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Old 06-04-2015, 01:56 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Orc Icon (War3) Who is Orgrim Doomhammer to you?

So for a project I'm working on I need to write Doomhammer, and while I'm not having a huge amount of trouble with it, it's not a character I'm super well versed in or a style I really have a handle on.

I'm basically writing him as a sort of Walter White-style mob-boss. Intelligent and capable as a leader, but not without his moral failings. Arrogant and self-interested but it's warranted because he is just that good. He sees Gul'dan as a useful tool but doesn't trust him for a moment. He is intent on conquest for the Horde, but is a respectable and fair leader none the less.

I'm trying to find the right balance basically. Between the non-as-duplicitious as Blackhand, but not as noble or peacefully inclined as say, Thrall.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:10 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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An asshole leading a race of assholes out to ingratiate himself as much as possible at the expense of all others that lived. He didn't do the orcs any favors and he certainly didn't do the Azeroth natives any favors. He didn't care as long as he was in charge.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:15 AM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
So for a project I'm working on I need to write Doomhammer, and while I'm not having a huge amount of trouble with it, it's not a character I'm super well versed in or a style I really have a handle on.

I'm basically writing him as a sort of Walter White-style mob-boss. Intelligent and capable as a leader, but not without his moral failings. Arrogant and self-interested but it's warranted because he is just that good. He sees Gul'dan as a useful tool but doesn't trust him for a moment. He is intent on conquest for the Horde, but is a respectable and fair leader none the less.

I'm trying to find the right balance basically. Between the non-as-duplicitious as Blackhand, but not as noble or peacefully inclined as say, Thrall.
He had this weird sense of honor. When Aiden gave him the map, he considered killing him for being a traitor but decided not to because the deal was done.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:23 AM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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A backstabbing scum.


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An asshole leading a race of assholes out to ingratiate himself as much as possible at the expense of all others that lived. He didn't do the orcs any favors and he certainly didn't do the Azeroth natives any favors. He didn't care as long as he was in charge.
Well I don't think he was hungry for personal power and position that much though. He seemed to have his own ideas about the Horde. He was loyal to Blackhand at first, despite his misgivings, until he found out about the Shadow Council.

In the sense that he is anti-demon (though not explicitly) but pro-conquest, I'd put him somewhere near AU Grom.

I don't think Doomhammer felt any remorse for the Humans he waged war on. But he might have felt a tinge of guilt toward Velen and the Draenei, though he probably rationalized it using Gul'dan's lies.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:26 AM
Whitrix Whitrix is offline

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Well, he wanted to conquer the Seven Kingdoms not because he liked the idea but because he saw the Horde needed it to survive. If MU Orgrim is like the one we see in WoD you can say he's somewhat not confident of himself (the incident in the foundry in the short story, he hesitated to grab the Doomhammer because of the prophecy and it was Blackhand who took it) and he's as noble as Thrall (he betrayed Blackhand the moment he saw his clan killing civilians), even more than MU Orgrim (he didn't care about the Alliance's civilians, only for a better future for his people (sacrifices are inevitable I suppose)).

Reading his biography you can see some things. For starters, he deemed his friendship with Durotan more important than the traditions of the Blackrock and the Frostowlf clans. He can see an oportunity the moment it forms and strike to get what he wants (killing Blackhand right after Gul'dan went into a coma).

He didn't care about racial supremacy like Garrosh. He got allies (trolls and goblins), even with the people he was fighting (Alterac).

He wasn't afraid of taboos. He let Gul'dan create the deathknights and used them in the war against the Alliance. He destroyed the Shadow Council, not for their unholy actions but for their position as a political player in the Horde.

Sometimes he valued honor above anything. He sent a part of the Horde to catch the treacherous Gul'dan in the middle of the siege of Lordaeron city. Maybe this was more akin to a strategy point of view than mere honor.

He took losses very seriously. After the Second War he just went to live as an hermit instead of living with other escaped orcs.

