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Old 09-02-2017, 09:30 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Panda Legion - The Review so far

(iGod liked a tweet, blame him! )

I'm posting this in it's own thread because A there's nothing really going on in this subforum anyway, and B i'd like to see if people generally agree or disagree.

1.) Legion's Theme

I'm currently well into my second month of returning to Legion. I first played it for a few days relatively early into the expansion, and having still been pissed at Orclords of Orcland it did very little to endear itself to me. I loved the Gladiator Stance, something that was overdue since Vanilla at the latest, and some little hickups aside i felt that the Garrison was a logical evolution of my beloved Sunsong Ranch. Other than that... Draenor really failed on every level. For me more than most people, and most people already generally seem to regard Warlords as the worst expansion so far. 'least i don't feel alone on this one.

Now, i'm a sucker for the Burning Legion. I was much MORE of a sucker for the Scourge, but that one's dunso until Bolvar gets his own little expansion so like the last human on SOMA's earth i'll have to settle for Second Best, and the Legion has been an expansion in progress since The Burning Crusade. Just, y'know, enjoyably delayed by Arthas and Pandas, and frustratingly delayed by Orcs and more Orcs.
Point is: i like the Legion so the selfnamed expansion was always going to be relevant to my interests lorewise. Also Draenei. FINALLY some actual, honest to Elune Draenei Content. (Alternate Universe Past Draenei do. not. count.)

It took surprisngly long for Demon Fatigue to set in, at least for me. Demons offer an enjoyable variety of enemy NPCs, though i have to admit that the new Legion-demons have so far failed to impress me. What i DIDN'T count on was TERRAIN Fatigue. We'll have a talk about that in the 7.2 and 7.3 sections but here's a spoiler: i'm still colorblind. Fel-infested areas, like the Broken Shore, or Argus, have the same problem i had in, say, Firelands: everything's the same dark brown, almost black color, with the occasional green/yellow-ish lava and/or fire in between. That wasn't much of a problem in the leveling zones, where that kind of nonsense was not only quaranteened in little sub zones, but also served as a strong visual exposition: "Look at the rest of this zone, now look at this shit. We need to fix this."
All in all i like what they do with the Legion in Legion (this isn't gonna get old or weird to type and read down the line or anything...), i just wish they'd put a little more effort into it on the visual side.

Now, speaking of themes, i should adress two more things before going into specifics. Well, three things: Illidan, the Class Orders and the attempt to recatch players after Boredomlords of Boredomland.

Illidan... never understood his popularity. Never understood why we killed him in Burning Crusade either, but seeing how TBC was before the time of WoW's storytelling... existing, i was willing to chalk that up to my inner Uther: "it's a raid, lad, don't think about it too much". Having Illidan now be redeemed or some shit... Honestly, the dude feels more villainous this expansion than he's ever done before, and i'm still pondering the questions if Blizzard wants me to like him or not. Because if they do, they failed spectacularly on that front. Incidentally i'm starting to warm up to Khadgar, oddly enough, i just wish he'd stop it with the puns. Of course, this starts to happen right before i find out that he's got at best a cameo on Argus. And i wish Blizzard would stop piling quests on him. Dude's carrying half a dozen yellow exclamation marks on my alts by now, that can't be healthy in the long run. But maybe that's how he gets his skin to look so young.

Class Orders will get their own little section further down; i'm not done with all of them yet but so far i'd say i've had more fun with them than not, depending on the class. I really love what they did there, even if i find that they didn't go far enough in some aspects... and i lamment the fact that we'll likely never get something like that again. 7.2 was a lesson in this regard.

And then, of course, there's the Call of Nostalgia (original expansion name, do not steal!).
Frankly, Stormheim and Highmountain (along with Dalaran, for that matter) give me all the right vibes, and if i liked elves content (spoiler: i don't), Azuna, Suramar and Val'Sharah would probably be right up my alley too. In fact, until Argus and the Broken Shore came along, there was no questing zone in Legion that i outright disliked visually OR thematically. (I mean, i don't LIKE Azuna and Val'Sharah, but i don't HATE them.) Suramar, on the other hand, is a bit of a disaster in my oppinion, but we'll talk about that later on.
So, yeah. I'm a sucker for Wrath of the Lich King. Pandaland is still my favorite expansion, but that's just because it was SO GOOD until 5.3. (I mean, 5.2 is my favorite patch ever, and i HATE trolls AND mogu. IMO that says a lot about it's quality.) Naturally, everything reminding me of Lich King is going to get a nostalgia bonus, and it really paid off with me.
Enough to keep playing? I honestly don't know yet. My plan for the second time around, when i first had the idea to give Legion another chance, was to play every class and race to max level and experience the Class Order campaigns. I'm STILL working on that because goldmaking got me sidetracked, and i'm on my last four alts to level: Priest, Shaman, Druid and Rogue, historically pretty much the four classes i like the least. Demon (well... it's probably more fair to call it Argus Fatigue) is slowly starting to set in and i'm kind of getting sick of World Quests. But that too has it's own little section down below.

Basically, if you're here out of curiousity about my oppinion on Legion, but don't like A to read long walls of texts, B me or C both, here's the TL / DR: Legion is barely enough, almost too late. It's THIS CLOSE to being a great expansion, but some of Blizzard's more dickish decisions keep it from greatness. What Legion is is, frankly, average. I'd probably stick it somewhere between Cataclysm and TBC.
(In case you're wondering: my list would go, from best to worst
Mists of Pandaria -> Wrath of the Lich King -> Cataclysm's Old World Revamp -> The Burning Crusade -> Legion -> Classic Old World content -> Cataclysm's End Game content -> Warlords of Draenor)
And the nostalgia, along with the Class Orders, are basically example A and B as to why it's not lower on the totem pole.


