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  #11451  
Old 01-14-2015, 10:46 AM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
And yet again - what do the social issues and problems in muslim society (in several countries mind you, not in Islam as a whole), have to do with supporting terrorism?

You're saying here that "well, ofc they're not all running around with AK-47 and blowing themselves up, but you know it's Islam, and they have their issues, I mean come on compare x to y here with us, and you know...it's not thaaaat far-fetched anymore."
I'm not actually talking about terrorism, at least not of the non-state variety. My concerns are more general.
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  #11452  
Old 01-14-2015, 10:55 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
I'm not actually talking about terrorism, at least not of the non-state variety. My concerns are more general.
And concerns with Islam in general are fine, or more accurately, with several countries and their interpretation of it. Noone (least of all me) is defending those place for their barbarism.

What I am reacting to is people like Gani and his heroes, like that nutjob Shapiro, purposefully misconstruing facts and misrepresenting circumstances to do exactly that - connect all muslims and all Islam-related issues to terrorism and violent extremism.
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  #11453  
Old 01-14-2015, 11:13 AM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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Miffy and Ganishka were made for each other. Look at how willing they are to talk tone another!
It's fun watching them play, until it's not. They need their own playground for this.
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  #11454  
Old 01-14-2015, 01:02 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
When performing a public act such as that book-burning incident, it is prudent to take into consideration the effect it will have not just on your own mindset and sensitivity. And in this case particular, the intended effect is pretty obvious, because any intelligent person will now what this does - offend and provoke those on the other side of the same infantile mindset.

Defend the right to do stupid things, sure. Defend stupid things based on the right to do them? No. That way lies madness.
If they decide to attack and try to kill people because their wittle feewings got hurt, they deserve to get killed or imprisoned for their stupidity. End of story. It is not on the shoulders of someone who causes the "offense" to be responsible for what others react with, as being offended is subjective and depends on the individual. When an ideology consistantly responds to jokes or criticism with violence and killing, than it is the ideology at fault, not the "offenders".

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And yet again - what do the social issues and problems in muslim society (in several countries mind you, not in Islam as a whole), have to do with supporting terrorism?
The fact that it is all the same problems in almost all of the Muslim states, shows that it is a problem with Islam itself, as Islam is the only connecting factor between all of these disparate cultures and regions. If the causes of terrorism were "oppression" and "poverty", why isn't poverty-stricken India, which has a billion plus people living in it, infested with thousands of Hindu terrorist organizations? What about South America or non-Uighur China?
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  #11455  
Old 01-14-2015, 02:16 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
If they decide to attack and try to kill people because their wittle feewings got hurt, they deserve to get killed or imprisoned for their stupidity. End of story. It is not on the shoulders of someone who causes the "offense" to be responsible for what others react with, as being offended is subjective and depends on the individual. When an ideology consistantly responds to jokes or criticism with violence and killing, than it is the ideology at fault, not the "offenders".



The fact that it is all the same problems in almost all of the Muslim states, shows that it is a problem with Islam itself, as Islam is the only connecting factor between all of these disparate cultures and regions. If the causes of terrorism were "oppression" and "poverty", why isn't poverty-stricken India, which has a billion plus people living in it, infested with thousands of Hindu terrorist organizations? What about South America or non-Uighur China?
There have been Hindu terrorist groups in the past: groups like the Baluchistan liberation front are motivated by secular reasons. Christian groups in Africa have been active as well. Hell many of the largest groups in the plo were left wing communist. Islamic terror groups are a new phenomenon (by which I mean they started to only gain ground after the failure of the six day war and the Iranian uprising)
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Old 01-14-2015, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
There have been Hindu terrorist groups in the past: groups like the Baluchistan liberation front are motivated by secular reasons. Christian groups in Africa have been active as well. Hell many of the largest groups in the plo were left wing communist. Islamic terror groups are a new phenomenon (by which I mean they started to only gain ground after the failure of the six day war and the Iranian uprising)
There was a Hindu terrorist group as recent as 2008. As you said, there are Christian ones active now in Africa.
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  #11457  
Old 01-14-2015, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Ol'Yoggy View Post
There have been Hindu terrorist groups in the past: groups like the Baluchistan liberation front are motivated by secular reasons. Christian groups in Africa have been active as well. Hell many of the largest groups in the plo were left wing communist. Islamic terror groups are a new phenomenon (by which I mean they started to only gain ground after the failure of the six day war and the Iranian uprising)
I think Ganishka needs to look closely at the borders of India. That country is wracked by caste and religious problems. I mean it's India where you have this.