Sorry for my bad english ^^.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:34 AM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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Sometimes he valued honor above anything. He sent a part of the Horde to catch the treacherous Gul'dan in the middle of the siege of Lordaeron city. Maybe this was more akin to a strategy point of view than mere honor.
I don't think it was an "honor" thing. First, it doesn't really make you less honorable to not pursue Gul'dan. You're not the one fleeing. Second, Doomhammer seems generally tactically competent, and really, for all the talk about honor among the Orcs, as an army they behave in much the same way as the Humans do: they retreat when there is no chance. Individual Orcs may swear by Lok'tar Ogar, but the Horde as a whole is a competent nation that doesn't let brutish warrior ethics determine its actions.

I think it's possible that Doomhammer simply thought Gul'dan was a great threat, as great or greater than the Alliance. It turned out to be a mistake (Gul'dan was eaten by demons anyway), but I think he had a good reason to worry. If Gul'dan had succeeded in gaining power from the Tomb of Sargeras, he would have easily displaced Doomhammer as Warchief. In all likelihood Gul'dan already had been the most powerful Orc ever, and if he managed to get his hands on some powerful artifact, both the Alliance and the Horde may have been doomed.


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Well, he wanted to conquer the Seven Kingdoms not because he liked the idea but because he saw the Horde needed it to survive.
Is it true though? The Horde had blood lust that drove them to fight, but I don't think they needed the Seven Kingdoms to survive, let alone thrive. Stormwind was probably more than enough as far as feeding them went.


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If MU Orgrim is like the one we see in WoD you can say he's somewhat not confident of himself (the incident in the foundry in the short story, he hesitated to grab the Doomhammer because of the prophecy and it was Blackhand who took it) and he's as noble as Thrall (he betrayed Blackhand the moment he saw his clan killing civilians), even more than MU Orgrim (he didn't care about the Alliance's civilians, only for a better future for his people (sacrifices are inevitable I suppose)).
MU Orgrim also didn't care about Draenei civillians.

Parallels with Kael'thas could probably be drawn based on "I work for my people, but not for others."



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He wasn't afraid of taboos. He let Gul'dan create the deathknights and used them in the war against the Alliance. He destroyed the Shadow Council, not for their unholy actions but for their position as a political player in the Horde.
Good points. He doesn't trust Gul'dan and is wary of Mannoroth's blood, but he's pragmatic and isn't ideological like Thrall.

Last edited by Siegrune; 06-04-2015 at 02:49 AM..
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Old 06-04-2015, 03:02 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Alright, I will give you the version of Orgrim I am going with in my own project.

So, how to define great Doomhammer?

First, an able war leader. Outstanding battle commander, competent and keen strategist. Discounting the sources where the Horde was not basically able to win a single decisive victory against the Alliance (like in ToD novel) and going by other sources where the Horde won a large number of battles and would surely win had Gul'dan not betrayed it, we can clearly see how the aforementioned is the case.

Second, a great warrior, probably one of the best of his era. Now, it is arguable if he truly killed Blackhand and Lothar in an honorable single combat (or duel), but at least with Blackhand, I find it hard to believe that the Horde back then would respect a Warchief who simply murdered previous one.

Third, a pragmatic person (discounting ToD novel once again). While I believe he genuinely loved his people and tried to adhere to the warrior honor conduct, I see him as a kind of leader who puts needs of his people above everything, creating alliances primarly (or even solely) out of pragmatic reasons (although I also believe that he would not break them unless forced to) and being hard, even merciless sometimes, to his enemies, not having a qualms with killing substantial part of human population and enslaving the rest fo the good of the Horde.

Last edited by Marthen; 06-04-2015 at 03:10 AM..
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Old 06-04-2015, 03:08 AM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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but atleast with Blackhand, I find it hard to believe that the Horde back then would respect a Warchief who simply murdered previous one.
But they didn't. He was called Backstabber. It seems heavily unlikely that Doomhammer would go to the lengths of challenging his previous Warchief to Mak'gora and all the traditional honor nonsense, when he's seizing the opportunity to act as quickly as possible. The others probably had no choice but to follow, if they did not want to further endanger the unity of the Horde in wartime. And it may have been precisely Doomhammer's ruthlessness and pragmatism that made the Blackhand loyalists at least accept his leadership during the war. As I said, when acting as a nation, the Horde doesn't care that much about the honor code.

