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  #101  
Old 04-13-2014, 09:16 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Originally Posted by Liuv View Post
Hence his later speech about how neither faction actually cared about his people and were just interested in using them.
Hasn't that always been what Silvermoon's foreign policy has been towards their allies since forever? At least Quel'thalas' hypocrisy is consistent if nothing else.
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  #102  
Old 04-13-2014, 09:51 AM
Liuv Liuv is offline

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Hasn't that always been what Silvermoon's foreign policy has been towards their allies since forever? At least Quel'thalas' hypocrisy is consistent if nothing else.
Ehhh...kinda? Thing is they never really pretended otherwise towards said allies and they usually offered something of 'equivalency' in return for using them. They needed human help during the Troll Wars? In return they gave humans magic. They wanted revenge for burned forests in the Second War? They supported the Alliance in taking down the Horde and left when that job was done etc...

They've never supported a group just because 'hey, we're friends'; Silvermoon doesn't have friends, it has business arrangements and everyone they've ever worked with knows it. Well expect for Garrosh who decided to take from them and offer nothing back.
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  #103  
Old 04-13-2014, 10:14 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Ehhh...kinda? Thing is they never really pretended otherwise towards said allies and they usually offered something of 'equivalency' in return for using them. They needed human help during the Troll Wars? In return they gave humans magic. They wanted revenge for burned forests in the Second War? They supported the Alliance in taking down the Horde and left when that job was done etc...

They've never supported a group just because 'hey, we're friends'; Silvermoon doesn't have friends, it has business arrangements and everyone they've ever worked with knows it. Well expect for Garrosh who decided to take from them and offer nothing back.
They ditched the Alliance once Quel'thalas alone was safe and threw a tantrum the humans didn't do a better job protecting it.

They didn't assist Lordaeron and threw another tantrum when Lordaeron didn't suddenly spring back to life and save them from the Scourge, even if they were justifiably pissed off at Garithos.

They threw a tantrum about Dalaran but come crawling back to it.

They didn't want to assist the Forsaken in Northrend despite the support given to them in exchange

They wanted out the second that the Horde ship started sinking.

And they always act like everybody else should help them when barely offering anything in return. At all. They're like the guy in your group project who sits at the end of the table doing absolutely nothing until somebody has to keep pushing him to get involved, where upon he'll throw a sulk about it and do the bare minimum, then complain when the project falls behind target and that it's everybody elses fault.

At least the Gilneans realised they were being idiots. The Blood Elves sit there and wonder why nobody likes them. They don't have business arrangements, they have favours they never repay.
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  #104  
Old 04-13-2014, 10:49 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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I believe the Forsaken and the Blood Elves both held a positive inclination towards Thrall, rather than the Orcs as a whole. He is a rather compassionate character, and he's stepped up for both races before.

Were Thrall to head to Lordaeron to protect the nation from an Alliance offensive, I believe he would have been able to mobilize both the Blood Elves and the Frostwolf, both who refused aid under Garrosh and Sylvanas. I think that the Gilneans, when the Cataclysm struck, might even have joined the Horde, depending on the Horde's actions during the civil war. The Gilnean rebellion wanted to join the Alliance - had the Horde assisted the Greymane family in supressing the rebellion during the Worgen outbreak, things might have turned out differently. At the very worst, Lordaeron and Gilneas could have agreed to a no-action agreement, the Horde would not enter Gilneas, and Gilneas would not leave their borders to meddle in the ongoing conflict between Lordaeron and the Alliance.

I also think an interesting spin on Timelion's idea would be for Thrall to vanish not en-route to EK, but vanish on his return to Kalimdor, upon hearing what Garrosh has been doing there.
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  #105  
Old 04-13-2014, 11:03 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Moira's back and the "Council of Three Hammers" is a result of her bribing / manipulting the senate into putting an old law designed for issues of succession and leadership into play.


She basically says Magni's unfit to rule and uses the shoddy state of things in Wetlands and his unwillingness to work with the Dark Iron's now that she's returned as 'evidence'.

I'm not bringing muradin back to life.