2.) Leveling Zones and Leveling Time

I suppose this will be a rather short section, as there's really not thaaat much for me to say about it. I like quests, there's a good number of quests. They generally won't win any originality-contents but at least they're not as dull as Draenor's questing. This is actually something you may or may not hear a lot in this post, unless i can contain myself: a lot of "At least it's not as bad as X in Warlords". There ARE perks to following the worst one of the bunch, i guess.

As you know the mysteriously unsunken Broken Isles (which should really be called the Rather Intact Isle) has four leveling zones: Azuna, Val'Sharah, Highmountain and Stormheim. On the one hand i think we can all agree that that's a rather low amount. On the other hand they offer a goodsized chunk of content, are fairly diverse, visually pleasing (though Azuna and Val'Sharah could have done better in all of those aspects) and what we got with the Class Orders makes me forgive the exclusion of more places. Yes, when there's an actual, good reason for things i'm willing to forgive them. Shocking, i know.

What DOES rub me the wrong way is the scaling technology used in Legion, and the effects it had on the 100-110 content.
I actually DO get what they were going for here: instead of one long campaign we're more like an emergency task force this time around.
This has good and bad effects. For example, it does allow to wrap up one or two zones' main storyline in their entirety during the leveling process; in Legion, you don't just hit the equivalent of 68, say good bye to a perplexed Shattari questgiver and fuck off to Northrend, if you get my meaning.
But it also means that, frankly, all of the attacks in the Broken Isles feel kind of... small? Evidently this is all more or less supposed to happen at the same time, but all that really does is make it look and feel as if the residents have generally no trouble keeping an all-Azeroth-involving demon invasion at bay until our adventures find the time to stop by and take care of a broken axel or something. There is, to be blunt, no urgency in this expansion, and that really does feel wrong. After the DISASTER that was the Broken Front the inhabitants of the Broken Isles should be pissing and shitting themselfs until we arrive. Otherwise, what's the point?

As for the leveling SPEED: i'm actually pretty alright with it... as long as it pertains to the actual LEGION content. 100-110 is a breeze, especially if you take advantage of Heirlooms and Legion Invasions. 1-100, though... i mean, let's be real here, this is a sub mmo in 2017 and they still have the nerve to demand 60 bucks for a caracter boost. At this point that shit's really supposed to be given out for free. YES, leveling alts has never been faster... but it's still 110 levels. And if you're doing what Legion REALLY wants you to do, level ALL the alts, it adds up. I'm SICK and FUCKING TIRED of leveling alts. This has never happened in any WoW expansion before; shit, in Wrath i leveled half a dozen Warriors to max level and had fun doing it. But at this point, it's just... it's too much.
And Legion DOES have one specific problem in this regard: i am ALSO sick and tired of intro quests. I'm sick of Khadgar's raven. I'm sick of the Suramar intro. I'm sick of the 7.2 scenario - thankfully they let you skip it now, which i find to be one of 7.3's more pressing successes.
And then there's the gating... i supposed we all agree on that, so i'll only talk about it briefly during the Class Order section. Speaking off...


3.) The Class Orders

I generally don't take any form of pride from the fact that my oppinions tend to be... contrarian to what the majority of people find to be the norm, but on occasion it both baffles and amuses me. The Garrison is one such topic: while i get SOME of the problems people had with it I have always wanted something like it in WoW. It was almost perfect.... on Alliance side, i can't stand Orc-architecture, but i take what i get.
As such i am both happy and sad about the Class Order Halls, as they generally take some of the worst ideas of the Garrison and leave the good parts out, but the questing content is (generally) good enough to keep me going.

I should probably mention that i have only completed the Class Campaigns of the Warrior, Edgelord Hunter, Regular Hunter, Edgelord Knight and Paladin. I'm ALMOST done with the Monk, almost ALMOST done with the Warlock and pretty far into the Mage (for the purposes of this list i include the 7.2 Mount quest lines). So i can only give you my oppinions about those; who knows, for all i know Priest, Shaman, Druid and Rogue all suck, but we'll see.

While they're usually way too short i appreciate that they took the time to come up with individual quests and weapons for EVERY. SINGLE. Spec in the game. That's a huge amount of work, if not content.
Sadly that led to a couple of "literally who" weapons, but i enjoy the concept of the Artefact Weapons too much for that to be a problem. (Artefact Weapons have OTHER problems though, like the fact that it takes a while to catch up an unleveled one, or transmog restrictions - i SWEAR transmog got some stealth nerfs in Legion)

As for the Class Order Campaigns... look. I get that no designer is ever going to like every class, or every class fantasy, for that matter. Or what Blizzard THINKS is a class fantasy; whoever designed the Warrior campaign must've been on drugs. And whoever did the Hunter didn't even phone it in, more like half-hangover'd sent a text message five minutes before the dead line.
Judging them fairly has become a little tricky to me as i struggle to find a balance between judging them by their quality and by their relevancy to the class it's supposed to represent. Skyhold in particular is troublesome for me: it's one of the most enjoyable quest lines in WoW's history, but has fuckall to do with Warriors or warrioring. It's literally making less sense than that one time Sam Witwicky went to Transformer Heaven for a hot minute. (Also: random Odyn cameo in the Hunter Mount scenario. For a guy stuck in his own throne room he gets around a lot.)
In the end i decided that, seeing how they're Class-themed, i would give the class fantasy-representation a higher value than actual content. Note that some of the campaigns do a better job at making you feel in charge than others, but i don't count that against them; the Paladin, for example, does EVERYTHING right (unless you're a Tauren and care for Sunwalker lore, i suppose) whereas the Warlock makes you the first among equals, and it kinda feels like it... and i flatout can't even remember anything from the Hunter campaign other than the mount quest. Yeah, no secret on that one, the Hunter is the only Class Order campaign i outright hate. Everyone else just gets... progressively less loved, i suppose. I AM a fan of the Class Orders, but the execution is a little lacking with some of them.