After the retcon, it's much more likely that he killed Lothar in a fair fight, because that now happened during an all-out battle. It may not have been a one-on-one duel (it's in the midst of a battle), but still nothing unfair. And Lothar was past his prime anyway.

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Old 06-04-2015, 03:20 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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But they didn't. He was called Backstabber.

After the retcon, it's much more likely that he killed Lothar in a fair fight, because that now happened during an all-out battle. It may not have been a one-on-one duel (it's in the midst of a battle), but still nothing unfair.
There is a difference between the Blackhand loyalists not liking him and whispering behind his back and all of the Horde not respecting him. I find it unrealistic for a culture where strength was measured above all to follow a leader who was not respected. Just remember, even Gul'dan had to make Blackhand a puppet Warchief since he was no warrior himself and would not be respected therefore.
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Old 06-04-2015, 03:27 AM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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There is a difference between the Blackhand loyalists not liking him and whispering behind his back and all of the Horde not respecting him. I find it unrealistic for a culture where strength was measured above all to follow a leader who was not respected. Just remember, even Gul'dan had to make Blackhand a puppet Warchief since he was no warrior himself and would not be respected therefore.
Now, I'm not necessarily suggesting that Doomhammer could not have beaten Blackhand. They were probably evenly matched (though Blackhand was bigger), and Doomhammer could have certainly won.

But given the circumstances, I doubt anything like a one-on-one, I-challenge-you-to-a-duel happened.

And no, you don't need to be a warrior to lead the Horde. Ner'zhul was no warrior, but he was the first leader of the Horde (the office of Warchief had not yet been invented). Gul'dan was not a clan chieftain, that's why he needed another as a puppet. And after Doomhammer fled, Zuluhed, a shaman, was the leader of the Horde remnants.

(And indeed remember that Doomhammer fled, instead of fighting to the end like the Dragonmaw or the Blackrock remnants. He wasn't totally nuts about honor. He didn't engage in pointless battles.)

Edit: technically you didn't say that you had to be a warrior to lead, but still, (physical) strength was not the main criterion. I think the Orcs were, when it really came down to it, pretty pragmatic, and were willing to follow anyone who could actually lead, rather than someone with brute strength.

And warriors are the weakest class in Warcraft lore anyway...

Last edited by Siegrune; 06-04-2015 at 03:38 AM..
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Old 06-04-2015, 04:13 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Now, I'm not necessarily suggesting that Doomhammer could not have beaten Blackhand. They were probably evenly matched (though Blackhand was bigger), and Doomhammer could have certainly won.

But given the circumstances, I doubt anything like a one-on-one, I-challenge-you-to-a-duel happened.

And no, you don't need to be a warrior to lead the Horde. Ner'zhul was no warrior, but he was the first leader of the Horde (the office of Warchief had not yet been invented). Gul'dan was not a clan chieftain, that's why he needed another as a puppet. And after Doomhammer fled, Zuluhed, a shaman, was the leader of the Horde remnants.

(And indeed remember that Doomhammer fled, instead of fighting to the end like the Dragonmaw or the Blackrock remnants. He wasn't totally nuts about honor. He didn't engage in pointless battles.)

Edit: technically you didn't say that you had to be a warrior to lead, but still, (physical) strength was not the main criterion. I think the Orcs were, when it really came down to it, pretty pragmatic, and were willing to follow anyone who could actually lead, rather than someone with brute strength.

And warriors are the weakest class in Warcraft lore anyway...
In current lore? Yes, they most likely are. But I thought we were talking about older era, given the fact that we were discussing a possibility of Blackhand/Doomhammer duel. Which, in current lore, is confirmed to have actually happened. And back then, warriors were actually a thing. Although quite probably not the most powerful beings, many of them were quite a beasts.

