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  #10576  
Old 09-22-2017, 12:21 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
Well, Hammer doesn't even want to come back. In fact he said a few choice words on the matter but I'd rather not quote him.

The thing is, we're losing people. And you know why? Drama. Drama is the quickest way to kill a community. When people are more focused on past crappy events than whatever brought them together in the first place it will make everyone feel like crap, and who the fuck wants that. So they're gone, and this forum is liable to go with them if you're catching my drift.

We are a small forum, we don't need a lot of rules and ridiculous heavy handed verdicts and policing. We can smooth most things out by talking and light moderation. This is where you are making a mistake Cantus, your approach is clearly wrong even if we disregard that you are not the sweetest poster personally. You should just take a step back, we all should take a step back and cut the drama and try to get this forum back on track. If we can even be bothered to save this forum that is.
It's already gone past the symptoms of a community dying. Compared with last year, it is barely active. The only things you can do is either abandon it or the classic deal with it. To address some of your points, certain accusations don't bother me as much as the risk of certain people digging my outside forum history to validate those accusations. But it's not like I can stop it so I'm expecting whatever.

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  #10577  
Old 09-22-2017, 12:36 PM
Krainz Krainz is online now

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
It's already gone past the symptoms of a community dying. Compared with last year, it is barely active. The only things you can do is either abandon it or the classic deal with it. To address some of your points, certain accusations don't bother me as much as the risk of certain people digging my outside forum history to validate those accusations. But it's not like I can stop it so I'm expecting whatever.

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Seeing SoL as only the forums is a retrograde perspective. The community is very much active if you count both forums and Discord.
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  #10578  
Old 09-22-2017, 12:45 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
I'm not absolving myself of guilt or the need for absolution on any given topic. In this case, I'm letting people know that some books that were closed will stay closed. More to the point, not to try to reopen them during the work week when Staff have less time to keep track of things, which inevitably leads to more drama.

SPK, No topics are banned from discussion, only the way people go about them. The more civil, or at least reasonable, the better.
It's just... this is kind of language:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
The proper response when someone issues an order that doesn't imminently harm you or another is not to reiterate your opinion. It's to say "I understand," "I don't understand, please explain why," or not respond at all. I recommend you take that to heart both here and in the real world.
That needs to stop, immediately. Otherwise your problems here are never going to go away.

You need to understand that you are not Warlock. These are not your personal forums.
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  #10579  
Old 09-22-2017, 03:33 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
It's just... this is kind of language:

That needs to stop, immediately. Otherwise your problems here are never going to go away.

You need to understand that you are not Warlock. These are not your personal forums.
These aren't my personal forums, no. Go back a page and read what my job is though. If it's not me saying this, it's someone else on Staff. No topic is permanently banned from discussion, but some topics are temporarily restricted to prevent flame wars. As the R&R thread is the primary avenue for users to interact with Staff in public, locking it (the exact same thing as a temp restriction) can't be done with as much ease as other threads without interrupting legitimate and pertinent discussions. Thus, the moratorium...

...As I said, the moratorium ends as of tomorrow (for the sake of specificity let's give an arbitrary 05:00 EST to that). That won't change the Staff's opinion on certain rulings (as in the permabans), but debate around those topics won't be stopped because we'll have the opportunity to actually keep up with people instead of coming in 12 hours after a firestorm erupted.
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  #10580  
Old 09-22-2017, 03:42 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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fucking ignore them Cantus jesus. Do i have to teach all my bosses how to be bosses?
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  #10581  
Old 09-22-2017, 03:47 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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Originally Posted by GenyaArikado View Post
fucking ignore them Cantus jesus. Do i have to teach all my bosses how to be bosses?
There are people here who are trolling or looking to fulfill vendettas. Neither Baron nor C9 happen to fall into those categories, thus they deserve an appropriate response.

