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  #751  
Old 01-20-2014, 10:45 AM
neoshadow neoshadow is offline

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wich tune do I sing the orc song too?
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Shape up, Neocat. Fuck's sake.
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  #752  
Old 01-20-2014, 10:45 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
Why do you guys think so many of us have orcish sensitivities if they were always that way?
In a nutshell? Because we were told they weren't always, and weren't like that.
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  #753  
Old 01-20-2014, 10:53 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
I love how you are so hellbent on rebuking me that you have even fabricated an argument for me out of thin air.
That's what I understand from your post If you disagree with it, then maybe that the problem comes from how you write your messages or the arguments you use.

But you can be free to try to not answer at the core of my message to point out some supposed "argument made out of thin air". It wouldn't be the first time you do it.

Last edited by Korath; 01-20-2014 at 10:56 AM..
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  #754  
Old 01-20-2014, 12:54 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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wich tune do I sing the orc song too?
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  #755  
Old 01-20-2014, 04:00 PM
Odok Odok is offline

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The difference between a noble savage and a hateful warmonger is motive. WC3 introduced the notion that the orcs can fight for a good cause (a selfish cause, but good nonetheless), and that's the romanticism behind the orc fanbase.

The issue is that Garrosh tried to be a "path to hell on good intentions," we're regularly told that Garrosh wanted to make the orcs strong and secure in their home. But it's never shown. Garrosh just comes off as a hateful warmonger because we're never given that good cause, that inspiration to fight. That's the issue here: what was supposed to be a reasonable arc turned into a jarring heel turn due to poor writing.

What Was Supposed to Happen

The Horde is struggling in the wake of the Northrend Campaign. Garrosh, as a reflection of Thrall, begins pushing the orcs to become more than they are. A fever of manifest destiny and promises of glory sweep through the Horde when the Cataclysm knocks the Alliance completely on their ass. The devastation is seen as an omen that a new world order is needed and the Horde, who thrive on conflict, adjust perfectly. Victory after victory reaches Orgrimmar, and the orcs feel good about themselves for the first time in a long while. But slowly the shadow of greed falls over the Warchief. He begins taking more than he needs, starting fights when he shouldn't be. The Horde's momentum begins to sputter and murmurs float through the ranks, questioning the wisdom of the Warchief. Rifts begin to form between the orcs and the other races as Garrosh focuses more and more on the orcs at the expense of the others. Come Pandaria, the heroes of the Horde realize that they've been fighting merely to fight, that Garrosh's path of greed and conquest is neither glorious nor honorable. The orcs are drunk on power and spoils, as we slowly learn the cost of such actions and the necessity of balance and restraint. Finally Garrosh crosses the line and the bubble bursts, resulting in the civil war and the conclusion of MoP.

What We Got

The Horde is shown to be stronger than ever just prior to Cataclysm. There's no sense of want or need. The players have no investment in the faction war whatsoever, so Garrosh comes off as greedy and villainous from the start. The entire arc is missed entirely from a faulty start, but the game and the writers act like everything is going as planned. Hence the growing disconnect and complaints. There's no moral or lesson about things going too far, and the message in Pandaria whiffs entirely because it's already become obvious at this point.
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  #756  
Old 01-20-2014, 04:30 PM
Jungleluke Jungleluke is offline

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Originally Posted by Odok View Post
The difference between a noble savage and a hateful warmonger is motive. WC3 introduced the notion that the orcs can fight for a good cause (a selfish cause, but good nonetheless), and that's the romanticism behind the orc fanbase.

The issue is that Garrosh tried to be a "path to hell on good intentions," we're regularly told that Garrosh wanted to make the orcs strong and secure in their home. But it's never shown. Garrosh just comes off as a hateful warmonger because we're never given that good cause, that inspiration to fight. That's the issue here: what was supposed to be a reasonable arc turned into a jarring heel turn due to poor writing.

What Was Supposed to Happen

The Horde is struggling in the wake of the Northrend Campaign. Garrosh, as a reflection of Thrall, begins pushing the orcs to become more than they are. A fever of manifest destiny and promises of glory sweep through the Horde when the Cataclysm knocks the Alliance completely on their ass. The devastation is seen as an omen that a new world order is needed and the Horde, who thrive on conflict, adjust perfectly. Victory after victory reaches Orgrimmar, and the orcs feel good about themselves for the first time in a long while. But slowly the shadow of greed falls over the Warchief. He begins taking more than he needs, starting fights when he shouldn't be. The Horde's momentum begins to sputter and murmurs float through the ranks, questioning the wisdom of the Warchief. Rifts begin to form between the orcs and the other races as Garrosh focuses more and more on the orcs at the expense of the others. Come Pandaria, the heroes of the Horde realize that they've been fighting merely to fight, that Garrosh's path of greed and conquest is neither glorious nor honorable. The orcs are drunk on power and spoils, as we slowly learn the cost of such actions and the necessity of balance and restraint. Finally Garrosh crosses the line and the bubble bursts, resulting in the civil war and the conclusion of MoP.

