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Old 12-28-2013, 02:11 AM
Rufin Rufin is offline

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Default Idea for the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow

(Shamelessly copy/paste'ing my threads onto here.)
---
A recent topic that's come up on the Story Forums with a frequency not seen since Cataclysm is what to do with the Forsaken. Most distaste for the Forsaken comes from these factors:

Alliance
Control of Lordaeron (specifically Capital City).
Militant actions across the northern Eastern Kingdoms.
No repercussions/retaliation.
Horde
Lack of characters.
It's turned into a cult centered solely around Sylvanas.
Sylvanas does not care about the Forsaken at all.

All those reasons share a common stem: Sylvanas. Sylvanas is the root of all Forsaken problems because as of right now she IS the Forsaken. The everyday undead in the Forsaken has no say in anything, no representation in the lore, and no characterization beyond zealotry for Sylvanas that only half the population of the Forsaken share anyway. Sylvanas is nothing but stagnation for the Forsaken story in that she IS the Forsaken story. (Don't believe me? Try to name 5 Forsaken NPCs, not just free-willed undead like Lilian Voss, but FORSAKEN, and describe their roles with the Forsaken and what they have done recently.)

With the revelation that Sylvanas is only using the Forsaken as a personal bulwark to save herself from true death it is quite clear that she is not fit to rule. Right now the Forsaken's problems are greater than every before. They are untrusted by their home faction of the Horde, they needed to blackmail the Blood Elves just for help, neutral factions such as the Knights of the Ebon Blade and the Argent Crusade are watching them, and the Frostwolves, one of the most esteemed Orc clans, have stated that they will never fight alongside them. Why? Because of Sylvanas's goals and actions.

So where can the Forsaken go from here? I propose that the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow be resurrected as a new force for the Forsaken. The Forsaken are abandoned by the Light and cannot wield it without pain, let them then turn to the Shadow for a source of faith.

My idea goes like this:
The Forsaken start grassroots movement where they begin to turn towards the Cult. The priests of the Forgotten Shadow gain mass appeal among the everyday Forsaken, from the Death Stalkers to the everyday foot soldier, and an odd reaction takes place. Foot soldiers raised by the Valkyr almost always run off or are killed when they finish their state of madness, the Cult offers them a place to go and be safe.
In a rage Sylvanas decides to crack down on the Cult to send a message. She wants the Forsaklen to be only focused on her for her own protection. She can't have something impeding that, regardless of how large or small it may be. She sends out her Valkyr and her elite Death Guard to kill all the priests of the order and end it. However, the newly freed Forsaken begin to fight back. These Forsaken do not fight for Sylvanas, but for themselves and for their comrades in undeath. They defeat Slyvanas's loyalists and overthrow her, either slaying or detaining her. The Cult of the Forgotten Shadow becomes the new rulers of the Forsaken, led by a council of High Priests, and the Forsaken are now unified by their shared state of undeath and their faith in the Shadow, rather than loyalty to a specific leader.

It should be noted that the other races would not be getting involved. I would hope that the canon for this taking place would be a few months or years of Cult build up followed by only a day or two of civil battle. Lines are drawn and a battle takes place the very next day. It'd be so fast and chaotic that it basically forces the various new NPCs to act.

So what is the end result? The warmongering and invasions would stop as those were ordered by Sylvanas and the Forsaken have no need to expand, like the Ebon Blade. A council ensures that there will be no dictatorship again, and the faith in the Shadow ensures that the Forsaken are unified and patriotic still.
Another result is that both sides of the conflict would be built upon. Loyalists for Sylvanas would be delving into their motives for helping her and the original Forsaken would have lots of conflict choosing between their battlebrothers and the one they are ruled by. But what happens when Sylvanas is slain in combat or severely maimed or detained in just a day or two of the fighting? Then what happens to those loyalists? Will they join the Cult, create their own faction, try and get the backing of the Kalimdor Horde, what? It's very interesting. We don't have to just kill them off.
---
TL'DR
Cult of the Forgotten Shadow takes root and overthrows Sylvanas in a short civil war, creating much needed Forsaken development.
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Old 12-28-2013, 09:21 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Sounds good. I don't have too much to add beyond that.
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Old 12-28-2013, 09:45 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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that tag.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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Old 12-28-2013, 10:26 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I would support anything that makes the forsaken change away from Sylvanas.
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Old 12-28-2013, 10:27 AM
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I would support anything that makes the forsaken change away from Sylvanas.
Our Lord Arthas shall return.
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Old 12-28-2013, 11:27 AM
Rufin Rufin is offline

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that tag.
Isn't Fojar dead?
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Old 12-28-2013, 11:34 AM
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Isn't Fojar dead?
I believe he meant the "clit of the forgotten shadow" tag.
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Old 12-28-2013, 11:41 AM
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Isn't Fojar dead?
Without their master's command, the restless Human Paladins will become an even greater threat to this board. Control must be maintained.