Now, that said, I do have to ignore this thread for the next three hours to finish a coding project. So, while that's happening, I encourage everyone to listen to the latest WoW audioplay if they need a drama fix.
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  #10582  
Old 09-22-2017, 10:04 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
That needs to stop, immediately. Otherwise your problems here are never going to go away.

You need to understand that you are not Warlock. These are not your personal forums.
He is the problem and he doesn't care if it goes away or not. He has caused more damage to the forum community and retention than anyone else. Just look at the dumb excuses he makes up to justify it. He can't believe there could be anything wrong with him. Instead he thinks people are out to get him for no reason. The way he moderates and the way he interacts with the community has nothing to do with promoting civility. It is because he has a chip on his shoulder. If something he doesn't like happens politically or what ever we shouldn't have to brace for more strict moderation on this forum because it is his personal catharsis.

Many forums like this should have a feature where Admins lose their privileges after long enough periods of inactivity. It would prevent people from coming back from long absences and causing a ruckus. Cantus is not cut out for this and is driving the forum into the ground. Any sort of recruitment will be impossible when we always have to deal with an Admin that acts this way and we will continue to bleed out members from our already dwindling community. He would not tolerate his own behavior if it was directed at him or the posters that he thinks are on his team. No other admin or moderator is like this. They are respectful and professional. This strategy he has justified over the past few months has failed over and over again and I do not believe he cared for it to succeed. Some people simply can't handle any kind of power.
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  #10583  
Old 09-22-2017, 11:47 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
He is the problem and he doesn't care if it goes away or not. He has caused more damage to the forum community and retention than anyone else. Just look at the dumb excuses he makes up to justify it. He can't believe there could be anything wrong with him. Instead he thinks people are out to get him for no reason. The way he moderates and the way he interacts with the community has nothing to do with promoting civility. It is because he has a chip on his shoulder. If something he doesn't like happens politically or what ever we shouldn't have to brace for more strict moderation on this forum because it is his personal catharsis.

Many forums like this should have a feature where Admins lose their privileges after long enough periods of inactivity. It would prevent people from coming back from long absences and causing a ruckus. Cantus is not cut out for this and is driving the forum into the ground. Any sort of recruitment will be impossible when we always have to deal with an Admin that acts this way and we will continue to bleed out members from our already dwindling community. He would not tolerate his own behavior if it was directed at him or the posters that he thinks are on his team. No other admin or moderator is like this. They are respectful and professional. This strategy he has justified over the past few months has failed over and over again and I do not believe he cared for it to succeed. Some people simply can't handle any kind of power.
And with that you've managed to ignore two separate warnings to not cheerlead mobs against Staff. Please consider the ramifications of ignoring Staff orders during your 24 hour suspension.
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  #10584  
Old 09-23-2017, 06:50 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Congratulations on creating an even bigger mess.
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  #10585  
Old 09-23-2017, 08:45 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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The argument that Cantus is biased falls apart when the other mods and admins have been onboard with the decisions if not the tone he conveys them with.
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  #10586  
Old 09-23-2017, 09:04 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Well Bolvar has made it clear that he won't ban anyone short of actual threats, I'm not sure how active Warlock is, and the rest tend to lean on Cantus' political view points.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #10587  
Old 09-23-2017, 09:36 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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I think Cantus should probably take a step back at this point. PJS should not have been banned.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #10588  
Old 09-23-2017, 09:37 AM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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NO!!! Don't ban her.
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  #10589  
Old 09-23-2017, 09:43 AM
Krainz Krainz is online now

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I think Cantus should probably take a step back at this point. PJS should not have been banned.
Warnings don't make sense if they aren't followed through.
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  #10590  
Old 09-23-2017, 09:46 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Warnings don't make sense if they aren't followed through.
Fine, but at this point, as his friend, I feel like I have to let him know that he really is making things worse.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #10591  
Old 09-23-2017, 11:25 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
The argument that Cantus is biased falls apart when the other mods and admins have been onboard with the decisions if not the tone he conveys them with.
Wasn't it Cantus that told Frost to change his signature despite others having just as offensive signatures that still exist or existed for longer?
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  #10592  
Old 09-23-2017, 11:32 AM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
The argument that Cantus is biased falls apart when the other mods and admins have been onboard with the decisions if not the tone he conveys them with.
I think the tone is the crux of it. You don't see Nazja or Kellick giving these long, philosophical explanations of their actions. Accusations of political bias aside, Cantus is certainly the most obnoxious mod. Every time I read something about "Staff orders" or "my job here" I just roll my eyes, and think about how at least I don't have to see this shit on the Discord.

