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  #5401  
Old 01-09-2015, 11:35 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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Of course they do, they view them as traitors. Traitors are always treated worse than foes. Except for heretics, they're given no mercy.
"Fun" fact : for ISIS, the French who are against the attacks are both heretics and traitors. You can imagine how they would be treated...
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  #5402  
Old 01-09-2015, 11:36 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Isn't a heretic just a religious traitor?
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  #5403  
Old 01-09-2015, 12:34 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Isn't a heretic just a religious traitor?
i'll illuminate on my use of heretic in this sense. The yazidi kurds are neither traitors nor foes to the IS and many muslims, they're devil worshipping heretics and must all die.
Their religion is a bastardization of Zoroastrianism, Islam and Christianity. to be muslim and not follow their view on islam makes you a traitor in their eyes but to "corrupt" the word of the Prophet? Worst of sacrileges.
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  #5404  
Old 01-09-2015, 12:37 PM
ZhulDjinn ZhulDjinn is offline

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Yeah heretic is pretty much "not believing in the right stuff" isnt it?
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  #5405  
Old 01-09-2015, 12:43 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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Isn't a heretic just a religious traitor?
Depends what you mean by "religious traitor"
Technically, if you're a religious traitor that would be covered under the term apostasy, for converting out of Islam.

Hereticism or "Bid'ah" is not believing in the right things.
According to Salafi Islam (also known as Wahabiism), all Shi'ites are technically heretics.

It's kinda why groups like the Islamic State and Saudi Arabia aren't all that friendly to Shi'ites.
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  #5406  
Old 01-09-2015, 12:44 PM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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The secular meaning is convoluted and unnecessary, creating issues such as people who want marriage benefits without the baggage of the title or commitment, and people who want the title without the governmental effects, and people who should be allowed to have it all from an objective standpoint but are not allowed to because the secular definition still has hang-ons from the religious definition (polygamous relationships, non-romantic temporary roomates, etc.).

It's not that marriage "now has a secular meaning". It's that the secular meaning hasn't figured itself out yet, and when it finally does figure itself out people aren't going to think of it as "marriage" anymore because their understanding of the term is still connected to the spiritual/emotional/romantic understanding, even if that understanding has nothing to do with religion in their own minds, and that's the kind of area that government has no right to touch.
The secular meaning has been pretty much figured out. It's a legally recognized union between two people. That's literally all marriage is as far as government and secular marriage are concerned. Anything else is people assigning extra meaning (including religious).

And marriage to me has never been connected with anything other than romantic/emotional (as an extra to the above). The only difference between secular marriage and religious marriage is one has a religious ceremony and a religious meaning attached. All these extra meanings are entirely personal and should stay that way.

There's no requirement that anyone fulfil your personal definition of marriage for it to be considered a marriage. And if two people want to get married just for the tax benefits, more power to them.
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  #5407  
Old 01-09-2015, 12:50 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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The secular meaning has been pretty much figured out. It's a legally recognized union between two people. That's literally all marriage is as far as government and secular marriage are concerned. Anything else is people assigning extra meaning (including religious).

And marriage to me has never been connected with anything other than romantic/emotional (as an extra to the above). The only difference between secular marriage and religious marriage is one has a religious ceremony and a religious meaning attached. All these extra meanings are entirely personal and should stay that way.

There's no requirement that anyone fulfil your personal definition of marriage for it to be considered a marriage. And if two people want to get married just for the tax benefits, more power to them.
That's why secular and religious marriage should be separated. Secular marriage should be the only legal marriage, with the religious one being ceremonial. Also, no priest or similar should be forced to perform a religious marriage for someone he doesn't approve of/considers contradictory.
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  #5408  
Old 01-09-2015, 12:55 PM
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That's why secular and religious marriage should be separated. Secular marriage should be the only legal marriage, with the religious one being ceremonial. Also, no priest or similar should be forced to perform a religious marriage for someone he doesn't approve of/considers contradictory.
I agree with this. I think, largely for convenience sake, that a religious and legal ceremony can still happen at the same time (as opposed to needing to go more than once), but that the religious ceremony can only be performed if the religious practitioner want to.