Here's my current list of favorites, ranging from most loved to least loved, followed by short reviews:
Paladin -> Monk -> Mage -> Warrior -> Death Knight -> Warlock -> Demon Hunter -> Hunter

Paladin: i'd say the Paladin team did absolutely everything right. Awesome quests, the goddamn Ashbringer, doesn't hurt that i really like Legion's Ret Paladin (to the point where i was briefly contemplating switching my main class from Warrior to Paladin) and if there's one Class Order campaign that TRUELY makes you feel like you're in charge, it's the Paladin's. EVERYTHING here works. Everything. I DO wish i could mount in the actual Hall but... eh, it's not THAT big. (Phrasing!)

Monk: Aaaaah, the Monk. Really not sure how that one.... okay, that's a lie, i totally know how this happened. It's Pandaria. Well, not alone, but a major contributor to the Monk's Order in my list is the fact that the Monk campaign makes HEAVY use of Pandaria locations, Pandaria themes (like brewing!) and Mists of Pandaria NPCs. It even has me mate Lorewalker Cho! I miss that guy so much...
Honestly, the main reason the Monk isn't higher up on the list is that... the monks don't really get much involvement in the plot. The monestary is attacked, you get promoted and off you go. And then there's some brewing storyline. And you get a hot Vrykul follower. Really, the Monk shines with Monk-themes, not Legion-themes. But shine it does, and it helps that i absolutely love the Legion-Windwalker. (Not a fan of Mistweaver, though, and i streightup have no idea how the Brewmaster's Stagger works.)
The Monk is also one of the few campaigns i've played so far that really hammers home that YOU are in charge.

Mage: Technically i haven't completed the Mage's storyline yet but from the undead mage guy to the Order Hall i absolutely adore everything here. The quests are fun, i got some recognizeable followers, really awesome. Shit, Legion actually manages to make me want to play ALL THREE Mage specs, and usually i don't really like any of them! (I then settled on Frost, mainly because of the issues related to Artefact weapons.)
However, the Mage is the first campaign in this list that starts to struggle a bit with some of it's aspects. While very Mage-y and fun overall i never got the impression that i was the big chief honcho around here - that's usually the undead mage that first welcomes you there. (Meryl Fel? Wait, let me google that, i actually like the guy.... ah, almost. Meryl Felstorm.) I don't REALLY mind that, but compared to other campaigns it does stick out. And i have to list them SOMEHOW.

Warrior: Oooh boy.
I mean, the quests themselfs are streightforward, but that's not necessarily always a problem. In fact, they're so good they're pretty much the main reason the Warrior doesn't end up further down the list.
But.
Vrykul Heaven. Vrykul Heaven? Really? Seriously? Blizzard REALLY couldn't come up with something better than VRYKUL HEAVEN for the Warriors?
Look. I get it, finding lore for Warriors might be challanging for Blizzard, but only because they probably didn't want a repeat of the Garrison, which, frankly, is exactly what the Warrior should have gotten. We're foot soldiers. I mean shit, take a look at city guards. Even the shitty dresswearing elves usually put Warriors in charge of protecting shit. That's our job. That's what we do. The Warrior should have gotten an army of foot soldiers, and it probably should have looked very similar to the Garrison, just faction neutral.
On a personal side note, the Warrior campaign put me off so much that it was actually one of the bigger reasons for my first quit, less than two weeks into my first forray into Legion when it first came out: it's good, but it's not Warrior. And the same, sadly goes for the Warrior itself. Fury has been dead to me since Draenor, and not only did they take away Gladiator Stance (one of the two only good things of Orclands), they also nerfed Prot Warrior damage down to shit. It takes forever to kill anything; in some fights on Argus i can literally use the bombardment cooldown several times when soloing rares. Sure, most of them eventually go down unless they have a gimmick, but switching to Arms in the same gear but shittier iLvl Artefact allows me to kill them too, just way, waaaay faster. Prot is SHIT, and i generally like to be Prot. Doesn't help that they removed Dual Spec as maintaining a Solo Prot and a Group Prot spec has become tedious and time consuming. That is another reason why the Warrios, despite good campaign quality, is more in the middle of the pack: Legion ruined Warriors for me.

Death Knight: Arguably the Death Knight has the second best campaign in my oppinion, and one of the best class fantasy representations. Why's it not higher on the list, then? Well, it's really many small problems than big ones: the DKs feel surprisingly disconnected from the Legion, which is funny considering their origins, i had trouble settling on a spec (i love Frost's gameplay, but i also love Unholy's fantasy - eventually i settled on Unholy and just stopped playing my DK other than for the Sunsong Ranch once i was done with the mount quests) and... can we talk about Evil Bolvar? Because i think we need to talk about Evil Bolvar. I mean, shit, a full frontal assault on another Order Hall? Duuuuudes. I thought we were playing the good guys here?
Don't get me wrong - this is REALLY good storytelling, i just don't necessarily like it for the Order Campaigns. It just doesn't fit in my book. And while the Death Knight is certainly the big animal in Archerus, he/she DOES take orders from the goddamn LICH KING. Like, not like the Warlock where it mostly feel like it, but LITERALLY WORKS FOR the Lich King. Who's apparently cooking up World Domination and / or other evil shenanigans. Again. I love where this is going, but i don't love it for the campaign.