There must always be...
*CRASH*
...A Fojar.
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Old 12-28-2013, 11:45 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Don't be intimidated by Fojar! Don't let him dictate what you want or how you think about the game. Tell him he is objectively wrong about everything he believes in.
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Old 12-28-2013, 11:46 AM
Silveraith Silveraith is offline

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I can't see Sylvanas using military force on a new CotFS. Religion is a hard thing to break once it's engraved into the population. If anything I can see her starting up a similar cult that would co-op the former cult so as to worship her as the "Shadow's Chosen" or something similar. Sylvanas likely is keeping an extra close eye on the factions (if there even are any atm) within the Forsaken because last time she took her eye off them she lost the Undercity.

While I do like the idea of taking the focus off Sylvanas I think a focus for the Forsaken should be in acquiring humans in extremely large numbers. Having them live within her territory and worship Undeath. Then when these people die they are rewarded with undeath, allowing them to achieve pseudo-immortality. Basically what the original cult did with Kel'thuzad to build its numbers. In times of war with Forsaken territory is under attack large segments of the population would be killed off to bolster their numbers if they aren't already fighting alongside their undead brothers and sisters to be raised again if they fall.

Boosting other individuals in the Forsaken though would be a good thing. Making Nathanos Ranger-General of the Forsaken and with his own Ranger Corps would be a good way to go about this, Nathanos is also extremely loyal to Sylvanas so no threat of disloyalty from him. Faranell and the Royal Apothecary Society would also be a good candidate for something to do with the Forsaken. Galen could become leader of the Deathguards while working alongside Aleric Hawkins and the Deathstalkers as a merged unit protecting the Forsaken from threats.

Personally I eventually see something being done with the Valkyries, Banshees and Sylvanas, likely a merging of some sort to ensure immortality/prevent true death and the ability to continue to raise the undead.
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Old 12-28-2013, 11:47 AM
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With the revelation that Sylvanas is only using the Forsaken as a personal bulwark to save herself from true death it is quite clear that she is not fit to rule. Right now the Forsaken's problems are greater than every before. They are untrusted by their home faction of the Horde, they needed to blackmail the Blood Elves just for help, neutral factions such as the Knights of the Ebon Blade and the Argent Crusade are watching them, and the Frostwolves, one of the most esteemed Orc clans, have stated that they will never fight alongside them. Why? Because of Sylvanas's goals and actions.
I agree with Fojar that this kind of whitewashing is a joke.

Stop blaming every single thing the Forsaken have done on Sylvanas. Yes, she's a vile, evil bitch out only for herself, and her Cult of personality is a huge part of the Forsaken's mentality, but don't pretend they're innocent in all this.
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Old 12-28-2013, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
I agree with Fojar that this kind of whitewashing is a joke.

Stop blaming every single thing the Forsaken have done on Sylvanas. Yes, she's a vile, evil bitch out only for herself, and her Cult of personality is a huge part of the Forsaken's mentality, but don't pretend they're innocent in all this.
Indeed.
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Old 12-28-2013, 12:01 PM
Rufin Rufin is offline

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Originally Posted by WhinyAlly View Post
I believe he meant the "clit of the forgotten shadow" tag.
Way to kill the joke asshole.
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I can't see Sylvanas using military force on a new CotFS. Religion is a hard thing to break once it's engraved into the population. If anything I can see her starting up a similar cult that would co-op the former cult so as to worship her as the "Shadow's Chosen" or something similar. Sylvanas likely is keeping an extra close eye on the factions (if there even are any atm) within the Forsaken because last time she took her eye off them she lost the Undercity.
Shes ridiculously paranoid. So far the three Forsaken that we've seen go rogue have all been killed off. Sylvanas is all about keeping her shield intact. She can't have her people breaking off to different ideologies, she needs her little Cult of Sylvanas to be their only religion. After a year or two of Cult of the Forgotten Shadow build up among her people she's going to eventually freak.
Quote:
I agree with Fojar that this kind of whitewashing is a joke.