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  #11458  
Old 01-14-2015, 03:00 PM
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Couldn't you say the Irish Troubles also featured some degree of Christian terrorism?
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  #11459  
Old 01-14-2015, 03:03 PM
Insipid_Lobster Insipid_Lobster is offline

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Couldn't you say the Irish Troubles also featured some degree of Christian terrorism?
Both protestant and catholic, yes.
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  #11460  
Old 01-14-2015, 03:06 PM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Couldn't you say the Irish Troubles also featured some degree of Christian terrorism?
No.

Religion really wasn't the issue, despite what the Media might try and make out.

That conflict was - and still is - about Irish Republicanism V British Unionism/Loyalism. The things carried out weren't in aim of Religion, but Politics.
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  #11461  
Old 01-14-2015, 03:09 PM
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No.

Religion really wasn't the issue, despite what the Media might try and make out.

That conflict was - and still is - about Irish Republicanism V British Unionism/Loyalism.
I'd definitely say it wasn't the entirety of the issue. Protestantism and Catholicism became part of important ethnic identifiers that were part of a nationalistic issue (religion being a portion of national identity). You can see very similar issues in Africa, ironically, where the main thrust of the issue is still about statehood but religious violence is a massive component.

I mean it's not as if people were setting up car bombs because of a fundamental disagreement on the nature of selling indulgences, however, you can't really say that 9/11 happened because Al Qaeda disagreed with America regarding the topic of Jesus' divinity, either. Religion is just something for people to identify with and flock to.
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  #11462  
Old 01-14-2015, 03:15 PM
Insipid_Lobster Insipid_Lobster is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
I'd definitely say it wasn't the entirety of the issue. Protestantism and Catholicism became part of important ethnic identifiers that were part of a nationalistic issue (religion being a portion of national identity).
You pretty much worded it much better than I could have.
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  #11463  
Old 01-14-2015, 03:16 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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Damn uppity protestants.
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  #11464  
Old 01-14-2015, 03:17 PM
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Damn uppity protestants.
Fuckin' Lutherans with their god damn tuna hot dish.
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  #11465  
Old 01-14-2015, 03:51 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Damn uppity protestants.
You don't like yankees or Protestants?
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  #11466  
Old 01-14-2015, 04:36 PM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
If they decide to attack and try to kill people because their wittle feewings got hurt, they deserve to get killed or imprisoned for their stupidity. End of story. It is not on the shoulders of someone who causes the "offense" to be responsible for what others react with, as being offended is subjective and depends on the individual. When an ideology consistantly responds to jokes or criticism with violence and killing, than it is the ideology at fault, not the "offenders".
Why are constantly trying to shift the goal posts? Point out to me where I'm trying to defend the attackers or BLAME the victims.

I'm telling you that your kind of attitude and that of many commenters is facile and bigoted. I'm saying that while the attacks are barbaric, horrifying and need to be condemned, the provocation that initiated them is not suddenly ok in hindsight due to martyrs. They can go on doing whatever they did, but they got a lot of criticism in the past from all kinds of political factions for their lack of taste and provoking issues, and they should continue to do so in my opinion.

What's happening now is due to people being murdered for these things, rightwing crackpots are jumping on it and using it as justification to slander and further insult and provoke the muslim community, in the name of upholding free speech. You're just throwing oil onto the fire. Provocation just for the sake of proving that you can do it is the act of an imbecile.

Ironically, you're playing right into the hands of extremists with this behaviour. Further provocations provide further fodder for recruitment.
Mind you I'm not saying the West should engage in any kind of catering to terrorist groups or attempt to negotiate with factions such as ISIS - but we cannot adopt a basically hostile and biased stance against any muslim country based on this, it's exactly what fundamentalists on both sides want, further divide.



Quote:
The fact that it is all the same problems in almost all of the Muslim states, shows that it is a problem with Islam itself, as Islam is the only connecting factor between all of these disparate cultures and regions. If the causes of terrorism were "oppression" and "poverty", why isn't poverty-stricken India, which has a billion plus people living in it, infested with thousands of Hindu terrorist organizations? What about South America or non-Uighur China?
Incidentally, all of those areas have their issues (dunno why you would exclude Uighur China - because it doesn't fit your narrative?).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhinav_Bharat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_Terrorism

That's just for Hinduist ultra-right wing and conservative terrorist organizations.

