE KEPT HIS MOUTH SHUT and the fight in Dalaran could have been avoided as that fight there was the cataylst so subsequent war declaration.


Yeah, they may make things interesting, but wouldnt mind if both of them died Gadhafi style
I still don't follow. What did Thrall say that sparked whatever it is you're purporting? If you mean that he shouldn't have brought Garrosh to that meeting then I would have to disagree because Garrosh was an important commander at that time and Thrall wanted him to learn more about diplomacy. That's exactly why he kept bringing Garrosh to important meetings. And Garrosh does understand diplomacy as he has made friends with the Tuskarr in Northrend and the like.

Either way, if you think they should die then I simply disagree and find that silly. It's on the same level as fanboys wanting Sylvanas to die just because she adds fire to the game's story that they simply can't handle.
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  #1655  
Old 10-29-2011, 11:20 PM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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Garrosh is a character with a lot of interesting potential development. More so than a number of other characters that people seem to like more. It would be a shame to see him die without that being realized.

Though that assumes people actually give it a chance.
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  #1656  
Old 10-29-2011, 11:29 PM
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Tauren Paly: We get it. You don't like Garrosh.
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  #1657  
Old 10-30-2011, 12:11 AM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Tauren Paly: We get it. You don't like Garrosh.
The story forum people have a thing with having to remind you every post about who they don't like.
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  #1658  
Old 10-30-2011, 12:15 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I'm wondering what's going to happen in the swamp due to the event... there are Grimtotem towns... so I'm distantly hoping we might see a GLIMPSE of Magatha...
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  #1659  
Old 10-30-2011, 12:27 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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The story forum people have a thing with having to remind you every post about who they don't like.
I don't do that, do I?

I came from the Story Forums.
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  #1660  
Old 10-30-2011, 12:28 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I don't do that, do I?

I came from the Story Forums.
As far as I recall, no you haven't.
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  #1661  
Old 10-30-2011, 12:41 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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As far as I recall, no you haven't.
I'm not trying hard enough.

I HATE THE HEADLESS HORSEMAN, HE DOESNT DROP THE HELM FOR MY WARRIOR. MY MAGE, ROGUE, DRUID HAVE ALL GOTTEN IT, BUT MY WARRIOR?

ALSO, WHO THOUGHT OF THE HEADLESS HORSEMAN? HE HAS NO BACKSTORY! SERIOUSLY!
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  #1662  
Old 10-30-2011, 12:42 AM
Anasterian Anasterian is offline

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Originally Posted by Crazyterran View Post
I'm not trying hard enough.

I HATE THE HEADLESS HORSEMAN, HE DOESNT DROP THE HELM FOR MY WARRIOR. MY MAGE, ROGUE, DRUID HAVE ALL GOTTEN IT, BUT MY WARRIOR?

ALSO, WHO THOUGHT OF THE HEADLESS HORSEMAN? HE HAS NO BACKSTORY! SERIOUSLY!
B...But he does have a backstory.
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  #1663  
Old 10-30-2011, 12:59 AM
Yakitori Yakitori is offline

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Garrosh is a character with a lot of interesting potential development. More so than a number of other characters that people seem to like more. It would be a shame to see him die without that being realized.

Though that assumes people actually give it a chance.
And that, I think, is where the problem ultimately was. Back in TBC, players seemed to remember Garrosh more for being a whiny, defeatist dink with daddy issues; nobody seems to remember that Garrosh's main issue was that his father had led the orcs into damnation by being the first to drink the demon blood, and he was afraid that if he had to lead his people, he would make the same mistakes and repeat the cycle. That's why, once Thrall showed him that Grom had slain Mannoroth and freed the orcs from his curse, his personality changed; if his father had redeemed his people and himself, maybe he wouldn't be doomed to repeat his mistakes.