Stop blaming every single thing the Forsaken have done on Sylvanas. Yes, she's a vile, evil bitch out only for herself, and her Cult of personality is a huge part of the Forsaken's mentality, but don't pretend they're innocent in all this.
Now we're blaming all the Forsaken. The problem is that there are 0 Forsaken characters with any affiliation within the political spectrum of the Forsaken that get any face time. Kiryn is the only popular Forsaken right now and they're barely a Forsaken. They could just be a random free-willed undead with the Horde for all we know because they don't have a stance on the Forsaken. Quite frankly we have no idea of what the average Forsaken thinks of their actions.

Beyond that, we have no idea what the Forsaken mentality is. We know they have the capabilities for happiness and love and calm, it's just that those Forsaken get barely any face time so all we're left with are mindless zombies following orders.
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Old 12-28-2013, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
I agree with Fojar that this kind of whitewashing is a joke.

Stop blaming every single thing the Forsaken have done on Sylvanas. Yes, she's a vile, evil bitch out only for herself, and her Cult of personality is a huge part of the Forsaken's mentality, but don't pretend they're innocent in all this.
Great. No one here is denying that. What's your point?
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Old 12-28-2013, 12:27 PM
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I don't think the idea of a major religion or cult dominating Forsaken culture fits well with their themes. They're all about free will, mad science, chemistry, experiments, intelligence, as well as other stereotypical science themes from the late 19th century.

Their worship of Sylvanas is already anathema to everything they say they stand for, it shouldn't be replaced with another cult. I still stand by a democracy with no powerful leaders.
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Old 12-28-2013, 12:27 PM
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Great. No one here is denying that. What's your point?
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Why? Because of Sylvanas's goals and actions.
OP is laying the blame squarely at Sylvanas feet and that's bullshit, is my point.

Unless it turns out she really is Mind Controlling the Forsaken (and I seriously doubt that), they made the decision to join her faction and carry out horrific acts of their own free will.
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Old 12-28-2013, 12:36 PM
Galka Galka is offline

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OP is laying the blame squarely at Sylvanas feet and that's bullshit, is my point.

Unless it turns out she really is Mind Controlling the Forsaken (and I seriously doubt that), they made the decision to join her faction and carry out horrific acts of their own free will.
Not offering any opinions on the argument myself, but it wouldn't be fair to say the bolded without mentioning that new Forsaken are given an ultimatum: join, or return to the grave (was it in hilsbrad? silverpine?). It's still a choice to join, but you can't paint it as such a simple thing.
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Old 12-28-2013, 12:45 PM
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Whether or not its' Sylvanas fault is kind of irrelevant. Mostly, the problem is that the Forsaken are boring and one-dimensional. The OP would address that.
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Old 12-28-2013, 01:06 PM
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Not offering any opinions on the argument myself, but it wouldn't be fair to say the bolded without mentioning that new Forsaken are given an ultimatum: join, or return to the grave (was it in hilsbrad? silverpine?). It's still a choice to join, but you can't paint it as such a simple thing.
Actually, in the Undead starting area(Deathknell, Tirisfal Glades), the newly raised Forsaken are given the choice of doing whatever they please. Some join Sylvanas [seemingly] willingly, others tell you (the player, attempting to recruit them) to get fucked and they AREN'T killed/forced into anything here, they're left to go about their business in their new [un]life, and yes a few 'kill themselves' on the spot, so you could say "return to the grave".

The only time the ones who reject Sylvanas are targeted is when they become rot-brained mindless zombies who are planning to attack the Forsaken.

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Whether or not its' Sylvanas fault or not is kind of irrelevant. Mostly, the problem is that the Forsaken are boring and one-dimensional. The OP would address that.
They're boring and one-dimensional because they're [almost] all shown to be sociopathic murderers with no empathy. A religion around death isn't going to change that.

Not saying they don't need work of course.

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Old 12-28-2013, 01:10 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Arthas, Jaina, Garrosh and Kael cared about their people

Look how they and their kingdoms ended up.

She's the Queen the Forsaken need her to be.
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Old 12-28-2013, 01:13 PM
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They're boring and one-dimensional because they're [almost] all shown to be sociopathic murderers with no empathy. A religion around death isn't going to change that.

Not saying they don't need work of course.
I read the OP as giving the Forsaken a motivation to do something other than what Sylvanas orders. This at least, in theory, allows them to develop in new ways.

Unfortunately, the existing crimes of the Forsaken are so monstrous that it'd no longer be very satisfying. At some point, the faction's leadership needs to be purged by the Alliance.
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Old 12-28-2013, 01:16 PM
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I read the OP as giving the Forsaken a motivation to do something other than what Sylvanas orders. This at least, in theory, allows them to develop in new ways.

