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  #26  
Old 06-08-2011, 12:19 PM
Stackattack Stackattack is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
I wouldn't say so. I mean, in WCIII the DKs only had one spell that summoned undead and frankly I never used it that much. It's less integral to the class than things like death and decay or deathcoil.
agreed. DKs aren't summoners, or necros. they're a bit of both in WoW, but they're still guys who swing 2handers at their foes. (inb4 frost spec)
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  #27  
Old 06-08-2011, 12:20 PM
Lowtide Lowtide is offline

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Originally Posted by Urth View Post
Air Elemental could be a cooldown as well, but mimicking the effects of the old Windwall as well as Grounding Totem. Air Elemental wouldn't be a DPS increase, but a defensive cooldown to protect against casted magic and ranged attacks. Not sure if this should be a Restoration or Elemental talent, or trained, but that's my thought for Air.
Next expansion, maybe. My idea ... the Fire elemental is currently the dps cd. But it's melee based (it does cast a bit but most of its damage are its obscene melee hits), the Air elemental could do ranged dps. Spam chain lightning while providing the boni of Windfury/Wrath of Air at the same time. Or create a Hurricane like aura, which would be a great boon to Enhancements atrocious AoE damage.
Water elemental as defensive cooldown. Pulsing healing waves and a temporary manapool bonus (similar to Priest hymns).

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Originally Posted by ScytheRexx View Post
The Fel Guard is really the only time the pet itself is worthwhile, otherwise it feels rather forgettable.
Sadly, the Fel Guard is the worst pet unless you have an AoE situation. The Succubus beats his sorry ass easily and is such a powerhouse that she would even beat out the Imp for Destruction, weren't it for the Improved Imp talent. So, I think she's fine, she's a rogueish damage dealer who dies quickly and brings some utility. The Imp already works in tandem with lots of Destruction's talent and has an escape with his Flee and some utility with Singe Magic and Blood Pact (I don't know which other buffing spells you are referring to). And the Fel Hunter as the pet of choice for Affliction is fine in its design as caster killer.
I'd work in most of your ideas with Demonic Empowerment. Like, strengthening the offensive abilites of the Imp, AoE snare for the Succubus, AoE dispell for the Felhunter and so on.
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  #28  
Old 06-08-2011, 12:38 PM
Urth Urth is offline

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I agree, but the Death Knight is also a "master of undead" and closest we may ever get to a full-blown Necromancer. For me, I want the Raise Undead aspect of the Death Knight to be more ... necromantic?

I want them to have to kill something for there to be something to raise as a ghoul. Maybe a special Disease debuff that will create an indefinite pet, to mirror the plagued grain from WoW3. Raise Undead still works the way it does for Frost and Blood, but Unholy's permanent Ghoul and Gargoyle cooldown needs less "presto! pet class" and more death, destruction, and most importantly: necromancy.

And all the spell effects of Death Grip should be replaced with a chain and hook. It's just cleaner, in a bloodier way.
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  #29  
Old 06-08-2011, 12:52 PM
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You do know that throughout all of wrath you DID need a corpse or corpse dust tos ummon your ghoul, but they added a glyph that let you use it without the reagent and EVERY unholy DK glyphed into that. And honestly, after they removed soulstones from warlock pets I don't see them using reagents for DK pets.
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  #30  
Old 06-08-2011, 12:56 PM
Exxile87 Exxile87 is offline

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Glyphs to change the model of a DK pet is the way to go. Having them learn a bunch of summons for separate pets would be cool, but ultimately pointless if they plan on leaving the pet theme to just Unholy.
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  #31  
Old 06-08-2011, 01:18 PM
Ded Chikn Ded Chikn is offline

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I wouldn't mind a strictly cosmetic change.

Going on what Urth is saying, have the undead represent the creature you raised it from.
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  #32  
Old 06-08-2011, 01:40 PM
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I would agree that the class should get more undead pets if the hero class had been the Necromancer and not the Death Knight. Death Knights are meant to be heavily melee-focused with an undead flare, so I think that putting too much focus on the minions wouldn't be appropriate because the class would be too close to just becoming a Warlock without the demons. Death Knights already fill their niche pretty well, going foward I think that any pet changes they get should be cosmetic only.
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  #33  
Old 06-08-2011, 03:21 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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I am biased, being a Warlock myself, but I was pissed when it was spoiled how Death Knights got Army of Death.

I mean... Ever since vanilla, with the awesome Inferno spell, I've been waiting, brooding and plotting for the day when I could pop my 1 hour cooldown Rain of Chaos, making my enemies flee in terror as they are bombarded with green meteors who then rise up as a personal army of Infernals, wreaking havoc with their burning bodies of demonic rock, incinerating the flesh of my mortal enemies as I erode their fragile souls and feast upon the last vestiges of their humanity and-

*ahem*

What were we talking about?
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Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

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  #34  
Old 06-08-2011, 03:49 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
I wouldn't say so. I mean, in WCIII the DKs only had one spell that summoned undead and frankly I never used it that much. It's less integral to the class than things like death and decay or deathcoil.
They had four spells. And the undead summoning one was their ultimate.