Warlock: The Warlock is another troubled child in this list. The quests are mostly fine, it OOZES Warlock... i'm just not a fan of the Class Order Hall, or should i say, chunk if indistinct Class Order Rock that might as well be any legion-controlled asteroid base, except i can't fly here which pisses me off because it's basically brezel-shaped. Also the Imp Mother makes me stand in lava. And so far i wasn't able to find a single Class Order follower that i recognized. I'm sure some of them were minor NPCs at some point, but that was a bit of a let down. I'm happy to report that i quite like the Demonology Warlock, though i wish i had more time to gear her up as my Fel Guard takes way too much damage.
All in all... it's serviceable, i guess, but seeing how good many other campaigns are i find the Warlock's to be severly lacking in almost every regard, including leader-nes which... i'm actually not sure i'm supposed to have. I'm called First but apparently the fire-head-orc is making all the decisions, so... yeah. Doesn't help that i don't particularly enjoy the Warlock's Class Fantasy either.

Demon Hunter: Apparently the answer to "What have YOU sacrificed?!" is "Species Selection" and "I dunno, fun, i guess". I am HARD at work trying to remember much about the Demon Hunter other than being grimdark evilexceptnotevil DK-tryhards crammed into a tiny little room with a basement full of nerds. I... don't like the Demon Hunter. Period. The quests aren't anything special and i don't much enjoy the DH's gameplay at all, but when it comes down to it the main reason the Demon Hunter sits only above the Hunter is that i flatout don't like them. As a class, as a player model, it's Class fantasy, and their collective hard-ons and ladyboners for Illidan Nerdrage. Good parts include some semblance of leadership and a rather compact Class Order that makes it tolerable to log in once a day to queue up follower missions.

Hunter: I'm sitting here, head in hand, with some relaxing WoW-music from Youtube running in the background, observing my budgies and trying my goddamn damndest to remember ANYTHING about the Hunter questline other than the Mount Quest and an offhand comment about the Tauren building a tower or two for the Unseen Path's base of operations. And frankly i'm drawing a blank. It was so boring i literally forgot about it. Good news is: i do enjoy the Marksman Hunter, to the point where i'd quite like to play my hunter more, i just don't have the time to.

You may have noticed a suspicious lack of talking about Followers and their missions. The sad truth is: they're an inherently interesting concept, but the execution is so flawed that i consider them at best unremarkable, and at worst infuriating. Why infuriating? Because of shit like 24 hour Quest missions. That's why. The goddamn gating in Legion is HORRIBLE. Yes, they've lifted it in some areas but doing Campaigns on alt classes is still a terrible mix of quests (yay!) and... waiting. So much waiting. Nothing but waiting. This is what i mean when i say the Class Orders kept the worst parts of the Garrison and dumped all the good ones - all the choice in base building is gone (well, the ENTIRE base building is gone) but you still get to deal with mandatory follower missions. I LIKE follower missions, i just don't want to have to WAIT for them to continue my questline! ffs.


4.) The Classes

I actually had a seperate "Classes"-section on my shitty little list, but i guess we already got those i have Legion-related experience with in Section 3. So... what i AM willing to complain about here is that Legion changed some classes around way too much for my liking, like the aforementioned Warrior. Sometimes this DID work out in it's favor (like the Mage which in my book was a true triumph), but other times it just puts me off.


5.) World Quests and why i hate them

"But Rotal", you might ask, "didn't you just say that you're a questing whore?", to which i'd say "Yes, yes i am.".
Here's the problem - World Quests are inherently inferior to Daily Quests.
If you went to a Daily Quest Hub (let's say The Klaxxi's little... ringshaped town...thing) you just generally accepted all the quests and then proceeded to, well, do them. Most of the time they'd all be located in one general area, or two, or three, sometimes these areas would vary. Basically, not counting the goddamn Golden Lotus gating, 5.0 Dailies were perfect: great rewards, great quests, an absolute iso-ton of them, oodles of money without needing to grind mats for the AH, and in hindsight the best part was: they didn't fucking clock up your damn map.
Now, World Quests are basically Blizzard's attempt to cross Questless Isle's "No Quest"-system with Daily Quests, which... just plain doesn't work.
Problem 1: Map Clutter. It's unsightly, they can overlap, many of them don't even reward anything interesting but you can't just hide them.
Problem 2: They have no proper quest text. Most of the time that's not a problem, as they rarely go beyond "Eat this, Kill that, fuck with those", but whenever they expect more out of you that goes against established quest mechanics (or, sometimes, when the map flatout lies to you) i find myself thinking "uhm, and now?". An example of this would be the Suramar City quest where you have to save 5 endangered citizens - at no point does the quest tell you to actually bring them to savety, and the fact that the first four elves refused to spawn next to me didn't help. Speaking of...
Problem 3: Some are buggy as shit. Doesn't happen THAT often, but when they do, man... especially when the quest area doesn't line up with the mini map and the quest text, or what counts for it, starts playing over... and over... and over... and over... ever tried ignoring a Legion Invasion while in it's zone?
(Edit: I especially LOVE when you kill the same damn boss mob over and over without credit...)
Problem 4: They're spread out over the entire zone. Instead of getting your stuff done in one general area you're now flying across time and space just to hunt down the three and a half quests you're actually interested in doing.

To be blunt: i hate World Quests. Not because they're repetitive, or often just leveling quests repurposed for end game content, or boring - nonono, i hate them because they have a shit implementation, and the only properly positive aspect of them is that they allow for quick gearing - and even THAT only if you have flying already unlocked...


