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Old 08-31-2015, 12:57 PM
Undeadprotoss Undeadprotoss is offline

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Default Can the Forsaken Be Redeemed?

As we all know, the invasion of Gilneas marked a fundamental change in the dynamics of the race. No longer a small minority at odds with the Scourge, the Alliance, and the Scarlet Crusade (at least to a lesser degree). The Forsaken are now the overt aggressors, this makes it much harder to emphasize and sympthasize with much of the race as a whole generally as well as Sylvanas specifically.

So my question is, do you think the Forsaken can have a good or at least non-terrible redemption arc? Do you think they could ever occupy the position they held before while garnering any sincere sympathy? How might this happen within the constraints of the game? Could you conceive the Forsaken giving back the lands of Gilneas?
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Old 08-31-2015, 12:59 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Nope.
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  #3  
Old 08-31-2015, 01:02 PM
Undeadprotoss Undeadprotoss is offline

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Nope.
What would you think about something similar to the orc (Pre-WOD) redemption story, but instead of being corrupted by the burning legion, whatever powers under Tirisfal have caused them to lose compassion steadily, I know it would probably end up feeling stupid, but, in your view, is that story mechanic unusable?
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Old 08-31-2015, 01:04 PM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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No, and they shouldn't be.
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Old 08-31-2015, 01:10 PM
Undeadprotoss Undeadprotoss is offline

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No, and they shouldn't be.
Do you think they could be place in a position that would render them more morally grey instead of just pure evil?
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Old 08-31-2015, 01:16 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Undeadprotoss View Post
What would you think about something similar to the orc (Pre-WOD) redemption story, but instead of being corrupted by the burning legion, whatever powers under Tirisfal have caused them to lose compassion steadily, I know it would probably end up feeling stupid, but, in your view, is that story mechanic unusable?
Pretty much, yeah. Not only is it blatantly recycling the Orcs' "get out of karma free" card, there's not even any good precedent, like there was with old school Orcs being affiliated with demons.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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Old 08-31-2015, 01:26 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Can they? Yes because Blizzard.

Should they? No but Blizzard.

Also this is based on the idea that the Forsaken are evil, and good luck convincing the fan base that the race is. You can't redeem what has never been evil.
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Old 08-31-2015, 01:29 PM
Undeadprotoss Undeadprotoss is offline

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Can they? Yes because Blizzard.

Should they? No but Blizzard.

Also this is based on the idea that the Forsaken are evil, and good luck convincing the fan base that the race is. You can't redeem what has never been evil.
I am personally a Forsaken fan, in the sense that I think that they're fantasy has the potential to be very strong if it was/is played out correctly. Perhaps if something along the lines of an ideological shift in the society came to be, maybe another leader slowly rose to power, or maybe Sylvanas develops a change of heart.

Last edited by Undeadprotoss; 08-31-2015 at 01:31 PM.. Reason: Should've been worded better.
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  #9  
Old 08-31-2015, 01:31 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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They can. By accepting their state is unnatural, their existence and actions bring only pain to the world of living, while burdening their souls with sins that will only lead to the eternal damnation as is the case of their Queen and that only a willing self-sacrifice to the holy fire will cleanse their souls and free them from the shackles of undeath.

Last edited by Marthen; 08-31-2015 at 01:35 PM..
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Old 08-31-2015, 01:32 PM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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Do you think they could be place in a position that would render them more morally grey instead of just pure evil?
At this point not with any good explanation. Unless that explanation is the Alliance and the Argent Crusade beating the unliving crap out of them, heavily diminishing their numbers and chances of ever recovering from the loss, burning Sylvanas on a big, lovely bonfire, all while the rest of the Horde's leadership look the other way.

And this is coming from someone who's quite fond of the faction.
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Old 08-31-2015, 01:33 PM
Undeadprotoss Undeadprotoss is offline

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They can. By accepting their state is unnatural, their existence and actions bring only pain to the world of living, while burdening their souls with sins that will only lead to eternal damnation as is the case of their Queen and that only willing sacrifice to the holy fire will cleanse their souls and free them from the shackles of undeath.
That makes me consider an interesting question actually, say you're a violent criminal, and you come to realize the full extent of the atrocities that you've committed, would it be better to do surrender your life to doing good deeds in the form of combating a vile enemy? Or would you simply need to accept what punishment society has deemed is fit for you?
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Old 08-31-2015, 02:29 PM
Sacredless Sacredless is offline

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I roleplay a night elf undead character for the simple reason that Elune seems to be the only goddess that can redeem souls to people and a peaceful afterlife. All undead face eternal darkness and I presume that some, perhaps all undead know this (what with some of them having been brought back more than once).