Anyway, I actually was not talking about a physical strength. I was talking about any kind of strength, respect it creates and that without respect, I find it hard for them to follow Orgrim. Or anyone for that matter. Ner'zhul and Zuluhed were both respected, even if their strength lay somewhere else than that of Orgrim or Blackhand. But you might be right of course, I am just basing this on Warcraft I manual:

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Our order of ascension is a simple one - only the strongest survive. All matters of
politics or dispute are settled in open debate. This can lead to hostilities in many cases,
but it is the fastest and simplest way to come to a conclusion on most matters. Each
Orc has the right to make heard his arguments, as long as he can back them up with
fact - or steel. To gain the upper hand is a sign of strength, and strength is counted
highly among the hordes.
Oh, and also on similarity of orcish culture with warrior cultures of our world, where murder was thought of as cowardly and despicable.

And by the way, although I do not remember reading about Doomhammer fleeing (was he not captured at Blackrock spire even as far as BtDP manual tells us?), as I said, I find him more pragmatic than idealistic, so no idea why did you brought that one up.

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Old 06-04-2015, 04:13 AM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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A butcher who, thanks to idiots like Thrall, has been whitewashed as some kind of hero.
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Old 06-04-2015, 04:32 AM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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In current lore? Yes, they most likely are. But I thought we were talking about older era, given the fact that we were discussing a possibility of Blackhand/Doomhammer duel. Which, in current lore, is confirmed to have actually happened. And back then, warriors were actually a thing. Although probably not the most powerful being, many of them were quite a beasts.
Well if a duel actually happened in current lore, then it just... settles the matter I guess.

Quote:
Anyway, I actually was not talking about a physical strength. I was talking about any kind of strength, respect it creates and that without respect, I find it hard for them to follow Orgrim. Or anyone for that matter. Ner'zhul and Zuluhed were both respected, even if their strength lay somewhere else than that of Orgrim or Blackhand. But you might be right of course, I am just basing this on Warcraft I manual:
If you include magical power as well, then Gul'dan was surely the most powerful, at least by the time of Orgrim's ascension.

But at any rate, you can say that even Nekros respected Doomhammer in the sense that he was willing to follow Doomhammer's orders; but his willingness to follow orders need not originate from the belief that Doomhammer defeated Blackhand in single combat. It may have well originated from the belief that Doomhammer was someone who earns victory, no matter the method.


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Oh, and also on similarity of orcish culture with warrior cultures of our world, where murder was thought of as cowardly and despicable.
Depends on what you mean by "murder" I guess. I wasn't really suggesting that Doomhammer stabbed Blackhand in his sleep, they may well have fought battles. But I thought the way the whole thing happened was that taking advantage of Gul'dan's comma, Doomhammer ambushed the Shadow Council members. It does not mean that Blackhand went down without having a chance to fight, but it would be very strange if Orgrim wasted time on having a duel. The whole point was to strike while the enemy was weak (i.e. Gul'dan was absent) in the first place, not about having a fair fight.



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And by the way, although I do not remember reading about Doomhammer fleeing (was he not captured at Blackrock spire even as far as BtDP manual tells us?), as I said, I find him more pragmatic than idealistic, so no idea why did you brought that one up.
As far as I know he was captured and imprisoned by the Alliance, but then escaped and went into hermitage (while the Dragonmaw were holding out in Grim Batol). The reason I brought it up is that someone pragmatic wouldn't waste time on challenging Blackhand to single combat instead of taking down the enemies as quickly as possible.



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A butcher who, thanks to idiots like Thrall, has been whitewashed as some kind of hero.
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Old 06-04-2015, 04:40 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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A genocidal, bloodthirsty monster that doesn't have the cheap excuse of crying over some demonic blood to explain away his murderous actions.
For the orcs to call their capital Orgrimmar is like the Germans would rename Berlin as Hitlerin.
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Old 06-04-2015, 04:50 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Well if a duel actually happened in current lore, then it just... settles the matter I guess.

If you include magical power as well, then Gul'dan was surely the most powerful, at least by the time of Orgrim's ascension.

But at any rate, you can say that even Nekros respected Doomhammer in the sense that he was willing to follow Doomhammer's orders; but his willingness to follow orders need not originate from the belief that Doomhammer defeated Blackhand in single combat. It may have well originated from the belief that Doomhammer was someone who earns victory, no matter the method.