Again the root of these issues, in my opinion, is the perennial disaster of the Halls. I check in every now and then and literally no one is discussing anything. There are maybe 2 or 3 people there that actually even substantively respond to people. The rest just post random links and memes and argue against no one in particular with hyperbolic rhetoric and regurgitated talking points. A lot of posters in Halls threads might as well be bots.
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  #10593  
Old 09-23-2017, 11:50 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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She was warned. She was given an explanation. Nevertheless, she persisted.

It's just a temp ban anyway, right?
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  #10594  
Old 09-23-2017, 12:05 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
Wasn't it Cantus that told Frost to change his signature despite others having just as offensive signatures that still exist or existed for longer?
  • Frost was not told to change his signature. He was told that he may have to change it at some point. (Reasons bellow.)
  • Frost and Kakwakas had similar signatures when this happened. As far as I recall, both featured violence in the form of one person striking another.
  • Cantus only contacted Frost, which may seem biased, but had the following valid reasons:
    • Cantus had been absent for relatively long period of time and only saw/noticed one of the signatures in question upon his return.
    • Cantus's warning/notice wasn't in response to the violence depicted in the signature but to the ones perpetrating it. Given that, to his knowledge, the person in question had links to antisemitic groups, Cantus feared that the image might get used as propaganda for these. At this point, the image (and by extension the signature) would have no place on SoL. Hence, we would have asked Frost to get rid of it.

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  #10595  
Old 09-23-2017, 12:10 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
  • Frost was not told to change his signature. He was told that he may have to change it at some point. (Reasons bellow.)
  • Frost and Kakwakas had similar signatures when this happened. As far as I recall, both featured violence in the form of one person striking another.
  • Cantus only contacted Frost, which may seem biased, but had the following valid reasons:
    • Cantus had been absent for relatively long period of time and only saw/noticed one of the signatures in question upon his return.
    • Cantus's warning/notice wasn't in response to the violence depicted in the signature but to the ones perpetrating it. Given that, to his knowledge, the person in question had links to antisemitic groups, Cantus feared that the image might get used as propaganda for these. At this point, the image (and by extension the signature) would have no place on SoL. Hence, we would have asked Frost to get rid of it.

It just begs the question if one form of political violence is worse than the other. And what the process and proper response should be on the forum to any form of political violence.
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  #10596  
Old 09-23-2017, 01:04 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Pls unban PJ.
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  #10597  
Old 09-23-2017, 01:13 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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cantus, stop replying to these people for fuck sake

people, cantus isnt perfect and he will obviously have some subconsious bias, but he does a good job and honestly, you're shit and all of us would suck for moderation, especially PJS, tito and mertico.

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  #10598  
Old 09-23-2017, 01:28 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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I've made it quite public I despise Nazis and the KKK. I hold that same opinion of ISIS, Boko Haram, and any other terrorist group. The common denominator here isn't politics or religion, it's their belief in personal supremacy. I hate supremacists and extremists. I hate violent supremacists most of all. Make of that what you will.

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I think the tone is the crux of it. You don't see Nazja or Kellick giving these long, philosophical explanations of their actions. Accusations of political bias aside, Cantus is certainly the most obnoxious mod. Every time I read something about "Staff orders" or "my job here" I just roll my eyes, and think about how at least I don't have to see this shit on the Discord.