Summoning Undead was 25% of their spells.

We are also NEVER getting a necromancer class with the Death Knight. Way too much overlap there. (Plus the Death Knight co-opted most of their spells.)

Pluuss. Every other spell that they did have. (Unholy Aura, Death Coil, Death Pact) was intended to work with the large number of undead minions fighting alongside the Death Knight.

So uh, yeah, undead minions were definitely a very large part of the Death Knight class, and were obviously intended as such in WoW, particularly with Unholy Death Knights.
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  #35  
Old 06-08-2011, 03:52 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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To be fair, Aldrius, the abilities were made to work because the player controlled mostly (only at most times) undead creatures at all times during campaigns or battles. The abilities don't strike me as having been designed around the actual undead the Death Knight raised himself.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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  #36  
Old 06-08-2011, 03:56 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
To be fair, Aldrius, the abilities were made to work because the player controlled mostly (only at most times) undead creatures at all times during campaigns or battles. The abilities don't strike me as having been designed around the actual undead the Death Knight raised himself.
Of course, but they're still the champions of the scourge and in part are a combination between several of the Undead's classes. Much as Mage's aren't just Archmages. They're archmages, sorceresses, blood mages, liches, and so forth combined.

Death Knights are a combination of Death Knights, Banshees, Necromancers... they have gargoyles and ghouls as undead minions.

I think there's still more there for unholy DKs. Maybe not necessarily more pets, but yes. I think some sort of summon should be one of their new skills next expac.
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  #37  
Old 06-08-2011, 03:59 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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I thought the thematic point of the Unholy tree was focused on diseases and plagues?

As I understood it:

Blood: The tree for harnessing life energy from living victims, to supplement your own in death.

Frost: Lich magic.

Unholy: Plague and pestilence, disease and sickness. Power of decay and aging.

I'm not sure where minions came into the picture at all, to be honest.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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  #38  
Old 06-08-2011, 04:21 PM
Ashendant Ashendant is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
I thought the thematic point of the Unholy tree was focused on diseases and plagues?

As I understood it:

Blood: The tree for harnessing life energy from living victims, to supplement your own in death.

Frost: Lich magic.

Unholy: Plague and pestilence, disease and sickness. Power of decay and aging.

I'm not sure where minions came into the picture at all, to be honest.
Ressurecting corpses as the undead is pretty unholy

Disease and plagues thematicly should be in blood spec
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  #39  
Old 06-08-2011, 04:26 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Unholy is summoning undead and diseases and stuff. Always been that way. Anything... unholy pretty much.

I dunno why we're arguing that DEATH Knights are supposed to have some sort of emphasis on undeath... it seems pretty straight-forward to me.
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  #40  
Old 06-08-2011, 04:35 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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To me, it just seems as if they wanted to preserve something from the Necromancer class and incorporate it into the Death Knight. If I had been in omnipotent charge of Death Knight developement, I'd probably have made different trees:

Plague - Selfhealing and endurance tree. Low damage, high survivability and damage mitigation. Debuffs opponents with diseases.

Lich - Damage/Control tree. Makes the Death Knight emulate lich magic by using frost and shadow magic to empower their melee combat. A battlemage-esque tree, similar to the Elemental Shamans of vanilla warcraft.

Sacriledge - Anti-caster/Anti-magic tree. Can become periodically immune or resistant to magics, and penalizes enemies who use mana. Performs acts of blasphemy to taunt and mock enemies.

I think pets as far as Death Knights goes should be more like Army of the Dead - cooldowns that summon guardians or whatnot for short periods of time. I don't think Death Knights fit as a permanent pet type of class at all.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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  #41  
Old 06-08-2011, 05:42 PM
Urth Urth is offline

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Eh, I'm of two minds on this. I agree with MV that the DK doesn't(to me!) and shouldn't feel like a pet class... but I don't think that Unholy should lose its ghoul synergy. So I'm probably contradicting myself, but hey, I'm human!

I've said before I don't think the answer is to ignore their amalgam origin of Death Knight, Runemaster, Necromancer... and my issues lie particularly with individual spells like Raise Undead, Raise Ally and Gargoyle.

As for spec themes, I actually see a distinction not as vampire tank, melee lich, or plaguemancer/necromancer... but as Yogg-Saron, Dark Ner'zhul, and Anti-Arthas.

Unholy flips the story of Arthas, as a Paladin bent on eliminating the Scourge and the Plague of Undeath. Unholy Death Knights spread diseases and lead undead armies. So more diseases, more minions, and more perversions of the Holy rites fit the spec's future, not the mad scientists and abominations of the Citadel's green wing.