6.) No Flight

Gating, Warrior Class Hole, Removal of Gladi Stance and No Flight were the four BIG reasons why Legion didn't have a good start with me the first time around. They fixed SOME gating, and Flight is now available on the Broken Isles. So... we're about a third there, i guess.
As a general rule i don't actually mind the Pathfinder solution toooo much. My three main problems (well, three and a half; i think some of the requirements are way overblown but at least it's accountwide) are: it took forever to actually be completed, flying at max level was ALREADY a compromize so i'm not keen on compromizing even further (mostly because i'm the only one giving anything up) and, of course, it doesn't even work on Argus.
If the damn thing was at least grind- and completeable from Day 1... i wouldn't LIKE it, but at least i could do it quickly instead of waiting for sub numbers to drop so that some executive tells them to unleash our wings, because looking at Blizzard's hard-on for No Flight i tell you this is EXACTLY why the Pathfinder system exists.
At least the Broken Isles have (mostly) the decency of being fairly ground mount friendly. (Or, in Stormheim's case, hook-friendly, though i find the targeting system a bit wonky.) And the Flight Master's Whistle makes it a little more manageable, but by the time they feel the need to work around the problems of No Flight i have to wonder why they're even bothering with No Flight. There is, frankly, not a single upside to No Flight, just a bunch of downsides, and i will never ever see it as a good thing. It's an experiment that failed two expansions ago and really shouldn't be fucked with anymore.
No Flight needs to die, that's all there is to it.
(However, argueably that the disjointed nature of the Broken Isle leveling zones actually work in No Flight's favor, however, as the zones are so internally contained that the high mountains generally don't pose much of a problem.)


7.) LFR and Dungeons

Ever since my short little visit during Orclords of Orcland my former love for dungeons and LFR has severly diminished - mostly because i have no friends to play WoW with (or more to the point, the two that do no longer talk to me), so not only do i have to deal with eternal waiting times on DPS characters, i also don't really feel like tanking for randoms. And since Prot Warriors have been shat on all throughout Legion anyways i find myself... uninterested in Legion dungeons. And the ones i did... most were fine enough, but the gated (again...) Suramar Dungeons were not a joy to run through. And the less said about the Violet Hold, the better. All in all i can't exactly recommend dungeons in Legion.
LFR, on the other hand, seems to have found it's perfect difficulty with the Tomb of Sargeras. I quite enjoy the "Only one mechanic is important, but ignore it and you die"-thing, even if it means a whipe or two. Who cares; that's part of raiding. Sadly i can't say i enjoy the SETTINGS too much, and thanks to my casual disregard for them i have not done any research as to whether or not their LFR-versions have the same loot as the other free partially redundant difficulty levels - i flatout don't care anymore. And, having been pressured into Mytic+ the first time around by a friend who's since stopped playing, just about all of ToS's loot was lower iLvl than what i had anyway, which frankly is not a great system in my book.


8.) Patch Content - Broken Shore and Argus

Hey, the last point, let's go all out on this one!
To be blunt: 7.0's content was already dodgy (and gatey. Soooo gatey...) enough to make me quit before my game time had even ran out, but the Broken Shore just kind of don't make much sense to me. It's like the Questless Isle, just this time the grind gives you a nifty mount at the end. So... thanks? You may have noticed; i am not a fan of World Quests, and considering those are mostly all there is to the Broken Shore i was like "Cool, fine, kinda glad i didn't play this when it was current gated content".
The terrain doesn't help either - as we have established i don't like the fel-invested zones, and while there's a LITTLE bit of variety on the Broken Shore... it just doesn't do it for me.

And then there's Argus.
I am a fan of the Draenei. I have waited for proper Draenei content since The Burning Fucking Crusade (That kind of sounds like an STD, doesn't it...). Screw those Alternate Universe Past Draenei, i mean REAL, proper Prime Timeline Azeroth-based Draenei. And we get content for them by the assloads in Legion. So naturally i was PUMPED, PUMPED i tell you, for Argus.
In fact, i wanted to amicably quit WoW again after my first month of returning, but then i noticed that FUCKING ARGUS was comming out soon, so i continued, prepared, leveled alts and...

It's the goddamn Questless Isle.
Well, Almost Questless Isles.
YES; i got a couple of sick cinematics out of it. YES, it's a great way to make money and get better gear. But... remember the way ARGUS, fucking ARGUS is introduced in terms of gameplay? "Kill 12 demons, Destroy 3 Cannons". And in the, like, a dozen or so story quests i got before story quests simply stopped appearing, it really didn't get any better. THIS is how we establish a foothold on FUCKING ARGUS? Where's the bombing runs on gryphons? Where's the fleet of skyships dropping bunker breakers left and right? Where are the Class Orders? Where's Khadgar and why does he think this is his first alien planet? Why does Turalyon look a little pudgy? WHY IS EVERYTHING DARK BROWNISH ALMOST BLACK, WITH A LITTLE GREEN/YELLOW-Y LAVA HERE AND THERE? Everything here looks the same! And a day into 7.3 all i had to work with were fucking WORLD QUESTS. Again.
I mean, i get it, Blizzard is gating shit, it's kind of their thing, it's kind of what Legion does, but for fuck sake, if your content can't fill a decent-sized weekend DO NOT GATE IT for literal weeks.
The managed to make ARGUS, fucking ARGUS, bland and boring. HOW do you even DO that? Is that the price of the 77 Day Cycle? At least 7.2 had a rather good excuse of the Class Mount questlines. What's 7.3's excuse?

Also: honorary mention of wanting to slap whoever decided on the Army of Light's golem-mount-thing's price. I've been farming gold ever since i started playing and i STILL couldn't afford it, even if i knew how to properly farm rep for a faction that doesn't give me any quests anymore...


