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  #26  
Old 12-28-2013, 01:27 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Hammerbrew View Post
Well remembered, I'll give you that one. I did say it was "almost" all, I know there are the odd exceptions to this.
There's also Leonid Barthalamew and Apothecary Judkins.

It's a shame too, since the Forsaken had the potential to be quite fascinating.
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  #27  
Old 12-28-2013, 01:27 PM
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  #28  
Old 12-28-2013, 01:27 PM
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1/ It's non Canon, as you're surely aware?
2/ Well shit, the Forsaken as a whole are breaking that code then aren't they?
Well, yes the RPG isn't canon, but if that's the case then we have, oh, two references to the Cult in game and that's it. Hard to build up a religion when there's literally only one person in it.
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Well remembered, I'll give you that one. I did say it was "almost" all, I know there are the odd exceptions to this.
Leonid is another exception. So is Lilian Voss.
Frankly Blizzard just needs to show that the Forsaken aren't sociopathic by nature but by nurture. They aren't biologically changed in their heads when they're resurrected, as shown by the brilliance of most Forsaken, which means most of the jaded and angry Forsaken are just that due to the pains of their life, rather than a natural condition for them.
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  #29  
Old 12-28-2013, 01:30 PM
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One of the main questions should also be: How far can you "redeem" them before they turn into humans with a slight skin condition which would make their whole existence as a group pointless?
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  #30  
Old 12-28-2013, 01:30 PM
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Well, yes the RPG isn't canon, but if that's the case then we have, oh, two references to the Cult in game and that's it. Hard to build up a religion when there's literally only one person in it.

Leonid is another exception. So is Lilian Voss.
Frankly Blizzard just needs to show that the Forsaken aren't sociopathic by nature but by nurture. They aren't biologically changed in their heads when they're resurrected, as shown by the brilliance of most Forsaken, which means most of the jaded and angry Forsaken are just that due to the pains of their life, rather than a natural condition for them.
I always figured the more interesting route was that Forsaken are naturally inclined to be darker in thought and emotion, but that this isn't set in stone. They can change. A Forsaken who, say, got out of Undercity and lived in Kalimdor or Booty Bay would find alternatives to being angry all the time.
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  #31  
Old 12-28-2013, 01:32 PM
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I'm all for developing the faith side of Warcraft so the involvement of the Cult is always ok in my book. As long as Blizzard doesn't manage to do it all wrong .
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  #32  
Old 12-28-2013, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Rufin View Post
Leonid is another exception. So is Lilian Voss.
Frankly Blizzard just needs to show that the Forsaken aren't sociopathic by nature but by nurture. They aren't biologically changed in their heads when they're resurrected, as shown by the brilliance of most Forsaken, which means most of the jaded and angry Forsaken are just that due to the pains of their life, rather than a natural condition for them.
Leonid, yes. Voss, jury is out on that one.

But yes I'll agree with you there.

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One of the main questions should also be: How far can you "redeem" them before they turn into humans with a slight skin condition which would make their whole existence as a group pointless?
This is indeed the crux of the issue.

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I always figured the more interesting route was that Forsaken are naturally inclined to be darker in thought and emotion, but that this isn't set in stone. They can change. A Forsaken who, say, got out of Undercity and lived in Kalimdor or Booty Bay would find alternatives to being angry all the time.
Quite.

Does anyone else remember the old Vanilla Hillsbrad/Alterac (I forget which, they were 2 seperate zones at this point remember) internment camp for 4 Forsaken who actually told Sylvanas to fuck off and took artifacts from her?

I still remember to this day the general tone, if not exact words, of the Human Female Camp Commander's diary. She basically said they were interesting, intelligent "people", who clearly disliked what their fact stood for, and planned to do.

It was mixed in with an Old Gods hint with the trinkets, as I recall, but still, doesn't change the Forsaken/Human interaction there.
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  #33  
Old 12-28-2013, 01:43 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Does anyone else remember the old Vanilla Hillsbrad/Alterac (I forget which, they were 2 seperate zones at this point remember) internment camp for 4 Forsaken who actually told Sylvanas to fuck off and took artifacts from her?

I still remember to this day the general tone, if not exact words, of the Human Female Camp Commander's diary. She basically said they were interesting, intelligent "people", who clearly disliked what their fact stood for, and planned to do.

It was mixed in with an Old Gods hint with the trinkets, as I recall, but still, doesn't change the Forsaken/Human interaction there.
Yeah, I remember that too. It was a great quest, and it's unfortunate you didn't have the opportunity to secretly help them escape.