Service to Elune is said to earn you a place amongst the stars in the afterlife and presumably releasing you from a destiny where your soul is shred asunder forever, but I wager that that is a question of agnostic belief more than most things in the Warcraft universe.

I think that Sylvanas would know if simply being cleansed by holy fire would release her from the torment of the afterlife. I think it'd be a bit of a cop-out too. So, I don't think that mortals can grant the Forsaken the peaceful afterlife they seek, unlike other "natural" undead.

Last edited by Sacredless; 08-31-2015 at 02:31 PM..
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  #13  
Old 08-31-2015, 02:57 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Do you think they could be place in a position that would render them more morally grey instead of just pure evil?
No. Not only have they been evil from their very inception but the ship has sailed on them being redeemed by anything short of a massive sacrifice on their end for entirely selfless reasons.
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  #14  
Old 08-31-2015, 03:39 PM
Bullroarer Bullroarer is offline

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Only via Divine Intervention.

They've reached the point where only something like Mu'ru pulling Jesus scenario for the Blood Elves could redeem them.

But that of course would be worse than death. People don't play undead pick daisies and play with fairies.

Another scenario, they are locked away for thousands of years and only by doing a good deed for the last of a certain bloodline can they find freedom,...like lord of the rings.
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Old 08-31-2015, 03:44 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Only via Divine Intervention.

They've reached the point where only something like Mu'ru pulling Jesus scenario for the Blood Elves could redeem them.
I assume you're speaking mechanically, because from a narrative perspective that would be utter bullshit.
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  #16  
Old 08-31-2015, 03:49 PM
Bullroarer Bullroarer is offline

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I assume you're speaking mechanically, because from a narrative perspective that would be utter bullshit.
Mechanically it would make sense.

As for narrative, I personally don't want them redeemed.
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  #17  
Old 08-31-2015, 03:53 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Mechanically it would make sense.
And narratively, it was and would be bullshit for a race of evil bastards to be redeemed by the actions of a third-party godhead.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #18  
Old 08-31-2015, 03:54 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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And narratively, it was and would be bullshit for a race of evil bastards to be redeemed by the actions of a third-party godhead.
Which is why it will happen.
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Old 08-31-2015, 03:55 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Which is why it will happen.
Hey, I'm just saiyan.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #20  
Old 08-31-2015, 04:14 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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The Forsaken could go to Icecrown and help clean up. Or some other place with Scourge problems. Maybe fel clean up. There are a number of things they could do.

They won't and shouldn't. They're not worth saving.
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Old 08-31-2015, 04:25 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I'd be willing to accept some individual Forsaken finding redemption (example: those who weren't really involved with the faction, or who left after finding out how bad it was?arguably, this group wouldn't even need much in the way of redemption since they didn't actually do anything wrong), but the faction as a whole is well beyond that point. Sylvanas needs to be arrested/executed, along with the RAS and most of the high-ranking Deathguard. The rest need to do some serious introspection under close observation.
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  #22  
Old 08-31-2015, 04:35 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Forsaken are bad and should not remain just because of potential they used to have
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  #23  
Old 08-31-2015, 04:50 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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You guys are basing redemption based on either an Alliance fan's pov who's exhausted on the conflict, or someone who doesn't want the faction conflict. To Horde fans who want the conflict, they do no wrong, and should continue to antagonize the Alliance. To Alliance fans who want the conflict, there is no redemption. We won't ever have Vanilla WoW again. We could get Wrath, or WoD, but the factions will be united in fighting the other factions.
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Old 08-31-2015, 04:55 PM
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they should replace the forsaken with undead cultists that are from alterac.
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Old 08-31-2015, 05:00 PM
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The Forsaken have always been overt aggressors, it's not like they've been rather clever in attacking Alliance holdings in vanilla.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Undeadprotoss View Post
What would you think about something similar to the orc (Pre-WOD) redemption story, but instead of being corrupted by the burning legion, whatever powers under Tirisfal have caused them to lose compassion steadily, I know it would probably end up feeling stupid, but, in your view, is that story mechanic unusable?
That is completely ridiculous, and ignores the more obvious problem that explains why regular humans and high elves turned into evil bastards: because they were turned undead.

It's more than just a skin condition and terrible BO, and the sooner everyone (especially the devs) can realize that, the better. Undeath is a state that is closer to the void - that is, the source of bad juju - than the Light.

That said, as a group, no they cannot, and they will not, not by my definition. A few Forsaken may be less terrible than the others (see the cockroach vendor), but on the whole they're just evil bastards who do evil things for evil reasons (like continuing their evil existence), and all Cataclysm did is was show them winning and everyone else ignoring them for the sake of "muh honorable and #savage horde".
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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