Depends on what you mean by "murder" I guess. I wasn't really suggesting that Doomhammer stabbed Blackhand in his sleep, they may well have fought battles. But I thought the way the whole thing happened was that taking advantage of Gul'dan's comma, Doomhammer ambushed the Shadow Council members. It does not mean that Blackhand went down without having a chance to fight, but it would be very strange if Orgrim wasted time on having a duel. The whole point was to strike while the enemy was weak (i.e. Gul'dan was absent) in the first place, not about having a fair fight.


As far as I know he was captured and imprisoned by the Alliance, but then escaped and went into hermitage (while the Dragonmaw were holding out in Grim Batol). The reason I brought it up is that someone pragmatic wouldn't waste time on challenging Blackhand to single combat instead of taking down the enemies as quickly as possible.
Oh I see now. There was a little misunderstanding between us. What I ment with whole respect thing was that I do not think that Doomhammer would be respected as he was if he literally stabbed Blackhand in the back in a non-combat situation (or simply put, murdered him). Not that he needed to kill Blackhand in an honorable duel to earn the respect of the Horde. Or even challenge him. He just ambushed him and his loyals with his own forces and then killed him himself. But it was no honorable duel, or even a challenge.

Anyway, my former point was just that even if we do not know how exactly it happened, they fought during a battle in a single combat (by the way sorry, I ment a single combat, not a duel in my previous post), which proves he was a good (or even a great) warrior. Although it is hard to say if Orgrim had some sort of help. But they fought and he cut off head of Blackhand himself.

Edit: By the way, I thought you were talking about him fleeing from the Battle of the Blackrock Spire, no idea why.

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Old 06-04-2015, 04:53 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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An asshole leading a race of assholes out to ingratiate himself as much as possible at the expense of all others that lived. He didn't do the orcs any favors and he certainly didn't do the Azeroth natives any favors. He didn't care as long as he was in charge.
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A butcher who, thanks to idiots like Thrall, has been whitewashed as some kind of hero.
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A genocidal, bloodthirsty monster that doesn't have the cheap excuse of crying over some demonic blood to explain away his murderous actions.
For the orcs to call their capital Orgrimmar is like the Germans would rename Berlin as Hitlerin.
Seriously am not looking for this kind of stuff... don't really care about value judgments or about 'whitewashing' or what Blizzard ruined.

I seriously do not care. You guys have 50 other topics to vent about that crap if that's what you wanna do.

Just to clarify what I'm looking for, since I evidently did not make it obvious. Characteristics, motivations, goals, personality quirks. That kind of thing. Things that could actually be helpful in writing them in a narrative sense.
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Old 06-04-2015, 05:04 AM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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Oh I see now. There was a little misunderstanding between us. What I ment with whole respect thing was that I do not think that Doomhammer would be respected as he was if he literally stabbed Blackhand in the back in a non-combat situation (or simply put, murdered him). Not that he needed to kill Blackhand in an honorable duel to earn the respect of the Horde. Or even challenge him. He just ambushed him and his loyals with his own forces and then killed him himself. But it was no honorable duel, or even a challenge.
OK, we are on the same page then. That's exactly the kind of situation I've had in mind, and it gives enough room for both the interpretation that Doomhammer took the power legitimately (held by his loyal servants) and the interpretation that he is a "backstabber" (held by Blackhand loyalists).

Quote:
Anyway, my former point was just that even if we do not know how exactly it happened, they fought during a battle in a single combat (by the way sorry, I ment a single combat, not a duel in my previous post), which proves he was a good (or even a great) warrior. Although it is hard to say if Orgrim had some sort of help. But they fought and he cut off head of Blackhand himself.
Perhaps. Doomhammer is certainly the name that comes to many people when they think of a great warrior, but I personally think he is more of a commander, though a capable warrior of course. Which I don't think you are necessarily disputing. But I do think that Grom Hellscream was probably a greater combatant. Warrior powers are pretty hard to judge though (Hellscream was certainly not a warrior of the level of Mannoroth, but look what happened...).