As loathsome as I find the current iteration of Hillsbrad, it is nice that you have the option to free the buried Alliance prisoners even as a Horde player.
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  #34  
Old 12-28-2013, 01:47 PM
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DING DING DING

Glad it's not just Fojar, Yaska, and me that feel that way.

But a good chunk of the Forsaken population need to go with them. Not saying wipe the entire race out, I draw a line there, but "we were only following orders." didn't work for the SS, it shouldn't work for the Forsaken Armed Forces.

[And yes, I just Godwin'd myself. Totally worth it.]
To me, my concern would be that it just ends up a repeat of the Kor'kron. They purge all the Garrosh supporting Orcs, and everybody gets let off the hook. At least the future-Rebellion leaders gave Garrosh some lip, but the Forsaken don't even really have elements who do that, aside from Argent Crusade membership, unless the 'purge' refers more to the Old Guard of Scourge-raised compared to those who apparently had a choice. Some actual dissent would need to be written in, even if it was "Oh it was there all along guys!"

I do agree with you, but I'd be curious to see how Blizzard actually do it without just being SoO 2.0. Then again Kosak probably won't kill off his waifu.
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  #35  
Old 12-28-2013, 02:07 PM
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To me, my concern would be that it just ends up a repeat of the Kor'kron. They purge all the Garrosh supporting Orcs, and everybody gets let off the hook. At least the future-Rebellion leaders gave Garrosh some lip, but the Forsaken don't even really have elements who do that, aside from Argent Crusade membership, unless the 'purge' refers more to the Old Guard of Scourge-raised compared to those who apparently had a choice. Some actual dissent would need to be written in, even if it was "Oh it was there all along guys!"

I do agree with you, but I'd be curious to see how Blizzard actually do it without just being SoO 2.0. Then again Kosak probably won't kill off his waifu.
It almost certainly will be like the Kor'kron. The Forsaken are a playable race and after SoO, the horde player base isn't likely to be accepting of another of its racial groups getting completely gutted, particularly by the Alliance.

Yeah, it might not make the plot particularly satisfying considering the history behind the story but this is the problem with making playable factions, or even parts of playable factions, the villians.
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  #36  
Old 12-28-2013, 02:30 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Great. No one here is denying that. What's your point?
The idea that pushing all the blame onto Sylvanas and that getting rid of her will suddenly make the Forsaken not evil is denying that anyone but her is responsible for their actions.

This is literally the same fucking thing they did with Garrosh in MoP. Who here thinks that was awesome? Raise your hands.
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  #37  
Old 12-28-2013, 02:37 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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The idea that pushing all the blame onto Sylvanas and that getting rid of her will suddenly make the Forsaken not evil is denying that anyone but her is responsible for their actions.

This is literally the same fucking thing they did with Garrosh in MoP. Who here thinks that was awesome? Raise your hands.
Can we just not have things like Garrosh and Sylvanas happen in the Horde?
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  #38  
Old 12-28-2013, 02:39 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Can we just not have things like Garrosh and Sylvanas happen in the Horde?
Too late.
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  #39  
Old 12-28-2013, 02:43 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Too late.
Can we have an expansion where I make teddy bears for Alliance orphans with tailoring? I can plant trees in Ashenvale. Build homes in Westfall. It would be a lot of fun.
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  #40  
Old 12-28-2013, 02:45 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Can we have an expansion where I make teddy bears for Alliance orphans with tailoring? I can plant trees in Ashenvale. Build homes in Westfall. It would be a lot of fun.
You can rejoin the Alliance.
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  #41  
Old 12-28-2013, 02:46 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Can we have an expansion where I make teddy bears for Alliance orphans with tailoring? I can plant trees in Ashenvale. Build homes in Westfall. It would be a lot of fun.
Sounds nice but Blizzard says no. Not #savage enough.
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  #42  
Old 12-28-2013, 02:48 PM
Rufin Rufin is offline

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The idea that pushing all the blame onto Sylvanas and that getting rid of her will suddenly make the Forsaken not evil is denying that anyone but her is responsible for their actions.

This is literally the same fucking thing they did with Garrosh in MoP. Who here thinks that was awesome? Raise your hands.
If it makes you feel better it won't the Alliance can take Sylvanas in for war crimes and regain control of Gilnaes and Strom (I'm assuming Southshore is still uninhabitable and no one wants it back).

Some people on the Horde side view this as surrendering, and it technically is. But it's really the Arthas gambit, something that I thought up a while back.