Unfortunately, the existing crimes of the Forsaken are so monstrous that it'd no longer be very satisfying. At some point, the faction's leadership needs to be purged by the Alliance.
DING DING DING

Glad it's not just Fojar, Yaska, and me that feel that way.

But a good chunk of the Forsaken population need to go with them. Not saying wipe the entire race out, I draw a line there, but "we were only following orders." didn't work for the SS, it shouldn't work for the Forsaken Armed Forces.

[And yes, I just Godwin'd myself. Totally worth it.]
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Old 12-28-2013, 01:18 PM
Rufin Rufin is offline

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Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
They're boring and one-dimensional because they're [almost] all shown to be sociopathetic murderers with no empathy. A religion around death isn't going to change that.

Not saying they don't need work of course.
The CotFS has almost nothing to do with death. It's about balance.
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"Our power comes from darkness and shadow, <name>, but that is not your only role. You have acknowledged that there is merit in knowing the healing arts. This is wise. But before you can know the dark, you must also know the light." - Dark Cleric Beryl
It's three main tenets are Respect, Tenacity, and Power. The bit about death is really about transcending it, becoming a master of life, you might say. The RPG flat out says that killing randomly and violently is against the code.

But the most important aspect about the cult are the first two. Respect yourself, gain in personal power, then challenge others. It fits with the Forsaken's survivors themes. Tenacity is all about perseverance and utter determination, again, fitting with their original theme of survivors.

As for the sociopath bit:
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A lifetime ago, I was betrothed to marry Elenia, my childhood sweetheart. It's been years since I thought about her last, but of late, she frequently occupies my thoughts.

Perhaps, even with everything that has passed, there can be some room in each other's lives for our love.

I'm sure she has changed, also. Can you deliver this letter to her for me? I am too nervous to give it in person.
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Annalise Lerent: Staffron...
Apothecary Staffron Lerent: Annalise? Is that you?
Annalise Lerent: My dear Staffron, have you forgotten what it is to love? The love that we once shared?
Apothecary Staffron Lerent: Have I forgotten? Of course I have... I have forgotten about love, happiness... of life itself.
Apothecary Staffron Lerent: But I do know this - love makes the heart and body weak. It can be exploited. Without your love, I have only my work, Annalise.
Annalise Lerent: But of course I love you, Staffron. And it pains me to see you suffer so.
Annalise Lerent: I pledge my love to you forever. Death cannot erase that, even as I am sure that you still remember your love for me.
Annalise Lerent: And if you do not, then I am truly lost.
Apothecary Staffron Lerent: How could you love me Annalise? Look at me. I am not the man you once knew.
Apothecary Staffron Lerent: Annalise? Annalise! No, don't leave me!
Apothecary Staffron Lerent: Annalise... You're right. I-I can't do this. I must find another way.
Apothecary Staffron Lerent: You there. You're welcome to take the contents of my cauldron. It was to be the second stage of my plan - amorous clothing.
It's just that Blizz is really shitty at showing that Forsaken have other emotions besides just being stoic. Which, again, is kind of the point of the OP.
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Old 12-28-2013, 01:20 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
DING DING DING

Glad it's not just Fojar, Yaska, and me that feel that way.

But a good chunk of the Forsaken population need to go with them. Not saying wipe the entire race out, I draw a line there, but "we were only following orders." didn't work for the SS, it shouldn't work for the Forsaken Armed Forces.

[And yes, I just Godwin'd myself. Totally worth it.]
Yeah, a good portion of the Deathguard would need to go. Of course, that would render the faction toothless. It might not matter since after SoO (or so I'm guessing) the Horde is already a lot weaker than the Alliance. Really, it shows how Blizzard wrote itself into a corner regarding the Forsaken, and there's not really any clean way for them to get out.
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Old 12-28-2013, 01:23 PM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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The RPG flat out says that killing randomly and violently is against the code.
1/ It's non Canon, as you're surely aware?
2/ Well shit, the Forsaken as a whole are breaking that code then aren't they?

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Originally Posted by Rufin
<Love is in the Air Forsaken guy>
Well remembered, I'll give you that one. I did say it was "almost" all, I know there are the odd exceptions to this.

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
Yeah, a good portion of the Deathguard would need to go. Of course, that would render the faction toothless. It might not matter since after SoO (or so I'm guessing) the Horde is already a lot weaker than the Alliance. Really, it shows how Blizzard wrote itself into a corner regarding the Forsaken, and there's not really any clean way for them to get out.
Quite. I take no pleasure in this.
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