Quote:

Edit: By the way, I thought you were talking about him fleeing from the Battle of the Blackrock Spire, no idea why.
That was partly the fault with my wording. It's probably more natural to call his actions "escaped and hid" rather than "fled."


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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
Just to clarify what I'm looking for, since I evidently did not make it obvious. Characteristics, motivations, goals, personality quirks. That kind of thing. Things that could actually be helpful in writing them in a narrative sense.
The best hypothesis I can come up about his motives is that he wanted something like the glory of the Horde. Which, to be frank, is basically saying that he's a bad guy, from a traditional moralistic point of view. Not quite a Hitler, because he did not implement deliberate genocide based on racial ideology, but nevertheless an aggressor and a "war criminal." So to that extent I think the scathing remarks of the (presumably) anti-Horde partisans have some truth. Of course it doesn't make him a bad character story-wise (or even a bad guy at all necessarily - I'm a Gul'dan loyalist after all!), but the "baker in Stormwind" has every right to feel offended about Thrall naming his capital Orgrimmar.

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Old 06-04-2015, 05:21 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Seriously am not looking for this kind of stuff... don't really care about value judgments or about 'whitewashing' or what Blizzard ruined.
Value judgments? You really think he did the Horde a favor by having them fight the Alliance? They were going to get killed either way. The only thing he preserved was his own power and glory.
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Old 06-04-2015, 05:23 AM
Siegrune Siegrune is offline

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Value judgments? You really think he did the Horde a favor by having them fight the Alliance? They were going to get killed either way. The only thing he preserved was his own power and glory.
Well, a pro-Orgrimist could argue two points here

1) the Orcs were blood lusted so they had no choice but to fight

2) Doomhammer would have won if not for Gul'dan's betrayal

and also maybe 3) Gul'dan/Medivh had already started the war, and if he had commanded the Orcs to surrender, they would have just kicked him out for being "dishonorable"

By the way let's not forget that Doomhammer tortured Garona (though WoD Khadgar also does it... for exactly the same reasons).

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Old 06-04-2015, 05:42 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I personally think he is more of a commander, though a capable warrior of course. Which I don't think you are necessarily disputing. But I do think that Grom Hellscream was probably a greater combatant.
Well, I kind of agree with that. Even though he was a pretty good (or perhaps, as I said earlier, even a great) warrior, his main strength lay in him being a superb commander. But I see him more as "Robert Baratheon" kind of commander, leading from the frontlines and fighting himself and not as "Stannis Baratheon" kind of commander, leading from behind. But yes, Grom was probably a greater combatant in general, although, who knows.

Anyway...
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I think it's possible that Doomhammer simply thought Gul'dan was a great threat, as great or greater than the Alliance. It turned out to be a mistake (Gul'dan was eaten by demons anyway), but I think he had a good reason to worry. If Gul'dan had succeeded in gaining power from the Tomb of Sargeras, he would have easily displaced Doomhammer as Warchief. In all likelihood Gul'dan already had been the most powerful Orc ever, and if he managed to get his hands on some powerful artifact, both the Alliance and the Horde may have been doomed.
I think you did hit the nail on the head there. I interpret it the same way. Orgrim went after Gul'dan since he deemed him a greater threat to his leadership (and to the Horde in turn*) than the Alliance. Thing is just that he miscalculated when he thought that the Alliance is beyond the state of recovery.

*While I truly think that Orgrim did what he did for the good of the Horde (or more precisely, what he saw as good for the Horde), I also think that after taking of a mantle of the Warchief, he came to a conclusion that he is irreplaceable and thus his leadership is requisite for the aforementioned good of the Horde.
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  #21  
Old 06-04-2015, 05:54 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Well, a pro-Orgrimist could argue two points here
And they'd be wrong. The Horde weren't going to win the 2nd war, no matter what. Even if they did win, they'd still end up fighting each other, just like they've been doing since they lost. And they didn't save any lives by choosing to go to war. Lots of orcs died for nothing, just like they would have died for nothing if they hadn't gone to war with the Alliance.