And then in Wrath, suddenly Garrosh was an arrogant sack of crap; he had no reason to really respect the Alliance at this point (as his constant hounding of Varian proved), and I think it's safe to say that he was taking his being Mag'har for granted. Otherwise, it's kinda hard to argue against this, although Heart of War did show that he was slowly catching on to being a leader. But either way, Garrosh didn't really endear himself to a lot of people... and I think it has started to really show. Remember in BlizzCon '10, when they said that they were going to make Garrosh into a leader we'd all respect?

Yeah.

The truth is, I think that Blizzard really fucked this up; the writing for Garrosh since Cata has tended to bounce wildly back and forth - compare Heart of War, The Shattering, and Wolfheart to As Our Fathers Before Us and Edge of Night, and then to his in-game portrayal in Stonetalon, the Twilight Highlands, his interaction with Vol'jin, his interaction with Sylvanas in Silverpine... it's really all over the place. It has been since the transition into Wrath, and by that point, most people made up their minds on him as a character. Metzen's comments that all Garrosh thought was "Kill kill kill kill!" says it all; Blizzard tried to make Garrosh likeable, but the ways they went about it were all kinds of wrong, the writing for him was wildly inconsistent (although the one consistent thing has been his drive for the Horde - in Kalimdor, at any rate - to win honorably and to not go down the same path that the Old Horde went down, hence why he had players kill the guy who had them corrupt the Forest Heart, and why he killed Krom'gar for his colossal fuck ups), and now, because the fans are still so against him, they've more or less given up entirely.

And finally... people say that Garrosh is too bloodthirsty and warmongering, but how is that any different than Grom? Grom might have been the smarter (or at least more experienced) warrior, but in the end, they both clearly loved to get their murder on, and Garrosh is trying to balance that blood lust with actually having responsibility for the entire Horde, something that Grom never had to deal with. His clan? Sure. But the Warsong were all loyal to him; Garrosh doesn't quite have that luxury with the trolls (who he has no respect for, having needed 6+ years to reclaim their islands from one witch doctor), the Forsaken (who he clearly doesn't trust after the Wrathgate, has no love for Sylvanas, and whose methods go wildly against his own code of honor), or the blood elves (I guess?). Further, Baine isn't exactly his biggest fan (if AoFBU is any indication), and Gallywix oozes slightly more slime than the slimes in Un'goro... yeah, I don't really picture Grom working very well with that either, do you?

*shrug* I guess it could be worse, though. They could be led by Obould Many-Arrows... actually, that'd be pretty cool, Obould was surprisingly bad ass... oh, he could be Sting! The one from wrestling, not the singer.
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  #1664  
Old 10-30-2011, 01:07 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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B...But he does have a backstory.
HE'S A SHELL! FOR DROPPING LOOT!

But I got to give him this, his rhymes are dope.

(I kid, I kid. His back story is that he's a fallen knight, no? Something like that. )

Garrosh has been suffering from "Too many cooks in the kitchen". Each author/writer has their own interpretation of Garrosh, and due to Metzen's disinterest in the character, has probably been jumping all over the place. If he didn't really put his foot down like he would for a character like Malfurion, Thrall or Varian...
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  #1665  
Old 10-30-2011, 01:55 AM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Originally Posted by Crazyterran View Post
HE'S A SHELL! FOR DROPPING LOOT!

But I got to give him this, his rhymes are dope.

(I kid, I kid. His back story is that he's a fallen knight, no? Something like that. )
The Warcraft: Legends manga actually had a whole chapter devoted the horseman's origin called "A Cleansing Fire". He was a member of the Scarlet Crusade that went mad and butchered his own family, believing them to be undead. He then became convinced that he was the only truly living person left in the world and rampaged through the Scarlet Monastery. Eventually he was captured and beheaded, then Balnazzar reanimated his headless corpse as a death knight.
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  #1666  
Old 10-30-2011, 02:14 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Crazyterran View Post
HE'S A SHELL! FOR DROPPING LOOT!

But I got to give him this, his rhymes are dope.