9.) Ending Words

In short: Legion has a couple of great ideas but their execution ranges from "Fantastic!" to "What The Shit, Blizzard". I still WANT to play at least through every Class Order campaign, and see where things go. Admittedly, by the time i reached Mage and Warlock i kinda lost interest in the Artefacts' lore, since i just plain don't like spellcasters, but i found it noteworthy how many artefact weapons are either sentient or specifically on loan (like the Brewmaster Staff). I still WANT to level my last four classes... Legion just makes it relatively hard for me to enjoy it. As of this moment it is juuuust fun enough for me to stay subbed, but i don't think i have another month in me. Not for money, at least; i'm currently attempting to pay for my sub via Gold, but there's some stuff i wanna buy (just recently i treated myself to the 80 k Panther, and i have my eyes set on the Transmog Yak), a few last Heirlooms to upgrade... goldmaking is going well, but i flatout don't have the time to farm enough to pay for my sub AND have fun in the game. So... we'll see.
I may update the thread once i got my last few classes on max.

Last edited by Commander Rotal; 09-02-2017 at 11:55 AM..
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Old 09-03-2017, 07:00 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Wow, that was one heck of a text wall.

Yeah, the warrior order hall is fairly consistently unpopular as a warrior order hall.

With the appearances, it's not just your color blindness that's doing this. The color this expansion are much less saturated than they normally are in WoW, and I think there might actually be a filter that's doing this (from some places, thunder totem looks a lot more colorful). I did a few comparisons here
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Old 09-03-2017, 07:38 AM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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A funny thing about the warrior order hall, it's development was full of false starts and odd directions before settling on Vyrkul heaven. At BlizzCon 2015 they mentioned that Fray Island was their initial plan for its location. However, they felt it "wasn't nearly epic enough" and then decided on the Halls of Valor.

However, it wasn't vrykul themed back then. The plan then was to have Odyn recruit you, various other warrior NPCs from the Kor'kron and Seventh Legion, and the spirits of famous warriors like Lothar and Orgrim Doomhammer. Blizzard decided it was too weird for Alliance and Horde warriors to work together and that the "spirits of past lore characters coming back" might be poorly received after WoD, so they scrapped all of that and filled it with vrykul.

On world quests, I think we might have to agree to disagree. The fact that they're spread out over the zone is one of my favorite aspects, as it got really boring in WoD or MoP that dailies only took to you to certain max level subzones and the rest of the continent was basically ignored after leveling.

Flight is an interesting subject. On one hand, I generally agree with Blizzard that flight hurt the game overall. I find that the world feels so much smaller and less involved when you just fly over it; on the other hand its convenience and fun is hard to ignore. I think the best solution would just be to have pathfinder, but implement entirely at launch. That way you get flying once you've done all the ground content enough for it to lose its luster.

I'm really curious though as to how you found Suramar a disaster. It's my favorite zone in WoW period.
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Old 09-03-2017, 07:41 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Please don't try to change Rotal's opinions about anything. It won't end well.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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Old 09-03-2017, 07:53 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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With the appearances, it's not just your color blindness that's doing this. The color this expansion are much less saturated than they normally are in WoW, and I think there might actually be a filter that's doing this (from some places, thunder totem looks a lot more colorful). I did a few comparisons here
... yeah, that would have looked way better...

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However, it wasn't vrykul themed back then. The plan then was to have Odyn recruit you, various other warrior NPCs from the Kor'kron and Seventh Legion, and the spirits of famous warriors like Lothar and Orgrim Doomhammer.
That sounds great :/ Blizzard is really making me hate the word "epic" by now.

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On world quests, I think we might have to agree to disagree. The fact that they're spread out over the zone is one of my favorite aspects, as it got really boring in WoD or MoP that dailies only took to you to certain max level subzones and the rest of the continent was basically ignored after leveling.
I mean, leveling content is for leveling, and endgame content is for the endgame. I don't really see a problem with that; but i also don't reeeally agree that Daily Hubs were endgame locations only. The Tillers, for example, sat right in the middle of a major leveling zone.

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I'm really curious though as to how you found Suramar a disaster. It's my favorite zone in WoW period.
A couple of reasons, to be honest. First things first there is, obviously, my anti-elf bias. I don't like elves. There's nothing more boring than elves in fantasy, aside from humans, i guess, but at least i like WoW's female human player model. I can't stand elves. And Legion already has two elfish leveling zones. Having the endgame zone be almost entirely elf TOO is just way too much for my liking.
Then there's the city. Without flight it's an absolute nightmare, especially with the shitty gear people had back then. I will fully admit that 90 percent of the time my hate for No Flight comes from a combination of simply wanting to fly and being pissed at Blizzard for removing a core feature for no benefit to anyone but their wallets, but Suramar is outright unplayable without flight.
Thirdly there's the initial rep gating. I don't think more needs to be said about that one...
And lastly it's the zone i've encountered the most bugged and / or poorly explained World Quests in.

I mean, i guess the story is serviceable if you like elves, but i don't, which leaves me personally with only one single solitary good aspect of Suramar: the Withered Army Training, and even that disappointed me massively when i realized the second week in that the special chests are one-offs and don't respawn.
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Old 09-03-2017, 08:10 AM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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With the appearances, it's not just your color blindness that's doing this. The color this expansion are much less saturated than they normally are in WoW, and I think there might actually be a filter that's doing this (from some places, thunder totem looks a lot more colorful). I did a few comparisons here
There is definitely a filter being used in the swamp areas of Highmountain, to simulate it being foggy. It's really cool, but I wonder if maybe it's effecting the rest of the Highmountain unintentionally.
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Old 09-03-2017, 08:55 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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And if you're doing what Legion REALLY wants you to do, level ALL the alts, it adds up. I'm SICK and FUCKING TIRED of leveling alts.
Leveling alts is a very quick and seamless process through invasions and order hall XP missions. Have you tried that?