Again the root of these issues, in my opinion, are the perennial disaster of the Halls. I check in every now and then and literally no one is discussing anything. There are maybe 2 or 3 people there that actually even respond to people. The rest just post random links and memes and argue against no one in particular with hyperbolic rhetoric and regurgitated talking points. A lot of posters in Halls threads might as well be bots.
Nazja and Kellick aren't supposed to give long philosophical explanations, because they're not the ones defining the rules. They're part of that process, but they aren't the final authority on why any given rule exists. There's a reason for that separation, they shouldn't get flack for things that aren't in their control. And you can roll your eyes at my treating a volunteer position as a job all you want, but would you rather Staff treated this place as a playground? Let others assume that we treat it as one?

As to the Halls, as I said previously, we have plans to convert it over to something else. The short-short version of those plans is that it would become an area where only users in good standing can talk freely about controversial topics. Those who can't manage to keep from flaming each other would, de facto, be banned from talking about those topics. I don't like that this was the only technically feasible method we could think of, but that's where our current goal is now. If other users have feasible suggestions (not just ones that sound good, but that can actually be implemented with the tech we have) we're all ears.

**** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** ****

On a tangential topic, in regards to allegations I made against Smoke about a month ago, I promised I'd make a public accounting of my opinions. This weekend was supposed to be for that controversy, and I'm not going to hide behind the discussion of PJ's suspension to avoid it.

I PM'd the following to C9 and Baron in early September.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantus
I managed to get a little time this evening to do a search through relevant user histories. Please see the following curated comments by SmokeBlader in regards to my allegations:

On Turks: http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...ostcount=27797

There are actually several of these (SB seems to have a distinct hatred for Turks and others migrant groups from the Mid-East).

On Non-Whites in the UK: http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...ostcount=27806

On Non-White immigration to the EU: http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...ostcount=27817

On Non-White immigration in the US: http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...ostcount=54342

A generally tasteless joke: http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...ostcount=15686

On White-Straight individuals vs Trans: http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...postcount=9473

On police brutality of minorities: http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...ostcount=11611

Trying to imply I'm racist: http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...ostcount=52301

Trying to imply promoting multi-culturalism is anti-white: http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...postcount=8593

Random, oddly racist quote in the midst of a conversation on the topic of "White Genocide": http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...postcount=8536

Tangent - Smoke's opinion on violence against those he disagrees with:
http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...ostcount=27300
http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...ostcount=52406

That said, I will mea culpa here, the "14 words" instance was in regards to a statement from Hammerbrew, not from Smoke, so that was my mistake and a failure in my memory. In fact, Smoke has made statements that are anti-Nazi on several occasions. However and despite that case, it still doesn't override his long history of making statements that evolved into being extremely pro-white/anti-immigrant/anti-minority, up to the point it became near (but not actively) supremacist rhetoric (i.e. stating that other races/cultures are detriments to nations/groups just by virtue of their presence in those locations).
To clarify, I don't believe Smoke is a flag waving white supremacist marching around in jack boots. I do believe he has accidentally surrounded himself with people that are on that spectrum and that those opinion leaders are causing him to believe and say things that aren't realistic or healthy. Hammerbrew was one such individual, and frankly I'm surprised that people are still defending him given his very unsubtly supremacist opinions. In previous years I tried to dissuade Smoke of the merits of that group, and I failed to do so. At some point this year I gave up trying.
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  #10599  
Old 09-23-2017, 01:45 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Quote:
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As to the Halls, as I said previously, we have plans to convert it over to something else. The short-short version of those plans is that it would become an area where only users in good standing can talk freely about controversial topics. Those who can't manage to keep from flaming each other would, de facto, be banned from talking about those topics. I don't like that this was the only technically feasible method we could think of, but that's where our current goal is now. If other users have feasible suggestions (not just ones that sound good, but that can actually be implemented with the tech we have) we're all ears.
There really haven't been many personal attacks lately. It's just heated discussion.
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  #10600  
Old 09-23-2017, 01:51 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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You're digging yourself deeper, Cantus. You need to step back.
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