Are you seriously claiming South America doesn't have issues with extremism? Whoa..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_..._Organizations

There you go, 3 official threats even listed (with many more existing that aren't listed ehre because they don't endanger US interests).

So you see, economically destitute regions seem to share a certain penchant for extremism and violence.
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  #11467  
Old 01-14-2015, 06:17 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
Why are constantly trying to shift the goal posts? Point out to me where I'm trying to defend the attackers or BLAME the victims.
Because you DO blame the victims by saying that they brought it on themselves for hurting the feelings of a bunch of oversensitive savages.

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I'm telling you that your kind of attitude and that of many commenters is facile and bigoted.
Yeah, so? The poor, innocent, Muslim community certainly isn't doing anything to curb the violence by trying to rewrite the Quran or go on massive anti-terror marches?

Here is what a truly courageous Muslim looks and sounds like:



Quote:
I'm saying that while the attacks are barbaric, horrifying and need to be condemned, the provocation that initiated them is not suddenly ok in hindsight due to martyrs.
Than why, if you are so against the attacks, do you constantly crow on about how free speech is to blame? "The provocations" of Charlie Hebdo may be "offensive", but they are and always should be considered "ok". Don't like? Don't read it or make a competing satirical magazine to mock them.

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They can go on doing whatever they did, but they got a lot of criticism in the past from all kinds of political factions for their lack of taste and provoking issues, and they should continue to do so in my opinion.
Boo hoo.

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What's happening now is due to people being murdered for these things, rightwing crackpots are jumping on it and using it as justification to slander and further insult and provoke the muslim community, in the name of upholding free speech.
Awww, the poor babies! It is almost like you think they have no self control, or can't be adults that can be insulted just like everyone else. Why do you have to be so bigoted to say that Muslims can't take criticism or make their own rational decisions, and instead need to be coddled and protected like toddlers to avoid them throwing a hissy fit?

"Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me!" should be how we teach people to toughen up and grow a pair or spine. Someone makes fun of you? Tell them to fuck off.

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You're just throwing oil onto the fire. Provocation just for the sake of proving that you can do it is the act of an imbecile.
Tell me, what is more "imbecilic", to you? Making fun of someone or something (which is the whole point of a JOKE, it isn't serious or is just used to deliver biting criticism in the form of satire) for fun, or slaughtering people for religious reasons because some dead pervert told them to fourteen centuries ago?

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Ironically, you're playing right into the hands of extremists with this behaviour. Further provocations provide further fodder for recruitment.
Mind you I'm not saying the West should engage in any kind of catering to terrorist groups or attempt to negotiate with factions such as ISIS - but we cannot adopt a basically hostile and biased stance against any muslim country based on this, it's exactly what fundamentalists on both sides want, further divide.
Here is how you deal with them:



Quote:
Incidentally, all of those areas have their issues (dunno why you would exclude Uighur China - because it doesn't fit your narrative?).
Uh, yeah, mainly because Uighurs are mostly Muslims and are getting the shit kicked out of them for the terrorist attacks they have committed against the Han Chinese.

Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhinav_Bharat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_Terrorism

That's just for Hinduist ultra-right wing and conservative terrorist organizations.

Are you seriously claiming South America doesn't have issues with extremism? Whoa..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_..._Organizations

There you go, 3 official threats even listed (with many more existing that aren't listed ehre because they don't endanger US interests).

So you see, economically destitute regions seem to share a certain penchant for extremism and violence.
Yeah, but those terrorists don't believe they have a mandate, an obligation from GOD, to conquer the world and kill as many kafir and takfir as they can doing so. All of those groups you just mentioned are small, internal problems of the societies they are in. It isn't like Hindu or Latino communities all over the planet have ties to them or support their ideologies in churches and shrines. There is no "Hindu Brotherhood" aiming to destroy all non-Hindu nations, same for South American terrorists. Also, big point right here, is that you just disproved your own post because those Hindu terrorist groups are NATIONALISTS! They are the Hindu IRA! They aren't (outside of the violence, obviously) anything like Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, ISIS, the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestinian Liberation Front, or some such organizations. If you can't tell the difference between NATIONALISTS and MURDEROUS IMPERIALIST THEOCRATS, than why even try conversing with you?
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  #11468  
Old 01-14-2015, 06:38 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
When performing a public act such as that book-burning incident, it is prudent to take into consideration the effect it will have not just on your own mindset and sensitivity. And in this case particular, the intended effect is pretty obvious, because any intelligent person will now what this does - offend and provoke those on the other side of the same infantile mindset.