Forsaken should be making a core army of actual strength. They should embrace fighting strong people and not farmers. When they fight races like the Mogu or Demons they can't just wololol ressurect their way to victory. They're going to need a fighting force that can actually fight with strategy and skill. The current way of bolstering Forsaken ranks is by just resurrecting anyone they kill, which is really just padding their ranks with cannon fodder.

So now when the Forsaken end up fighting on Draenor or on Argus they will have a strong army that can take out the enemy heavy troops. Plus, those humans that we spare today are going to be on the frontlines as their ally tomorrow. Better to raise a strong fighter on the battlefield than a farmer that doesn't know how to swing a blade today.

EDIT for clarification, I mean I wan't the Forsaken to be fighting without the use of raising the dead. I wan't that to be something they save for when they're fighting alongside the human races in the Army of the Light.
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  #43  
Old 12-28-2013, 03:51 PM
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Y'all need to tone down the factionalism. Basically, we need more Klaxxi style Forsaken as opposed to those who idolize their Queen.
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  #44  
Old 12-28-2013, 04:43 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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You can rejoin the Alliance.
Genesis says that I am in the Horde now and I need to suck it up.
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  #45  
Old 12-28-2013, 04:51 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Genesis says that I am in the Horde now and I need to suck it up.
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  #46  
Old 12-29-2013, 11:34 AM
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Y'all need to tone down the factionalism. Basically, we need more Klaxxi style Forsaken as opposed to those who idolize their Queen.
Yeah... That's pretty much it. I liked the Klaxxi because they reminded me a lot about what I liked in the Forsaken.

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I don't think the idea of a major religion or cult dominating Forsaken culture fits well with their themes. They're all about free will, mad science, chemistry, experiments, intelligence, as well as other stereotypical science themes from the late 19th century.

Their worship of Sylvanas is already anathema to everything they say they stand for, it shouldn't be replaced with another cult. I still stand by a democracy with no powerful leaders.
What makes you think the Cult of Forgotten Shadow is opposed in any way to mad science, free will, or intelligence?

All the lore that's ever existed on the Cult suggests quite the opposite. The Cult has always been about free will, intelligence, and seeking to master power. Experimentation and mad science can easily work alongside or even under a Cult that is dedicated to understanding the universe as a whole and mastering all of its powers. In the RPG there were plenty of individual differences in opinions on matters.

So, why do you think they would be somehow opposed to freewill, intelligence, or experimentation just because they were a religion? Because really, what has been known about them is that they're much more likely to celebrate and encourage all of those things rather than try and stand in the way.

Science and religion don't always have to oppose one another, especially in a universe where magic is very easily observable as a thing that is certainly a thing. Also noteworthy is that the Cult of Forgotten Shadow isn't about submission or servitude to any higher power, but rather about mastering that power in such a way that it does not master you.

As for the first post which asked if I could name five Forsaken that weren't Sylvanas... Well, it's been awhile. But I'll try. I do recall Deathstalker Commander Belmont, Deathguard Darnell, Helcular, Apothecary Lydon, and... Oh yeah, there was Kyrin. But I'm sure there are others I've forgotten the names of.

As for what they've been doing... Belmont has been enjoying himself running operations killing traitors and fighting Worgen with Cromush watching him, Darnell initially accompanied the player through their starting experience and has apparently been promoted and fights in Hyjal now, which is quite great for him. He deserved it. Helcular is doing his thing as one of the few actual Necromancers the Forsaken have, and is currently working on how to raise other races. Such work will be necessary once the Val'kyr run out. Lydon has been doing Apothecary stuff and was captured by Warden Stillwater for a time after Lydon discovered the Warden's crimes against the Forsaken, and with the assistance of the player brought him to justice. I have no idea what he's been doing now, but it would be nice if he was looking over the Warden's research notes to see if the errors in it were anything that could be fixed.

And Kyrin has been making out with some monkey or some other such thing. Oh! And there's Dumass! The obvious future ruler of all the Forsaken! Let's all take a moment to never forget him.

And yeah... Those are all the living characters I still remember, other than that Argent Apothecary Judkins who probably doesn't count anymore. He apparently saw no problem working on Forsaken Apothecary stuffs until he came to the conclusion that Sylvanas had changed somehow. So yeah, that's an attitude I like. Willing to help create horrific weapons, but principled enough to dislike their misuse. Yay.
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  #47  
Old 12-29-2013, 12:23 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Genesis says that I am in the Horde now and I need to suck it up.
Don't listen to Genesis. When high elves become playable one day you can always change faction.
I don't think you're not allowed to transmog your red gear .
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