What We Got

The Horde is shown to be stronger than ever just prior to Cataclysm. There's no sense of want or need. The players have no investment in the faction war whatsoever, so Garrosh comes off as greedy and villainous from the start. The entire arc is missed entirely from a faulty start, but the game and the writers act like everything is going as planned. Hence the growing disconnect and complaints. There's no moral or lesson about things going too far, and the message in Pandaria whiffs entirely because it's already become obvious at this point.
Add this to your head-canon in your sig.

It's magnificent.
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  #757  
Old 01-20-2014, 05:38 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Originally Posted by Korath View Post
That's what I understand from your post If you disagree with it, then maybe that the problem comes from how you write your messages or the arguments you use.

But you can be free to try to not answer at the core of my message to point out some supposed "argument made out of thin air". It wouldn't be the first time you do it.
The "core of [your] message," which aimed at me was the imagined argument that you invented for me. I ignored answering it, because it proceeded from your initial error. My assertions that I made in my initial post to ARM were quite explicit.

The first assertion:
Quote:
we were told almost explicitly that the Horde was made the badguys strictly to "put the 'war' back in 'Wacraft.'"
This is largely true. Blizzard wanted to bring back the Alliance vs. Horde theme, and they wanted to change the Vanilla questing, which involved giving Horde more low-level exclusive questing zones (i.e., Azshara, Hillsbrad) or more quests in shared zones (i.e. Ashenvale). (The Horde lost quests and territory elsewhere and the Alliance also made questing gains, but many people on both sides of the fence like to pretend that never happened.) Also compare the two similarly negative reactions by which both Wrath-Garrosh and Wrath-Varian received by their respective factions' fanbases, but then the two distinctly different responses made by Blizzard: i.e., toning Wrath-Varian down for Cata and toning Wrath-Garrosh up for Cata. There have already been so many posts dated from Cata that discuss how Blizzard told us conflicting story directions and inconsistent characterizations of Garrosh. When the Horde and Alliance fanbases got sick of Garrosh's narrative schizophrenia, Blizzard just stopped trying and turned up Garrosh and his Horde's into full-on villains because he was unwanted but did not have the cult of personality or fanbase that Sylvanas had. Just as Alliance-disunity was invented to give Wrath-Varian to fix, lessons orcs needed to learn were invented for purposes of Garrosh's Horde, the Horde Civil War, and now persisting into Warlords of Draenor.

My second assertion:
Quote:
The rest of [ARM's] explanation is simply trying to sugarcoat licking Blizzard's asshole of an excuse for poor writing.
This is admittedly more subjective, but despite how well-written ARM's posts are, they do sometimes come across as the apologetics of salvaging Blizzard's poor writing by trying to synthesize it into some semblance of a coherent whole. Sometimes I feel he's quite successful at that, while at other times, such as this one, I do not think that he is. This is largely because of our awareness of the meta-circumstances that surround my first assertion.

Now you responded:
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Wrong. You, and others believed that the orcs had changed in WCIII. Me, and others, never felt that way.
I believe that Thrall (and Orgrim, as the New Horde was originally his program) put the Horde on the path of redemption and that they were, in fact, making progress in that regard, but this is not something that I actually argued in my post.

Quote:
ARM, in is excellent post, is explaining perfectly why your idea that the rocs had become "good" at one point is a fallacy.
This is where your fabrication really comes in. Again, please review my post to ARM and the two assertions I made. Your idea that it was somehow my idea "that the rocs [sic] had become 'good' at one point" is a fallacy. I suppose that you would assume that my statement about orcs being turned into bad guys meant that I was arguing that orcs were good guys. That would be a false assumption. I do not believe that the redeemed orcs were so much "good" as they were typical non-villain Chaotic Neutral barbarians. (In fact, did we not have a debate earlier in which I argued quite explicitly that I read the orcs as Chaotic Neutral. And from this you now somehow argue that I believed that it's my idea that the orcs were 'good'?)

"To be good," I see as a moral virtue to which the Alliance cultures aspire (and marked by individual failings), largely due to the strong cultural influences impressed by the moral cults of the Sisterhood of Elune and the Church of the Holy Light. But I do not see "moral goodness" as something to which orcish culture aspires. Orcish culture, perhaps not so ironically, mirrors the shamanistic Elements: the elements value individualism, freedom, primal strength, and balance.
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  #758  
Old 01-20-2014, 11:33 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
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Wow, we're gonna need some scuba gear for all that #wreckage.
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  #759  
Old 01-21-2014, 01:58 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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Are things getting #savage in here?

Well, go figure, it's about a bunch of filthy greenskins and their allies.
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So many deluded people think their rotting Waifuchief cares for them and their faction, when every scrap of internalized narrative has made it clear for years that to Sylvanas, the entirety of the Horde - including her own people - is nothing more than a shitton of bodies to stack between herself and her final death.

And all it takes is a tactically calculated "for the Horde" rallying the troops to make them all think "OMG she really does care!"
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  #760  
Old 01-21-2014, 06:54 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by Crazyterran View Post
Are things getting #savage in here?
Shame I can't do lyric replacement thingies.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #761  
Old 01-21-2014, 08:42 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Not a lot of time to drop my own science in here, but props to ARM, Genesis, and Odok for their analysis. There's some good thinks happening up in this.
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  #762  
Old 01-25-2014, 11:36 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
So what I'm getting here is...
This reply sums it up perfectly.
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