Defend the right to do stupid things, sure. Defend stupid things based on the right to do them? No. That way lies madness.
Whether you think it's stupid or not, they still have the right to do it. You can't pick and choose on something like this just because it might offend someone. If you do, you lose the right sooner than later because you're constantly restricting it because it will offend someone somewhere.
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  #11469  
Old 01-14-2015, 06:44 PM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Because you DO blame the victims by saying that they brought it on themselves for hurting the feelings of a bunch of oversensitive savages.
Please, quote me where I said that.

And learn to discern the meaning of what I say - I said that the fact that they were killed by maniacs does not make their provocation suddenly right or just in hindsight. Not that they are to blame for being killed or that the attackers were right in anything they did. And neither does it legitimize sudden outbursts of slander against the muslim community.


Quote:
Yeah, so? The poor, innocent, Muslim community certainly isn't doing anything to curb the violence by trying to rewrite the Quran or go on massive anti-terror marches?

Here is what a truly courageous Muslim looks and sounds like:
The very guy you're linking is underscoring how the peaceful muslim community is disgusted by these acts and tells extremists to fuck off, coming after your very sentence that the muslim community "certainly isn't doing anything to curb the violence". Let's not speak of the many muslims who participated in marches to honour the victims of the Hebdo attacks.


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Than why, if you are so against the attacks, do you constantly crow on about how free speech is to blame? "The provocations" of Charlie Hebdo may be "offensive", but they are and always should be considered "ok". Don't like? Don't read it or make a competing satirical magazine to mock them.
And where did i say "free speech is to blame"? I repeat again: you have the right to say anything you want, yet having the right does not make slandering and bigotry ok. This was directed more at the wave of hate directed at muslims in general now and the very broad generalizations and bigotry coming from you in particular, which you now feel is somehow justified because people who were provocative to muslims were killed, so that now makes it somehow doubly necessary to be even more provocative. How about we react appropriately, as France impressively has by showing unity and a peaceful, tolerant community outraged by the hate, instead of accusing a quarter of the world's population to be passively or actively in support of such madness.



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Awww, the poor babies! It is almost like you think they have no self control, or can't be adults that can be insulted just like everyone else. Why do you have to be so bigoted to say that Muslims can't take criticism or make their own rational decisions, and instead need to be coddled and protected like toddlers to avoid them throwing a hissy fit?

"Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me!" should be how we teach people to toughen up and grow a pair or spine. Someone makes fun of you? Tell them to fuck off.
Insulting and slandering an entire faith like you do is no less infantile and counterproductive than extremists shouting their hate paroles.

It's not the muslimic reaction or their sensitivity i'm worried about btw. It's the ignorance, hate and ressentiments this kind of demagoguery spreads in OUR society against a culture that is increasingly being demonized and misunderstood for the acts of minorities.

If you think I'm arguing for the honour of extremist muslims and how it's wrong to insult them or the faith, you're on the entirely wrong track.

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Tell me, what is more "imbecilic", to you? Making fun of someone or something (which is the whole point of a JOKE, it isn't serious or is just used to deliver biting criticism in the form of satire) for fun, or slaughtering people for religious reasons because some dead pervert told them to fourteen centuries ago?
Can you do anything but strawman? As illustrated above, my point was never about weighing criticism against murder. It's about how bigotry and hate on both sides lead only to more suffering and ignorance. And you are promoting bigotry and ignorance by generalizing the way you do.

Quote:
Here is how you deal with them:


There, you made my point for me.

An extremist madman shouting on TV for the violent eradication of the culture opposing his. "You leave smoking ruins and crying widows".

This side is no less fundamentalist and hate-driven than the other, and incidentally the American right especially also feels that "god is on their side".