The only thing Doomhammer did was stroke his own ego and sate his own thirst for murder and conquest.
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  #22  
Old 06-04-2015, 08:44 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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So for a project I'm working on I need to write Doomhammer, and while I'm not having a huge amount of trouble with it, it's not a character I'm super well versed in or a style I really have a handle on.

I'm basically writing him as a sort of Walter White-style mob-boss. Intelligent and capable as a leader, but not without his moral failings. Arrogant and self-interested but it's warranted because he is just that good. He sees Gul'dan as a useful tool but doesn't trust him for a moment. He is intent on conquest for the Horde, but is a respectable and fair leader none the less.

I'm trying to find the right balance basically. Between the non-as-duplicitious as Blackhand, but not as noble or peacefully inclined as say, Thrall.
Strike the part about "arrogant and self-interested". The rest fits. I looked at all the other posts here, and they all have valuable contributions to his character.

Sometimes Kir and I theorized that he was a better tactician than strategist (better at leading battles than coordinating a war) to reconcile his poor record in the ToD novel. If you discount the novel in that area and lean toward WCIII interpretation that he almost won the war, then it may not factor in.

Pragmatist and diplomat. Introduced trolls and goblins into the Horde, had a guard of ogres who held personal loyalty to him. Also used Gul'dan's invention units to great success.

Also... inclined to attack! attack! attack! To rely on surprise, momentum, and decisive battle instead of defense and long-term attrition. You see this in his entire invasion scheme instead of consolidating Stormwind after the First War. Also in his final battle, with his decision to preemptively attack from Blackrock Spire instead of fortifying a defense. Blackhand and Orgrim won a war in five years, but Orgrim alone was going to win or lose the Second War in months. (Ugh, there's no way to ignore the single year war.)

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He had this weird sense of honor. When Aiden gave him the map, he considered killing him for being a traitor but decided not to because the deal was done.
Good thing, too. Because if he'd thought about it, he would've remembered that Aiden still had to redeploy his soldiers from those passes, and if Orgrim just killed Aiden for lolz and then followed that map he would've marched straight into a mountain ambush from the bulk of Alterac's border guard, who turn out to be not as cowardly as their king. And he would've exclaimed in surprise at Aiden's treachery, until he remembered "oh yeah I killed him before he could fulfill his bargain whoops". Then, since we see elsewhere that the orcs have zero combat skill in mountains, the question is whether the orcs would have been completely massacred in the first ambush, or if they would've held out until Turalyon and/or Thoras and/or Lothar came from behind to encircle and finish them off.

So yay honor! ToD novel.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 06-04-2015 at 08:47 AM..
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  #23  
Old 06-04-2015, 09:45 AM
Veryyawn Veryyawn is offline

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I know he's mostly a murdering jerk, but him being a jerk is all offscreen. In his appearances in the books he's a bro so I find it hard to wrangle up animosity for him.

Also, I'm a bit annoyed that he beat Lothar and Turalyon in fair duels then Turalyon cheated with a noskill iWin button while lying on the ground.
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  #24  
Old 06-04-2015, 09:48 AM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is offline

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To me Orgrim is:
-One of the best strategists/tacticians the orcs had in his time, being able to match and almost defeat the generals of a more advanced species than his own.

-A charismatic and diplomatic leader that inspired loyalty in his ranks and who knew how to play his cards and get allies when he needed to.

-A very powerful warrior that could probably match pretty much anyone in the Horde.

-A fairly honorable man, as far as orcs are concerned, but he overlooks that if he feels he'll get results, which makes him more of a pragmatist than a man of honor, but I think that he still sees himself as honorable until he's defeated by the Alliance. By the time he meets Thrall I think he understands on some level that he's not quite that honorable.

-Wants what's best for his own people, and while I don't think he's completely unsympathetic to others, he's willing to fuck them over if his people benefit.

-While he killed Blackhand mainly because he thought it'd be best for the Horde, I think a part of him actually wanted to seize power for himself. He just wasn't willing to kill Blackhand over it before because he respected him until he found out he was a puppet, and perhaps he wasn't entirely sure he could beat Blackhand and wasn't power hungry enough to try it. I'm not sure how honest he is with himself about this during the second war though.