A religion is not required to see people are married as far as their religious belief goes either. Like Catholicism doesn't consider you divorced if you don't get your marriage annulled despite the fact that you may legally be.
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  #5409  
Old 01-09-2015, 02:21 PM
Korath Korath is offline

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Yeah heretic is pretty much "not believing in the right stuff" isnt it?
Yes, but depending of one conception of heretic, it can be distinct from traitor (which is mainly true in a secularized country).

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Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
That's why secular and religious marriage should be separated. Secular marriage should be the only legal marriage, with the religious one being ceremonial. Also, no priest or similar should be forced to perform a religious marriage for someone he doesn't approve of/considers contradictory.
That's how it works in France : if you want to be married, you go to the mayor of your town and he marry you (more usually, it is an Officier d'Etat Civil who does that, since he was granted powers from the mayor to do so). You must go first to the representative of the Republic before any religious marriage.

And then, once you're legally married you can be religiously married.
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  #5410  
Old 01-09-2015, 02:24 PM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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That's why secular and religious marriage should be separated. Secular marriage should be the only legal marriage, with the religious one being ceremonial. Also, no priest or similar should be forced to perform a religious marriage for someone he doesn't approve of/considers contradictory.
And who exactly is trying to do this again?
More progressive governments are legalizing the LEGAL marriage, not forcing religious institutions to perform same-sex marriages, for example.
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  #5411  
Old 01-09-2015, 02:57 PM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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It's like people shutting down public schools/pools to everyone, rather than allow black people to attend them.

They have a job to do, which includes performing marriage ceremonies. If they refuse to do the job, then they shouldn't have it, even if they're Christian.
Well, under the former, everyone suffers.

With the latter: Exactly...? So they (the people about to be forced into a position they don't want to be in) abnegated their responsibility to be in their position, in order to avoid that situation?

Unless they were the only one around who could do it, I don't see why that's anything more than potential cause for heckling (i.e. "you quit your job so you didn't have to serve blacks? You're racist!")

(As a side note, while I appreciate the existence of some parallels between the gay rights movement & the civil rights movement, I'm not really comfortable with parallelizing (sp? lol) the two of them)

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If we want the government out of our bedrooms, then they shouldn't have any role in or recognition of marriage.
...
There are no debates about who the government should allow to be baptized. The government does not deal with that. And yet, we still have the concept of citizenship.
Wait, are you against the idea of citizenship? Or merely pointing out how it came from the idea of baptism ("citizenship in a church", of sorts) & has become it's own, completely-secular, idea?

Because to the former: it only makes sense. Every organization needs a way to differentiate between those who are "in" and those who are "out".

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Can some of you lead any discussion on any remotely edgy subject at all without drawing up "communism" and "nazis"? It would be refreshingly interesting.
Nope. : P

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... There is no universal understanding throughout time.
...
I disagree. I believe in (the ideal of/a) marriage being instituted not only from the inception of the Earth (evident in our understanding of the Genesis account of God's dealings & intentions with Adam & Eve), but arguably a primal component of the Way Things Work in the Universe at large.