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Uh, yeah, mainly because Uighurs are mostly Muslims and are getting the shit kicked out of them for the terrorist attacks they have committed against the Han Chinese.
If anything, you would have to have mentioned it to support your claim that terrorism is always related to Islam in some way. Which, of course, is ridiculous.

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Yeah, but those terrorists don't believe they have a mandate, an obligation from GOD, to conquer the world and kill as many kafir and takfir as they can doing so. All of those groups you just mentioned are small, internal problems of the societies they are in. It isn't like Hindu or Latino communities all over the planet have ties to them or support their ideologies in churches and shrines. There is no "Hindu Brotherhood" aiming to destroy all non-Hindu nations, same for South American terrorists.
That's backpedaling. The point you were making is that terrorism and extremist violence is tied to Islam everywhere, and not economic disparity. Which is obviously not the case, and I shouldn't even have to point out. The fact that muslim terrorist organizations as of late are a more widespread problem (might have something to do with all those wars being participated in internationally in that area) does not negate the fact that violence and extremism are common side effects of the economic and material poverty in these areas (most of the world), similar to crime and drug abuse.

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Whether you think it's stupid or not, they still have the right to do it. You can't pick and choose on something like this just because it might offend someone. If you do, you lose the right sooner than later because you're constantly restricting it because it will offend someone somewhere.
Nobody's trying to take away their right to say or do anything of the sort, least of all me, you're just trying to pin that on me for some reason.

My point, as made above, is that their provocation was critisized previously by many in the West and should still be. Critisizing is not censoring or taking away their right to say it, you know, it's simply calling a stupid and provocative act stupid and provocative.

And people getting killed over it doesn't make it any less stupid and provocative.

Nor does it make it ok to try and "up the anté" to pile on more insults and provocations. Nobody's going to stop you (generic you) from saying whatever you want about Islam. But you're also going to have to deal with being called an offensive prick if you generalize and slander in the name of "upholding free speech". It goes both ways.
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Old 01-14-2015, 07:02 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
Because you DO blame the victims by saying that they brought it on themselves for hurting the feelings of a bunch of oversensitive savages.



Yeah, so? The poor, innocent, Muslim community certainly isn't doing anything to curb the violence by trying to rewrite the Quran or go on massive anti-terror marches?

Here is what a truly courageous Muslim looks and sounds like:





Than why, if you are so against the attacks, do you constantly crow on about how free speech is to blame? "The provocations" of Charlie Hebdo may be "offensive", but they are and always should be considered "ok". Don't like? Don't read it or make a competing satirical magazine to mock them.


Boo hoo.



Awww, the poor babies! It is almost like you think they have no self control, or can't be adults that can be insulted just like everyone else. Why do you have to be so bigoted to say that Muslims can't take criticism or make their own rational decisions, and instead need to be coddled and protected like toddlers to avoid them throwing a hissy fit?

"Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me!" should be how we teach people to toughen up and grow a pair or spine. Someone makes fun of you? Tell them to fuck off.



Tell me, what is more "imbecilic", to you? Making fun of someone or something (which is the whole point of a JOKE, it isn't serious or is just used to deliver biting criticism in the form of satire) for fun, or slaughtering people for religious reasons because some dead pervert told them to fourteen centuries ago?



Here is how you deal with them:





Uh, yeah, mainly because Uighurs are mostly Muslims and are getting the shit kicked out of them for the terrorist attacks they have committed against the Han Chinese.



Yeah, but those terrorists don't believe they have a mandate, an obligation from GOD, to conquer the world and kill as many kafir and takfir as they can doing so. All of those groups you just mentioned are small, internal problems of the societies they are in. It isn't like Hindu or Latino communities all over the planet have ties to them or support their ideologies in churches and shrines. There is no "Hindu Brotherhood" aiming to destroy all non-Hindu nations, same for South American terrorists. Also, big point right here, is that you just disproved your own post because those Hindu terrorist groups are NATIONALISTS! They are the Hindu IRA! They aren't (outside of the violence, obviously) anything like Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, ISIS, the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestinian Liberation Front, or some such organizations. If you can't tell the difference between NATIONALISTS and MURDEROUS IMPERIALIST THEOCRATS, than why even try conversing with you?
Uh Joseph Kony's group. The PLO were nationalist. Hamas are the guys who brought religion to the mix. I mean fuck, look at the fbi stats between 1980 and 2005; 42% were latino and 7% were jewish. By contrast 6% were muslim. And there's the massacres going on in central america where christian militias are slaughtering muslim civilians en masse. Or the fact that the buddhists in myanamar are the ones who provoked the violence.
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Old 01-14-2015, 07:11 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Please, quote me where I said that.