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And Legion DOES have one specific problem in this regard: i am ALSO sick and tired of intro quests. I'm sick of Khadgar's raven. I'm sick of the Suramar intro. I'm sick of the 7.2 scenario - thankfully they let you skip it now, which i find to be one of 7.3's more pressing successes.
It's completely unnecessary to do these on more than one character. Why did you even do that?

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And, having been pressured into Mytic+ the first time around by a friend who's since stopped playing, just about all of ToS's loot was lower iLvl than what i had anyway, which frankly is not a great system in my book.
If you complete a t0+ Mythic dungeon, you'll receive a guaranteed 935 item in your order hall cache in the next weekly reset. 935 is higher than Mythic Tomb of Sargeras.
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Old 09-03-2017, 10:17 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Leveling alts is a very quick and seamless process through invasions and order hall XP missions. Have you tried that?
I'm doing exactly that, it just doesn't really help with characters i have to level from 1 to 100 first.

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It's completely unnecessary to do these on more than one character. Why did you even do that?
I didn't. After the third alt i got so sick of it i switched to the Invasion Point method. Which probably cost me XP in the long run, and took forever. As for Broken Shore and stuff: i want the mounts.

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If you complete a t0+ Mythic dungeon, you'll receive a guaranteed 935 item in your order hall cache in the next weekly reset. 935 is higher than Mythic Tomb of Sargeras.
I haven't paid too much attention to item levels the first time around, i only realized during ToS LFR that almost all the loot was sub-par compared to what i already wore. I'm not terribly concerned with iLvls other than how much easier they make soloing Mythic Siege of Orgrimmar but that system just seems badly thought out.

Last edited by Commander Rotal; 09-03-2017 at 10:21 AM..
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Old 09-04-2017, 03:21 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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However, it wasn't vrykul themed back then. The plan then was to have Odyn recruit you, various other warrior NPCs from the Kor'kron and Seventh Legion, and the spirits of famous warriors like Lothar and Orgrim Doomhammer. Blizzard decided it was too weird for Alliance and Horde warriors to work together and that the "spirits of past lore characters coming back" might be poorly received after WoD, so they scrapped all of that and filled it with vrykul.
Strange that they'd find that a problem, considering it's literally what every single other Class Hall is doing in Legion. But then it's hardly a surprise that even with the Alliance and Horde sidelined after the Broken Shore the faction system still found a way to screw us.

Honestly one of my issues with the Warrior Champions was that even after going with the vrykul, they really kinda shortchanged which vrykul we got. Stormheim's full of tales about dead important vrykul with storied pasts who would have made better Champions. Why were we recruiting living warriors whose entire story is "such-and-such appeared and immediately became a Champion" along with a boss vrykul from Northrend whose spirit should really be languishing somewhere in the Scourge's host of captive souls rather than Helheim, when we should have seen the likes of Magnar Icebreaker and Ashildir reborn in the Halls of Valor to lead our armies? That way it would have tied into the artifact weapons and the vrykul stories going on in Legion. Hell, we even save Magnar's soul while claiming the Scale of the Earthwarder, but he just wanders off to drink in a corner of Skyhold instead of becoming Valarjar. Why couldn't he become one of our champions?

While I'm used to having Finna, Ragnvald and Svergan around at this point, frankly even as vrykul go they're barely even characters. Finna and Ragnvald are literally only around because they happened to die right before the Warrior player did, and somehow that made them ideal candidates to help command Odyn's armies. For a mythical army of the most legendary vrykul warriors in history, the Valarjar seem to really have very few actual legendary vrykul among them.
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Old 09-04-2017, 04:01 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Strange that they'd find that a problem, considering it's literally what every single other Class Hall is doing in Legion. But then it's hardly a surprise that even with the Alliance and Horde sidelined after the Broken Shore the faction system still found a way to screw us.

Honestly one of my issues with the Warrior Champions was that even after going with the vrykul, they really kinda shortchanged which vrykul we got. Stormheim's full of tales about dead important vrykul with storied pasts who would have made better Champions. Why were we recruiting living warriors whose entire story is "such-and-such appeared and immediately became a Champion" along with a boss vrykul from Northrend whose spirit should really be languishing somewhere in the Scourge's host of captive souls rather than Helheim, when we should have seen the likes of Magnar Icebreaker and Ashildir reborn in the Halls of Valor to lead our armies? That way it would have tied into the artifact weapons and the vrykul stories going on in Legion. Hell, we even save Magnar's soul while claiming the Scale of the Earthwarder, but he just wanders off to drink in a corner of Skyhold instead of becoming Valarjar. Why couldn't he become one of our champions?

While I'm used to having Finna, Ragnvald and Svergan around at this point, frankly even as vrykul go they're barely even characters. Finna and Ragnvald are literally only around because they happened to die right before the Warrior player did, and somehow that made them ideal candidates to help command Odyn's armies. For a mythical army of the most legendary vrykul warriors in history, the Valarjar seem to really have very few actual legendary vrykul among them.
I will also be foreverly miffed that the damn DKs snatched Nazgrim away from us. Did anyone get Taylor or is he damned to Garrison duty forever?
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Old 09-04-2017, 09:05 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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I will also be foreverly miffed that the damn DKs snatched Nazgrim away from us. Did anyone get Taylor or is he damned to Garrison duty forever?
Taylor? Where did he go?
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Old 09-30-2017, 04:45 PM
Afaslizo Afaslizo is offline

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Legion is the first iteration since Classic that made me take only one character and actually nothing else. In Van I played exclusively my Troll Priest and now I am playing the character that stopped me quitting in BC and became my main, my blood elf tank pala. And actually I do not feel like I want to play anything else.