Everything else (including many modern religions misunderstanding, abuse, under-utilization, and mistreatment of marriage) stems from that. Man naturally messes up that which God has ordained, set apart, or shows through His example.

~~~

That all being said, this is an issue of severe import & confusion for myself personally. I'm a strong believer in the importance of marriage (not only to persons individually, but for society as a whole; the family, I believe, is the foundation of society), and a personal partaker of such (married ~2.75yrs, have a ~3mth-old son)... But I don't really care about whether gay people want to visit each other in the hospital or inherit stuff, and certainly don't like them being punished. On the other, other hand, I trust in the word of God that gay marriage is not the way things are supposed to be.

I suppose I will continue to soul-search, but my views generally align somewhere near Brandon Sanderson's thought-provoking post (also see a good discussion of the aforementioned).

Bleh.
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  #5412  
Old 01-11-2015, 01:15 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Well, under the former, everyone suffers.

With the latter: Exactly...? So they (the people about to be forced into a position they don't want to be in) abnegated their responsibility to be in their position, in order to avoid that situation?

Unless they were the only one around who could do it, I don't see why that's anything more than potential cause for heckling (i.e. "you quit your job so you didn't have to serve blacks? You're racist!")

(As a side note, while I appreciate the existence of some parallels between the gay rights movement & the civil rights movement, I'm not really comfortable with parallelizing (sp? lol) the two of them)
I think a more proper term is "making parallels" or "comparing" the two of them, but I'm not exactly the best at English.

Either way, it's preferable for people to quit for their conscience, rather than not do their job and claim moral/religious reasons to do.

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Do you think we discriminate against drug users by drug testing employees for private businesses?
Depends on the job and how things are done.

Most of the time, discrimination against drug users hits minorities hardest, since white people in the US often targeted drugs used mostly by non-whites for illegality. Thus, stuff like weed and cocaine and crack and whatnot became illegal, while alcohol and cigarettes either weren't banned at all, or were banned for a while until white people got fed up with it.

It's also why marijuana use is being more accepted, because more white people are using it.

In addition, drug testing employees encourages users to use drugs that come out of the system relatively quickly, which tend to be the harder, more dangerous drugs. Something like marijuana isn't very dangerous as a whole, but it lingers in the system for more than a weekend.

Beyond that, the war of drugs was created by Nixon to focus on persecuting blacks and hippies, without just going out and saying "we're gonna be racist and we're gonna persecute people who don't agree with us". Later presidents took the concept and ran with it, making it far worse than it originally was.

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If we want the government out of our bedrooms, then they shouldn't have any role in or recognition of marriage.
Unfortunately, you conservative Christians would howl and whine about, say, changing civil "marriage" into "civil unions" for everyone, and talk about how the moral fiber of American is being lost, and blah blah blah.

Much like how there are people opposed to discontinuing the penny and paper dollar, and bringing in dollar coins. It's how you're used to, and as conservatives you're loath to change anything considered "traditional".

After all, the best you people have come up with is "civil unions for gay people, civil marriage for straight people", rather than "civil unions for all; marriage can just refer to the religious ceremony".
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.

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  #5413  
Old 01-11-2015, 01:51 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Liberal Christians aren't exactly thrilled by gay marriage either so there's no need for that passive aggressive sweep you did on Baron.
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Old 01-11-2015, 02:17 PM
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Liberal Christians aren't exactly thrilled by gay marriage either so there's no need for that passive aggressive sweep you did on Baron.
Liberal Christians are mostly irrelevant. Religious conservatives always outnumber religious liberals and are a far more united voting bloc (and scourge upon the nation that like to force their lifestyles onto everyone else).

And hey, don't misconstrue me! That was just plain aggressive!
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #5415  
Old 01-11-2015, 02:18 PM
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Liberal Christians aren't exactly thrilled by gay marriage either so there's no need for that passive aggressive sweep you did on Baron.
All the Christians I know think gay marriage is something that should go without saying.
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Old 01-11-2015, 02:21 PM
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Liberal Christians are mostly irrelevant. Religious conservatives always outnumber religious liberals and are a far more united voting bloc (and scourge upon the nation that like to force their lifestyles onto everyone else).

And hey, don't misconstrue me! That was just plain aggressive!
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Old 01-11-2015, 02:23 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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This is why you get spanked.
Who knows, he might be into that.
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  #5418  
Old 01-11-2015, 02:39 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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All the Christians I know think gay marriage is something that should go without saying.
I don't think most people really care whether or not gay people can get married or not. It is not something that determines their vote.
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Old 01-11-2015, 02:44 PM