And learn to discern the meaning of what I say - I said that the fact that they were killed by maniacs does not make their provocation suddenly right or just in hindsight. Not that they are to blame for being killed or that the attackers were right in anything they did. And neither does it legitimize sudden outbursts of slander against the muslim community.
Wrong. It completely legitimizes it. The time you should mock people the MOST is when they are making threats of violence, not shying away from it like a pussy.

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The very guy you're linking is underscoring how the peaceful muslim community is disgusted by these acts and tells extremists to fuck off, coming after your very sentence that the muslim community "certainly isn't doing anything to curb the violence". Let's not speak of the many muslims who participated in marches to honour the victims of the Hebdo attacks.
Yeah, and he is only one guy. When anti-jihadist rallies were tried to be held by Muslim groups in America, no one showed up.


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And where did i say "free speech is to blame"? I repeat again: you have the right to say anything you want, yet having the right does not make slandering and bigotry ok. This was directed more at the wave of hate directed at muslims in general now and the very broad generalizations and bigotry coming from you in particular, which you now feel is somehow justified because people who were provocative to muslims were killed, so that now makes it somehow doubly necessary to be even more provocative. How about we react appropriately, as France impressively has by showing unity and a peaceful, tolerant community outraged by the hate, instead of accusing a quarter of the world's population to be passively or actively in support of such madness.
Yes, because the Muslims who are made fun of are the REAL victims, not the people that just murdered by their co-coreligionists.

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Insulting and slandering an entire faith like you do is no less infantile and counterproductive than extremists shouting their hate paroles.

It's not the muslimic reaction or their sensitivity i'm worried about btw. It's the ignorance, hate and ressentiments this kind of demagoguery spreads in OUR society against a culture that is increasingly being demonized and misunderstood for the acts of minorities.
Yeah, when groups like CAIR, ISNA, MSA, and others constantly use "peaceful" means to shut down all criticism of Islam in order to push their Sharia-based agenda, they totally don't deserve to be "demonized" for it!

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If you think I'm arguing for the honour of extremist muslims and how it's wrong to insult them or the faith, you're on the entirely wrong track.
Than stop doing it, you lunatic.

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Can you do anything but strawman? As illustrated above, my point was never about weighing criticism against murder. It's about how bigotry and hate on both sides lead only to more suffering and ignorance. And you are promoting bigotry and ignorance by generalizing the way you do.
Blah, blah, blah. Go smoke your pot Russel.



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There, you made my point for me.

An extremist madman shouting on TV for the violent eradication of the culture opposing his. "You leave smoking ruins and crying widows".

This side is no less fundamentalist and hate-driven than the other, and incidentally the American right especially also feels that "god is on their side".
Yes, we totally shouldn't have fought the Japanese and killed them, instead, we should have showed them tolerance! How silly of us evil conservatives!

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If anything, you would have to have mentioned it to support your claim that terrorism is always related to Islam in some way. Which, of course, is ridiculous.
Just because you say it is ridiculous, doesn't mean it is.

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That's backpedaling. The point you were making is that terrorism and extremist violence is tied to Islam everywhere, and not economic disparity. Which is obviously not the case, and I shouldn't even have to point out. The fact that muslim terrorist organizations as of late are a more widespread problem (might have something to do with all those wars being participated in internationally in that area) does not negate the fact that violence and extremism are common side effects of the economic and material poverty in these areas (most of the world), similar to crime and drug abuse.
Fine, I was wrong on that. Except for the fact that Islam teaches that all hypocrites and unbelievers need to be killed simply for existing, unlike every other religion on the planet. All of the other religions have "The Golden Rule", Islam doesn't, and says that Muslims may do as they please to non-Muslims or moderate Muslims.
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  #11472  
Old 01-14-2015, 07:25 PM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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  #11473  
Old 01-14-2015, 07:29 PM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Wrong. It completely legitimizes it. The time you should mock people the MOST is when they are making threats of violence, not shying away from it like a pussy.
In the interest of keeping these exchanges shorter and easier to read, i'll just stick to the actual points you make and not adress the rest anymore.