(I kid, I kid. His back story is that he's a fallen knight, no? Something like that. )

Garrosh has been suffering from "Too many cooks in the kitchen". Each author/writer has their own interpretation of Garrosh, and due to Metzen's disinterest in the character, has probably been jumping all over the place. If he didn't really put his foot down like he would for a character like Malfurion, Thrall or Varian...
Trick or treat... motherfucker! /BustaRhymes
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  #1667  
Old 10-30-2011, 02:18 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Found some real life footage of the Headless Horseman before he died.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qBOfzJVI7M
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  #1668  
Old 10-30-2011, 02:24 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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The only way for those NE fans to be satisfied is if there is a complete lack of Horde presence in Ashenvale.

ETA: Dividing up or establishing a compromise in Stonetalon and the Barrens is far more complicated.
All in all, its fairly reasonable. Due to the nature of the game, Ashenvale will never be fully held by Night Elves again. It also doesn't make much sense for the Orcs to win in a long war against the Night Elves....But it also doesn't make much sense for the Orcs to make NO headway into Ashenvale at all.

While your idea gives both sides some feel good moments, as well as keeping the balance in check.

And of course, by Orcs and Night Elves, I mean the Horde powers and the Alliance powers in the area, and not just the Orcs and the Night Elves.

Of course, personally, I wouldn't mind giving up more of Ashenvale for a concrete hold on Feralas and parts of thousand needles.

With the loss of Theramore, it would really be cool if Shandris and her army march through Feralas, into Thousand Needles, and straight up into the Barrens. Stone Giants vs Magnataur... It could be fun

To avoid the "omg night elves are god" fanboy misconceptions, the reason I say it doesn't make sense is because Worgen and Night Elves are much better suited for forest combat than Orcs.

Orcs have Goblins, Tauren, Trolls, and of course themselves in that area.
Night Elves have Draenei, Worgen, Humans, themselves, and their other, non Alliance allies like the Furbolg and Dryads and such.
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  #1669  
Old 10-30-2011, 03:03 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Of course, personally, I wouldn't mind giving up more of Ashenvale for a concrete hold on Feralas and parts of thousand needles.

With the loss of Theramore, it would really be cool if Shandris and her army march through Feralas, into Thousand Needles, and straight up into the Barrens. Stone Giants vs Magnataur... It could be fun
How far would the night elves (and their stone giants) march into the 1K Needles before realizing that it's almost entirely underwater now?
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  #1670  
Old 10-30-2011, 03:14 AM
tufy tufy is offline

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All in all, its fairly reasonable. Due to the nature of the game, Ashenvale will never be fully held by Night Elves again. It also doesn't make much sense for the Orcs to win in a long war against the Night Elves....But it also doesn't make much sense for the Orcs to make NO headway into Ashenvale at all.
Agreed. The biggest problem I see with Ashenvale war is that Night Elves appear as pansies. I mean, remember Warcraft III, where they almost kicked the living crap out of experienced Warsong clan? Yet now, their leaders (I'm looking at you, Tyrande!) are sitting in Teldrassil while Horde is advancing almost unchecked. I'd expect elven ambushes, counterattacks, tree allies bombarding, etc. all over Ashenvale, not like two trees at Splintertree and there's that. Even Azshara sees more night elven action :/

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Of course, personally, I wouldn't mind giving up more of Ashenvale for a concrete hold on Feralas and parts of thousand needles.
Truth be told, I'm not sure what Night Elves are even doing in Feralas, other than it being a forest. I mean, there's Stonetalon and Desolace in between, hardly seeing any of their presence, then suddenly Feralas that has more of them than Ashenvale and Felwood combined :p

I'd rather see full war in Ashenvale and have Feralas as a border exploration zone, tbh.
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  #1671  
Old 10-30-2011, 03:36 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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The Warcraft: Legends manga actually had a whole chapter devoted the horseman's origin called "A Cleansing Fire". He was a member of the Scarlet Crusade that went mad and butchered his own family, believing them to be undead. He then became convinced that he was the only truly living person left in the world and rampaged through the Scarlet Monastery. Eventually he was captured and beheaded, then Balnazzar reanimated his headless corpse as a death knight.
Thank you. Never read the Warcraft: Legends, or most of the manga/comics. Don't do it for me, I'm afraid. While I like some of the artwork, I generally have a distaste for anime/manga.