Sure, there a catch-up mechanics but world quests are a time sink as well as that stupid AP grind. Funny enough I got all classes at 100 sitting in Dala with their first Weapon and good to go and even leveled a bit with my mage but now have given up on it. I will always love my pally no matter what but the "class fantasy" craze has broken my will to even consider it.

Also not interested in ever getting Ashbringer or Silver Hand, they feel like lore rape to me. Maxwell should have gotten the Ashbringer or even Arathor instead of it being handed over to the players in the millions. That is my beef with the majority of those Artifact weapons as well.

Questing is a bit boring for more than one char because I have an exceptional memory for quests and it takes a lot of effort to force myself to redo quests. At least it is not Northrend which I hated for the most part. Especially that stupid American trapper fantasy named Grizzly Hills.


What I hate the most about the storyline is the complete devaluation of the blood elf "redemption" arc of BC. Because if the Naaru are not pure and noble but self righteous knight templars the rape of M'uru become as lot less evil than it was presented back then. I do not play blood elf because of some stupid attraction to comic characters, I play them for the lore.
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Old 10-24-2017, 09:50 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Made my own sorta review/sorta feedback post on the official forums, obviously from more of a raiding perspective. I think we arrive at more or less comparable conclusions though.
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17617055154
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Old 10-24-2017, 10:59 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Made my own sorta review/sorta feedback post on the official forums, obviously from more of a raiding perspective. I think we arrive at more or less comparable conclusions though.
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17617055154
I think we can boil it down to "Some really good ideas executed quite badly" and call it a day :/

I've been leveling my last four characters since the orignal post; got 2 through "Classic", 1 past Outland and my Shaman is dragging her heels trying to reach 110 (currently 104, i believe), but the burnout is real. Haven't played in two days and i don't think i will in the near future; i'm sick of the Broken Isle(s) and frankly the Shaman Class Rock isn't doing my motivation any favors. Should have gone with the Druid first.
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Old 10-24-2017, 11:08 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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I think we can boil it down to "Some really good ideas executed quite badly" and call it a day :/

I've been leveling my last four characters since the orignal post; got 2 through "Classic", 1 past Outland and my Shaman is dragging her heels trying to reach 110 (currently 104, i believe), but the burnout is real. Haven't played in two days and i don't think i will in the near future; i'm sick of the Broken Isle(s) and frankly the Shaman Class Rock isn't doing my motivation any favors. Should have gone with the Druid first.
I've stopped logging on except for raids atm, else I would burn myself out completely before finishing the expansion. Still have 4 Artifact traits to go before getting the "mandatory" (75) level done for Antorus and then likely still have to get to 85 or so during Antorus or risk falling behind again.

I went from loving Argus to being utterly burned out in just a few months.
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Old 10-24-2017, 11:23 AM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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I've stopped logging on except for raids atm, else I would burn myself out completely before finishing the expansion. Still have 4 Artifact traits to go before getting the "mandatory" (75) level done for Antorus and then likely still have to get to 85 or so during Antorus or risk falling behind again.

I went from loving Argus to being utterly burned out in just a few months.
It's always ok to take a break when you get bored. I played Stormblood for about a month when it came out in June then did the Argus stuff for a month or so and did Heroic ToS (I'm done with mythic raiding) then played other games till PoF. Now Divinity 2 has been taking my time though I'm now looking to raid in WoW again now that Antorus is in a monthish. Taking breaks keeps WoW fresh.
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Old 10-24-2017, 11:54 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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It's always ok to take a break when you get bored. I played Stormblood for about a month when it came out in June then did the Argus stuff for a month or so and did Heroic ToS (I'm done with mythic raiding) then played other games till PoF. Now Divinity 2 has been taking my time though I'm now looking to raid in WoW again now that Antorus is in a monthish. Taking breaks keeps WoW fresh.
Yeah that's what i normally do. Point is though that this iteration of the game doesn't really let you completely tune out between Tiers, at least if you want to properly raid Mythic and clear Tiers before the next. I've never felt this burned out by a version of the game that I legitimately enjoy, tbh.

Playing PoE and Civ6 atm.
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Old 10-24-2017, 12:17 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Yeah that's what i normally do. Point is though that this iteration of the game doesn't really let you completely tune out between Tiers, at least if you want to properly raid Mythic and clear Tiers before the next. I've never felt this burned out by a version of the game that I legitimately enjoy, tbh.

Playing PoE and Civ6 atm.
That's what mythic does. I burnt out after 8/10 M NH and from what I hear about Mythic ToS I'm damn glad I stopped when I did. I'm much happier sticking with heroic with a more laid back guild.

Last edited by Leviathon; 10-24-2017 at 12:19 PM..
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Old 11-06-2017, 07:28 AM
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I A M M Y S C A R S was good, roflstomping the Legion was so bad that I'm sure Blizz doesn't care anymore about the franchise beyond making money. All the old names are practically burnt out or gone.
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Old 11-06-2017, 07:55 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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I A M M Y S C A R S was good, roflstomping the Legion was so bad that I'm sure Blizz doesn't care anymore about the franchise beyond making money. All the old names are practically burnt out or gone.
The Legion got old, dude. People got sick of it.
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Old 11-06-2017, 11:00 AM
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As someone who was sick of the Legion but not of demons, I consider this development a great chance. Whether Blizzard shall use it remains to be seen.
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