So in your opinion, not agreeing with slandering and provoking muslims simply for the heck of it is saying that they basically brought it on themselves or even excusing the attackers. It seems like you barely read anything I wrote, tbh.



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Yeah, and he is only one guy. When anti-jihadist rallies were tried to be held by Muslim groups in America, no one showed up.
I can't really comment on that since I'm not informed, but I know that in Europe there are often rallies by muslim communities to protest extremist acts (as well as demonstrations for Palestine etc ofc).





Quote:
Yeah, when groups like CAIR, ISNA, MSA, and others constantly use "peaceful" means to shut down all criticism of Islam in order to push their Sharia-based agenda, they totally don't deserve to be "demonized" for it!
I'm talking about your demonization of the entire muslim community, not the specific organizations you refer to.
You keep going off on tangents about all muslims and muslim countries, and how all terrorism is related to Islam etc...and when you get called out on it, you fall back to "oh, you I can't make fun of the terrorists now, huh".


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Yes, we totally shouldn't have fought the Japanese and killed them, instead, we should have showed them tolerance! How silly of us evil conservatives!
Utterly absurd comparison that has pretty much nothing to do with this. And I'm not asking you to show tolerance to muslim extremists, but to the peaceful muslim majority that has nothing to do with that.



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Fine, I was wrong on that. Except for the fact that Islam teaches that all hypocrites and unbelievers need to be killed simply for existing, unlike every other religion on the planet. All of the other religions have "The Golden Rule", Islam doesn't, and says that Muslims may do as they please to non-Muslims or moderate Muslims.
Weird how we don't have 1.5 billion murdering fanatics killing all non-muslims around them then, isn't it.

Just like we don't have non-orthodox Christian women covering their heads.
""But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head..." 1 Corinthians 11:5"

Or how we don't have Christian women have their hands cut off for grabbing another man's junk that was debating their husband (seriously):
""When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)"

Just more examples of absurd passages in scripture that aren't adhered to.
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Old 01-14-2015, 07:47 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Nobody's trying to take away their right to say or do anything of the sort, least of all me, you're just trying to pin that on me for some reason.

My point, as made above, is that their provocation was critisized previously by many in the West and should still be. Critisizing is not censoring or taking away their right to say it, you know, it's simply calling a stupid and provocative act stupid and provocative.

And people getting killed over it doesn't make it any less stupid and provocative.

Nor does it make it ok to try and "up the anté" to pile on more insults and provocations. Nobody's going to stop you (generic you) from saying whatever you want about Islam. But you're also going to have to deal with being called an offensive prick if you generalize and slander in the name of "upholding free speech". It goes both ways.
If I said that, I apologize, the thrust of your posts seemed to be that if someone says something someone else finds offensive, such as radical islamists, they shouldn't be allowed to say it because of the reaction it will get. For me though, I don't care who says what, when. As long as its not spilling state/military (and some corporate) secrets that need to be kept hidden for security reasons, people can say whatever they want, no matter how juvenile or insulting someone might think it is. The freedom of speech and expression covers everything. Unfortunately, too many on the US political left want to restrict or censor such speech because it offends others.

At this point, if someone becomes offended at what cartoonists/humorists, to hell with those uptight bastards. Let the offensive humor fly.
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Old 01-14-2015, 07:54 PM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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If I said that, I apologize, the thrust of your posts seemed to be that if someone says something someone else finds offensive, such as radical islamists, they shouldn't be allowed to say it because of the reaction it will get. For me though, I don't care who says what, when. As long as its not spilling state/military (and some corporate) secrets that need to be kept hidden for security reasons, people can say whatever they want, no matter how juvenile or insulting someone might think it is. The freedom of speech and expression covers everything. Unfortunately, too many on the US political left want to restrict or censor such speech because it offends others.

At this point, if someone becomes offended at what cartoonists/humorists, to hell with those uptight bastards. Let the offensive humor fly.
By all means. Just don't start accusing all uptight bastards of supporting murder and violence just because some of them do.

I'd also say it goes both ways, not just from the left. You've got plenty of right-wingers (look at FOX, for example), going apeshit over things like people claiming Jesus wasn't white and nonsense like this, and going on rants about how "you can't say that".
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Last edited by miffy23; 01-14-2015 at 07:56 PM..
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