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Truth be told, I'm not sure what Night Elves are even doing in Feralas, other than it being a forest. I mean, there's Stonetalon and Desolace in between, hardly seeing any of their presence, then suddenly Feralas that has more of them than Ashenvale and Felwood combined :p

I'd rather see full war in Ashenvale and have Feralas as a border exploration zone, tbh.
I imagine they are hanging out in Feralas, originally, to keep an eye on the Highbourne, and because it's a nice lovely forest near one of their nice lovely Emerald Dream portals.
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  #1672  
Old 10-30-2011, 03:49 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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How far would the night elves (and their stone giants) march into the 1K Needles before realizing that it's almost entirely underwater now?
Pssh, they just need really big boats.

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Truth be told, I'm not sure what Night Elves are even doing in Feralas, other than it being a forest. I mean, there's Stonetalon and Desolace in between, hardly seeing any of their presence, then suddenly Feralas that has more of them than Ashenvale and Felwood combined :p

I'd rather see full war in Ashenvale and have Feralas as a border exploration zone, tbh.
I don't know.. The RPG said it was just Shandris going and exploring new land or something. I would like to think that it was her setting up a camp to watch for Silithid activity.
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Old 10-30-2011, 03:55 AM
Evilglad Evilglad is offline

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Agreed. The biggest problem I see with Ashenvale war is that Night Elves appear as pansies. I mean, remember Warcraft III, where they almost kicked the living crap out of experienced Warsong clan? Yet now, their leaders (I'm looking at you, Tyrande!) are sitting in Teldrassil while Horde is advancing almost unchecked. I'd expect elven ambushes, counterattacks, tree allies bombarding, etc. all over Ashenvale, not like two trees at Splintertree and there's that. Even Azshara sees more night elven action :/



Truth be told, I'm not sure what Night Elves are even doing in Feralas, other than it being a forest. I mean, there's Stonetalon and Desolace in between, hardly seeing any of their presence, then suddenly Feralas that has more of them than Ashenvale and Felwood combined :p

I'd rather see full war in Ashenvale and have Feralas as a border exploration zone, tbh.

To keep an eye on the highbourne of Eldre thalas I suppose. Now what I really find strange what the Alliance is doing in Desolace. it seems so incredibly out of place, I never found it logical.

In WoW classic you had the scarlet emissary sending you on a quest to kill undead that are not scourge undead nowhere near Lordearon and we have no IDEA what the point of it is.
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Old 10-30-2011, 06:57 AM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Tauren Paly: We get it. You don't like Garrosh.
oh sure why don't I just feed someone elses posts about there dislike of forsaken instead?
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Old 10-30-2011, 07:03 AM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Garrosh has been suffering from "Too many cooks in the kitchen". Each author/writer has their own interpretation of Garrosh, and due to Metzen's disinterest in the character, has probably been jumping all over the place. If he didn't really put his foot down like he would for a character like Malfurion, Thrall or Varian...
Try and look at it any other way, but perhaps people here simply can not accept that Garrosh was created for one purpose, to be the antagonist, to both the alliance and within the horde. He is the same breed of character like general garithos. People are drawn by the aggressive nature of the character, that they can't see beyond it and realise how in every story, he is seen as the one causing and stiring shit up, THAT is the only thing he does in the stories.

Metzen at least knows this, its obvious this is how Garrosh will be used. He isn't here to be developed into a stable figure capable of bringing races together, he's a tool of war.

(people complain that I keep repeating this, but the real question is why am I having to?)
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