Frost is DW, and relies on weapon imbues that increase frost damage. In my mind, they're like stone-cold enhancement shamans, flipping the power of the elements into their entropic opposite. Frost Death Knights reflect the hard, frozen, destructive fury of Northrend, Ner'zhul's prison during his tenure as the Lich King.

Blood is about Life as much as it is about Death, and very primevil magics of the body. Yogg-Saron is the God of Death(and the secret source for the LK's powers over undeath) and emblematic of the immortal defiance of Blood Death Knight. I muse sometimes about a secret history of Yogg-Saron influencing the Undead Nerubians into becoming the first bloodsucking undead... and them losing their place at the table when Arthas promoted his recently raised High Elves into HIS Crimson Hall residents of choice.
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  #42  
Old 06-08-2011, 05:54 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Quote:
I think pets as far as Death Knights goes should be more like Army of the Dead - cooldowns that summon guardians or whatnot for short periods of time. I don't think Death Knights fit as a permanent pet type of class at all.
That I agree with.

I just think too many cooldowns make things really awkward. And a lot of the cooldowns are far too long.
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  #43  
Old 06-08-2011, 06:04 PM
Exxile87 Exxile87 is offline

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I have a few ideas on how I'd change the talent trees around and give them some more flavor, but I think we've gone over that plenty in the past.
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  #44  
Old 06-09-2011, 08:35 AM
Urth Urth is offline

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Exx, I'm bored at work and I'd much rather discuss theoretical improvements to classes than debate Varian's strength level, the unfairness of lore, getting over the holocaust, or parsing Slowpoke's engrish.
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  #45  
Old 06-09-2011, 09:27 AM
Exxile87 Exxile87 is offline

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Blood needs a disease that mirrors Vampiric Embrace. Deals damage and heals the death knight, and have Death Strike reset it's duration. This would keep us from spamming the strike, and Blizzard could revert the Blood shield to it's old version and actually last through a couple of hits. I'd also like to see Bone Shield get a base of 5 charges.

Frost is actually pretty decent. The only thing I'd change is it's reliance on Haste making us use Unholy Presence. Frost Presence needs to be reworked.

I don't play Unholy anymore, though it was my DPS spec of choice in Wrath. I do enjoy the way they made the ghoul and the DK more interactive. A couple things I'd like to see would be glyph options for cosmetic changes to the ghoul and the return of both Shadow of Death and Corpse Explosion. For reals.
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  #46  
Old 06-09-2011, 10:06 AM
Urth Urth is offline

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Ah yeah. Removing one of the Presences would be a good step, and I think I may have mentioned removing one of the Stances on this forum as well.

Or maybe remove Presences altogether, and make Blood Presence a buff that functions like Vampiric Embrace AND Righteous Fury.

Shadow of Death works as a DPS talent or PVP talent... I'd hate for a tank to get it, a battlerez would be invalid until the post-death ghoul dropped. And Corpse Explosion was such a fun little talent. My moonkin mushrooms are kinda similar, but not the same :-(

I still think it's horribly unintuitive to have "Blood Plague" be the debuff from Plague Strike, an Unholy melee attack, especially when there's a Blood spec and you start with another ability called Blood Strike. I guess it would be stupid to call the debuff Plague Plague, so why not flip it?

Have Frost Fever applied through Icy Touch, Blood Plague applied though Blood Strike, and have Plague Strike do additional damage for each disease applied to its target. Death Strike would flip THAT, and heal the DK a percentage for each additional disease on the target. Scourge Strike replaces Plague Strike by turning the extra damage into magical attack(and amplified by talents), rather than physical(and reduced by armor). I'm going to stop now before I get dizzy and fill in the gaps with more stupid ideas...
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  #47  
Old 06-09-2011, 12:56 PM
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I was always pissed that DKs couldn't use maces of any kind. First generation DKs carried enchanted truncheons (a mace). Teron Gorefiend had one in Black Temple. I guess they didn't want to change from "enchanted rune-blades" to "enchanted rune-weapons".
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  #48  
Old 06-09-2011, 01:05 PM
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I was always pissed that DKs couldn't use maces of any kind. First generation DKs carried enchanted truncheons (a mace). Teron Gorefiend had one in Black Temple. I guess they didn't want to change from "enchanted rune-blades" to "enchanted rune-weapons".
What? Death Knights can wield maces.
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  #49  
Old 06-09-2011, 01:24 PM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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What? Since when? I haven't played mine since early wrath.
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Old 06-09-2011, 01:35 PM
Urth Urth is offline

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Haha okay I haven't played MINE since the end of Wrath. You're right that you didn't start with the ability to wield Maces back then, but they were able to be trained by Weapons Masters once you break out of the phased startzone. In Cataclysm, they got rid of that restriction and money drain and now Death Knights can wield Maces right away. Which is great since a few smart people will mail Heirloom McGowan Maces to their baby DKs.
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