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I don't think most people really care whether or not gay people can get married or not. It is not something that determines their vote.
That doesn't stop some people from campaigning against the rights of gay people to marry.

I've actually seen a Christian friend go all money-lenders on a person handing out homophobic pamphlets at her church.
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Old 01-11-2015, 02:46 PM
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I don't think most people really care whether or not gay people can get married or not. It is not something that determines their vote.
You'd be surprised how invested people are in the culture wars.
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Old 01-11-2015, 06:27 PM
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That doesn't stop some people from campaigning against the rights of gay people to marry.

I've actually seen a Christian friend go all money-lenders on a person handing out homophobic pamphlets at her church.
Ooh, was there a whip involved?
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Old 01-11-2015, 06:40 PM
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Ooh, was there a whip involved?
You would like that.
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Old 01-11-2015, 07:51 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Ooh, was there a whip involved?
What? No!
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Old 01-12-2015, 03:24 PM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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Unfortunately, you conservative Christians would howl and whine about, say, changing civil "marriage" into "civil unions" for everyone, and talk about how the moral fiber of American is being lost, and blah blah blah.
Thank you, for that sweeping generalization of much of my friends and family. : /

Thing is, even among "conservative Christians" opinions vary. We are people, too. It's true, I'd still say the "moral fiber of of American is being lost & blah blah" (probably with the 'blahs' included )... But not necessarily any more than I already do. Every sin which man turns to has a deleterious effect on the whole, not just homosexuality (and it can only get worse as we move from 'acceptance' to 'approval' to 'admiration', to borrow a phrase). But again, as I have said, the issue is not so much with the legal rights (at least, not insofar as I believe & can tell), as it is the socioethical considerations.

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Originally Posted by Millenia
Much like how there are people opposed to discontinuing the penny and paper dollar, and bringing in dollar coins. It's how you're used to, and as conservatives you're loath to change anything considered "traditional".
Enjoying the strawman?

Yeah, I'll jump right on this bandwagon; I'm the unfortunate type to pine for 'the olden days' (at the ripe old age of my mid-twenties ), collect old egg cartons & paper towel tubes, and bemoan the changes of life (though I suppose some of that might be more attributed to "hoarding" rather than "conservative love of traditionalism" : )...). But still, to so broadly sweep... *sigh*

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After all, the best you people have come up with is "civil unions for gay people, civil marriage for straight people", rather than "civil unions for all; marriage can just refer to the religious ceremony".
Laughable. I'm sure someone somewhere "us people" (there it is again...) have thought about a 'separation of church & state' in the manner you described. In a way, that's basically how it already is (I can be "married" by some church (legitimate or not), but I'm not "married" in terms of government recognition or social benefits until I pony up the funds to the judge & sign the paperwork & all that). It's also basically how things are run/considered in my particular church (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints); there are plenty of "civil marriages", or 'temporal' marriages, performed by 'earthly authorities', but only one source & path for an 'eternal' marriage (perhaps a "church marriage". if you will), performed by God-ordained authorities. This is known as a "sealing", or "to be sealed".

Anyway, just because I didn't post about it or acknowledge it, doesn't mean none of "us" have come up with it our espoused it. I'm sure there are many who have/do/done/did/da-da-da, dada,dee-dah.

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I don't think most people really care whether or not gay people can get married or not. It is not something that determines their vote.
Eh... Ah dannae about that. I've met some people who are pretty fervent in expressing their opinions... I'm not sure I would consider myself being such a person, but all other things being equal, yes, it would make a difference to me (/hypothetical).

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I've actually seen a Christian friend go all money-lenders on a person handing out homophobic pamphlets at her church.
+5 for Biblical reference. : )

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Isn't a heretic just a religious traitor?
Or... Is a 'traitor' simply a secular heretic??

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I like this guy.
If you're interested in creating custom factions & heroes in Warcraft 3, I mod that over at The Hive Workshop (Also at Wc3C.net).

My primary Project Thread:
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...ehere_.303712/
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Old 01-12-2015, 03:59 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Originally Posted by Triumvirate View Post
Thank you, for that sweeping generalization of much of my friends and family. : /

Thing is, even among "conservative Christians" opinions vary. We are people, too. It's true, I'd still say the "moral fiber of of American is being lost & blah blah" (probably with the 'blahs' included )... But not necessarily any more than I already do. Every sin which man turns to has a deleterious effect on the whole, not just homosexuality (and it can only get worse as we move from 'acceptance' to 'approval' to 'admiration', to borrow a phrase). But again, as I have said, the issue is not so much with the legal rights (at least, not insofar as I believe & can tell), as it is the socioethical considerations.
So, all your worries about equality for gay people are about sociology and not religion? Do tell.
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