Magni talks with Rohan and realistically she doesn't have a leg to stand on, but between bribing the senate and her having a mix of Dark Iron and local support, his only way to really put a stop to this nonsense would be armed conflict and that's not something he's going to do to his daughter / own people, many of whom still like him but are just taken in by her fearmongering.
Magni's the king, there isn't anything Moria could do that would let her do that. The King is the law in IF, more or less and the Dark Irons wouldn't have any authority in those lands. Unless you're changing how things work (and making Magni a lot less powerful as King), I can't see how it would be possible for Moira to pull a coup like that. Especially since a lot of Bronzebeards, most I'd say, don't like the Dark Irons and would fight them. It's kind of hard to imagine the DIs could show up and say they now have a voice in IF politics. They might be dwarves, but they -aren't- Bronzebeards. There'd have to be some pretty corrupt Bronzebeards in that Senate to be willing to overthrow their own King.
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  #106  
Old 04-13-2014, 11:03 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
I believe the Forsaken and the Blood Elves both held a positive inclination towards Thrall, rather than the Orcs as a whole. He is a rather compassionate character, and he's stepped up for both races before.
Wasn't it the Tauren who convinced Thrall to let in the Forsaken and Blood Elves both times? The former to find a cure for undeath, the latter because it would be hypocritical to judge the Belves due to fel affliction.
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  #107  
Old 04-13-2014, 11:05 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
Wasn't it the Tauren who convinced Thrall to let in the Forsaken and Blood Elves both times? The former to find a cure for undeath, the latter because it would be hypocritical to judge the Belves due to fel affliction.
I was referring to Sylvanas and the Forsaken seeking refuge in Orgrimmar after Putress' coup de'etat. And also the Horde standing by the Blood Elves when Kael'thas treachery was revealed.
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Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

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  #108  
Old 04-13-2014, 11:13 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Magni's the king, there isn't anything Moria could do that would let her do that. The King is the law in IF, more or less and the Dark Irons wouldn't have any authority in those lands. Unless you're changing how things work (and making Magni a lot less powerful as King), I can't see how it would be possible for Moira to pull a coup like that. Especially since a lot of Bronzebeards, most I'd say, don't like the Dark Irons and would fight them. It's kind of hard to imagine the DIs could show up and say they now have a voice in IF politics. They might be dwarves, but they -aren't- Bronzebeards. There'd have to be some pretty corrupt Bronzebeards in that Senate to be willing to overthrow their own King.
I think you're underestimating the power of the senate and they're not overthrowing him, merely putting an old and obscure law into effect to give a veneer of legitimacy to Moira, though they're violating the spirit of it.

Basically Magni -could- call BS on this and kick them out but she's not doing anything -bad- really and there are enough of them that it'd take an actual fight and he doesn't want to do that if there's a chance of reasoning with her.

Keep in mind even in Vanilla there were Dark Iron sympathizers among the bronzebeards.
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  #109  
Old 04-13-2014, 11:34 AM
Liuv Liuv is offline

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They ditched the Alliance once Quel'thalas alone was safe and threw a tantrum the humans didn't do a better job protecting it.
Yeah, when the Second War was over. Unless somethings changed since then they fought to protect their home and left when their home was safe. They never promised anything more than that.

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They didn't assist Lordaeron (1) and threw another tantrum when Lordaeron didn't suddenly spring back to life and save them from the Scourge (2), even if they were justifiably pissed off at Garithos.
(1) Nor did Gilneas, Dalaran, Stromgarde, Stormwind or Ironforge etc... Help, if any, came from those nations waaay to late and most seemed to have written Lordaeron off as dead well before that.

(2) Since when? I know they blamed Arthas, and incorrectly the nation that birthed him, but I don't think the elves of all people were waiting with baited breath for humans to save them.

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They threw a tantrum about Dalaran but come crawling back to it.
As was discussed in Lor'themar's short story a good number of the elves still in Eversong, i.e not Kael's forces, were still supporters of Dalaran and would've still been considered citizens of it etc...

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They didn't want to assist the Forsaken in Northrend despite the support given to them in exchange
Again, as their short story talks about, it was less being unwilling and more being unable. The blood elves were not in the best position following BC, what with the whole civil war at Quel'danas and all.

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They wanted out the second that the Horde ship started sinking.
Yeah. Same with the Alliance after the Second War, the Troll War or anytime that they've ever had to work with outside races.

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And they always act like everybody else should help them when barely offering anything in return. At all. They're like the guy in your group project who sits at the end of the table doing absolutely nothing until somebody has to keep pushing him to get involved, where upon he'll throw a sulk about it and do the bare minimum, then complain when the project falls behind target and that it's everybody elses fault.
Prior to WC3 they helped little because they had no need to. When they would help though it would be to do exactly what they said they would, no more and no less; they were there to get a job done, not to make friends. In modern WoW they do little because they're supposed to be race teetering on the edge of extinction. They don't send out massive armies or try to get involved in long campaigns because they usually can't afford to.

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At least the Gilneans realised they were being idiots. The Blood Elves sit there and wonder why nobody likes them. They don't have business arrangements, they have favours they never repay.
They repaid the humans after the Troll Wars by teaching them magic.

They defend their home and the Alliance at large during the Second War.

They -still- went back to Lordaeron to do what they had to to defend their homes, even with an idiot like Garithos in charge.

They paid the Horde back for saving them by leading virtually all the charges in BC, helping in Wrath albeit after being strong armed and stealing the Divine Bell among other dirty deeds in MoP. Oh, and that whole Thunder Isle scenario was 100% them as well.