^Kind of messy, biased and nothing others haven't said maybe but I'm in a bit of a hurry. Good luck with whatever you need opinions on Orgrim for.
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And that is the Drama to being part of the Horde. There are people out there who want you dead. You honestly can’t blame them. Do you lie down and die for them? No. You enjoy the challenge. You keep your head up and move forward.

Last edited by Royalpimp; 06-04-2015 at 09:50 AM..
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  #25  
Old 06-04-2015, 10:43 AM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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To me, Orgrim is a conqueror. The Warcraft version of Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, or Timur. Hated and feared by his enemies, but by his people he is loved and celebrated as a hero. Conquerors often do terrible things to their foes. That's just the way of war. I don't think Orgrim is any more evil than the ancient elven and human warlords who drove out the forest trolls, only that Orgrim's "crimes" (lol) are more recent.

I consider him a man of honor, but he struggles to balance his honor with pragmatism. Sometimes, the honorable thing isn't the smart thing. Sometimes, Orgrim gives into what he considers honorable and other times he gives into what he deems is the best course of action. He struggles to lead his people to victory while also maintaining this personal code of honor and these two things conflict very often.

Orgrim knows the difference between right and wrong. He's intelligent, he knew the rise of the Horde was suspicious. He knew there were things bigger than him at work behind the scenes. He knew this, but he also knew he did not possess the power to stop it. All he could do was struggle between his duty to his chieftain, his friendship with Durotan, and his personal code of honor. However, Orgrim is an orc. Orcs revel in battle, in conquest, in bloodshed. They take delight in crushing their enemies. This was how their species developed on the harsh world of Draenor. Orgrim couldn't deny who he was. Despite the wrongness of it all, he did take joy in it. Maybe it was simpler for him to just "shut off" his mind, stop thinking about all the suspicious things, and simply say "yes, Warchief," and kill draenei/humans/etc.

Somewhere along the line, he kills Blackhand and becomes Warchief. I think his reasons for doing so are more complex than what appears on the surface. Orgrim probably would never have taken control of the Horde if Gul'dan had never fallen into a coma. I believe Orgrim was waiting for a moment like that to appear ever since the rise of the Horde back on Draenor. I think, even when he obeyed Blackhand and dutifully (and perhaps even happily) slaughtered draenei, he was already setting plans in motion to usurp his chieftain. Orgrim knew he couldn't just usurp Blackhand while Blackhand had the support of Gul'dan and all the other chieftains. Blackhand was leading them successfully. If Orgrim struck Blackhand down, questions would be raised. But as soon as Gul'dan was out of the picture, as soon as Orgrim was fully capable of piecing the entire picture together, he took immediate action. He slaughtered the warlocks, killed Blackhand, and became Warchief. Even though Blackhand still had the approval of the common orc, Orgrim knew he would never have a moment as sweet as the one he had then.

They called him Backstabber, because they thought he was a greedy, selfish usurper. A mongrel who overthrew his Warchief for no reason other than his own personal desire for glory. What they didn't know, was that he'd put the fate of the Orcish people back into the hands of an orc. Orgrim was no puppet of the warlocks. He was his own man. He would then struggle to balance and juggle a ton of factors such as the Doomhammer's prophecy. Orgrim feared that prophecy. He knew the orcs would begun fighting among each other if they remained idle. He knew that the kingdom of Stormwind's lands would not be large enough to settle the entirety of the Orcish race. (Remember, there were still a shitload of clans back on Draenor that sat out the First and Second Wars. Warsong, Shattered Hand, Thunderlord, Laughing Skull, Bonechewer, etc.) He did not want to be the one to "damn" his people. He did not want to be remembered as the one who let his people consume themselves.

He needed to take the world, for his own sake as much as that of his people's. All in all, I consider Orgrim to be a very compelling character. He had so many things he had to consider, juggle, balance, weigh, consider, and pay attention to. Things that often conflicted with each other in the most severe of ways. He was complex and interesting because of that. A really great character.

Last edited by Frostwolf; 06-04-2015 at 10:45 AM..
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