The blood elves do honor their agreements. Its just they don't lift a finger more to do what isn't laid out in the fine print, half out of preference and half out of general apathy towards problems that they don't see as theirs.

Last edited by Liuv; 04-13-2014 at 11:37 AM..
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  #110  
Old 04-13-2014, 11:41 AM
Liuv Liuv is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
I think you're underestimating the power of the senate and they're not overthrowing him, merely putting an old and obscure law into effect to give a veneer of legitimacy to Moira, though they're violating the spirit of it.

Basically Magni -could- call BS on this and kick them out but she's not doing anything -bad- really and there are enough of them that it'd take an actual fight and he doesn't want to do that if there's a chance of reasoning with her.

Keep in mind even in Vanilla there were Dark Iron sympathizers among the bronzebeards.
Besides that fact Ironforge isn't the same city it was in Magni's time. Where it was once almost solidly Bronzebeads there's now sizeable Wildhammer and Dark Iron minorities living alongside them. And I'd guess since there isn't another dwarf civil war on they've managed to decently integrate themselves under that mountain. But if you toss out the Council and leave only a Bronzebeard king in charge...that could get messy.
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  #111  
Old 04-13-2014, 11:43 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Besides that fact Ironforge isn't the same city it was in Magni's time. Where it was once almost solidly Bronzebeads there's now sizeable Wildhammer and Dark Iron minorities living alongside them. And I'd guess since there isn't another dwarf civil war on they've managed to decently integrate themselves under that mountain. But if you toss out the Council and leave only a Bronzebeard king in charge...that could get messy.
I'm not sure where you're getting the minorities from and such, that hasn't happened in this iteration yet.
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  #112  
Old 04-13-2014, 12:43 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Liuv View Post
Besides that fact Ironforge isn't the same city it was in Magni's time. Where it was once almost solidly Bronzebeads there's now sizeable Wildhammer and Dark Iron minorities living alongside them. And I'd guess since there isn't another dwarf civil war on they've managed to decently integrate themselves under that mountain. But if you toss out the Council and leave only a Bronzebeard king in charge...that could get messy.
How true is this really?

Here's one of Falstad's quotes from Heroes of the Storm.
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Originally Posted by Falstad
"It's nice ta' get out of Ironforge. I dunna' how those Bronzebeards can stand that cave."
I don't think the Wildhammer particularly care for Ironforge. And considering how the Dark Irons and Bronzebeards hate each other, and how questing supported there being fighting and subterfuge between the groups, I don't think that the Dark Iron have been welcomed in to Ironforge.
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  #113  
Old 04-13-2014, 01:08 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by Liuv View Post
Besides that fact Ironforge isn't the same city it was in Magni's time. Where it was once almost solidly Bronzebeads there's now sizeable Wildhammer and Dark Iron minorities living alongside them. And I'd guess since there isn't another dwarf civil war on they've managed to decently integrate themselves under that mountain. But if you toss out the Council and leave only a Bronzebeard king in charge...that could get messy.
Erthad sums up my point well. As hated as the DIs are by the Bronzebeards, the odds of them just being allowed alive into the city are slim. The Thorium Brotherhood might get entry, but the DIs from Blackrock Mountain? I'm not so sure about that. That's the sticking point, the DIs and Moira being allowed to live in the city in the first place.

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I think you're underestimating the power of the senate and they're not overthrowing him, merely putting an old and obscure law into effect to give a veneer of legitimacy to Moira, though they're violating the spirit of it.

Basically Magni -could- call BS on this and kick them out but she's not doing anything -bad- really and there are enough of them that it'd take an actual fight and he doesn't want to do that if there's a chance of reasoning with her.

Keep in mind even in Vanilla there were Dark Iron sympathizers among the bronzebeards.
Not a lot of sympathizers though. The Senate likely has a fair amount of power, but I seriously doubt it has enough to stand against the King, unless the entire Senate is opposing the King, then it falls down to who the military obeys. The Senate or the King? Moira bringing DIs into IF (assuming more than 20 got past the gate alive) and trying to give them a political voice would likely be seen as an act of aggression. If the DIs are to live in the lands of Ironforge/Khaz Modan, they will have to do so under Bronzebeard law.

Last edited by Kynrind; 04-13-2014 at 03:44 PM..
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  #114  
Old 04-13-2014, 02:48 PM
Insipid_Lobster Insipid_Lobster is offline

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Wasn't it the Tauren who convinced Thrall to let in the Forsaken and Blood Elves both times? The former to find a cure for undeath, the latter because it would be hypocritical to judge the Belves due to fel affliction.
A small part of it, yes. Although the two biggest factors was that they cleared up their own dirty laundry with the forsaken - Drathir - and the fact that they confirmed the mag'ar do exist, they had a fair amount of control over Outland which would allow the orcs to rejoin their untainted kind with relative ease although said control was pretty much destroyed when Kael went batshit.
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