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  #51  
Old 09-16-2010, 05:30 PM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
He told her she got other duties and leave. Where did it say Jaina prepared the group and not Antonidas?
Where did it say Antondias prepared the group? In your own mind?

Antonidas says that he specifically DIDN’T organize the group. He merely reminds Jaina of the duties she has committed herself too, duties that he shirked. Tell me something, how does one shirk a duty yet still do it?

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1 It's too late for the entire city to move out.
Which is odd if he was the one planning the evacuation in the first place. Oh wait, he wasn’t and he says he wasn’t. Jaina was.


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2 They can not leave the city empty and all run away because all the magical treasure here will greatly help the Scourge.
So instead let the Scourge kill them and then take the magical treasures? Much more logical. Read what he is saying. He knows he is going to die, he’s not keeping the Scourge from anything. Where does it say that, by the way? Nowhere.


Seriously, I don’t know how to prove you are wrong more than showing you the text itself and explaining it to you. If you don’t get it at this point, I don’t think you ever will. I mean, perhaps English isn’t your first language, but this should be easily understandable. You can read it like it was intended, where there is no retcon, or you can construct all these wild theories in order to have something to complain about - but you’re manufacturing your own retcon. Its not there.
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  #52  
Old 09-16-2010, 05:39 PM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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Because of his refusal to listen to that strange prophet, he ended up murdered by his son, and his kingdom lies in ruins, inhabited only by the dead.
Wait a minute... Don't wanna derail the thread here, but isn't that completely wrong? In WC3 Jaina's sail to Kalimdor precedes the fall of Lordaeron. Hell, Arthas doesn't even attack Dalaran until he's back from Northrend... and there's TONS of other events in between... In the excerpt that Gurt linked, Arthas has already killed Terenas, he's about to attack Dalaran with the Scorge under his control and Jaina still hasn't set sail for Kalimdor. Anyone else completely blown away but this clusterfuck?

Jesus, does this book really change THAT many things?

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  #53  
Old 09-16-2010, 05:47 PM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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Wait a minute... Don't wanna derail the thread here, but isn't that completely wrong? In WC3 Jaina's sail to Kalimdor precedes the fall of Lordaeron. Hell, Arthas doesn't even attack Dalaran until he's back from Northrend... and there's TONS of other events in between... In the excerpt that Gurt linked, Arthas has already killed Terenas, he's about to attack Dalaran with the Scorge under his control and Jaina still hasn't set sail for Kalimdor. Oh, and Kel'Thuzad is still human and a member of the Kirin Tor? Anyone else completely blown away but this clusterfuck?

Jesus, does this book really change THAT many things?
Not really, since it never said exactly when Jaina left. All we knew is the humans arrived shortly before the orcs did, and the orcs arrived after the undead campaign. Her teams were “survivors,” so it seems they would have needed something to survive - that being, the fall of Lordaeron and essentially the whole continent. Since her survivors consisted of many from Quel’thalas and Lordaeron, it stands to reason Arthas had already gone about crushing those areas in the Undead campaign before she rallied enough to make the expedition.
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  #54  
Old 09-16-2010, 05:48 PM
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Where did it say Antondias prepared the group? In your own mind?

Antonidas says that he specifically DIDN’T organize the group. He merely reminds Jaina of the duties she has committed herself too, duties that he shirked. Tell me something, how does one shirk a duty yet still do it?



Which is odd if he was the one planning the evacuation in the first place. Oh wait, he wasn’t and he says he wasn’t. Jaina was.




So instead let the Scourge kill them and then take the magical treasures? Much more logical. Read what he is saying. He knows he is going to die, he’s not keeping the Scourge from anything. Where does it say that, by the way? Nowhere.


Seriously, I don’t know how to prove you are wrong more than showing you the text itself and explaining it to you. If you don’t get it at this point, I don’t think you ever will. I mean, perhaps English isn’t your first language, but this should be easily understandable. You can read it like it was intended, where there is no retcon, or you can construct all these wild theories in order to have something to complain about - but you’re manufacturing your own retcon. Its not there.
Ok buddy I took a look on the whole novel.

After Stratholme, Jaina talked to Medivh.

“I will do as you say.”
And leave my Arthas to the destiny he has chosen. There is no other way.
“It will take time, to gather them all. To make them believe me.”
“I do not know that you have that much time left. So much of it has already been squandered.”
Jaina lifted her chin. “I cannot go without trying. If you know so much about me, then surely you must know that.”
The raven prophet seemed to relax marginally and smiled at her, squeezing her shoulder. “Do what you feel you must, but do not tarry overlong. The hourglass empties swiftly, and delay could be deadly.”
She nodded, too overcome to speak. So many to talk to—Antonidas’s chief among them. If he would listen to anyone, she thought, it would be her. She would bear witness for these dead—for the folly of not retreating to Kalimdor while the living yet walked here.

And

“Your petty magics will not stop me, Antonidas. Perhaps you’ve heard what happened in Quel’Thalas? They thought themselves invulnerable as well.”
Quel’Thalas.
Jaina thought she might be sick. She had been here in Dalaran when word had come, from a handful of survivors who had managed to escape, about what had happened to Quel’Thalas. So too had been the quel’dorei prince. She had never seen Kael’thas so—so angry, so shattered, so raw. She had gone to him, words of compassion and comfort on her lips, but he whirled and gazed at her with such a look of fury that she instinctively drew back.

She was in Dalaran when Quel'Thalas fall.

OK so what happened, I guess is:

Jaina went back to Dalaran after Stratholme, told Antonidas what happened there. Antonidas maybe wasn't totally sure at first, but with the fall of the two kingdoms, he saw the truth and helped her gather the group as the one of the highest leaders of the Alliance. And then what happened is what you quoted.


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Not really, since it never said exactly when Jaina left. All we knew is the humans arrived shortly before the orcs did, and the orcs arrived after the undead campaign. Her teams were “survivors,” so it seems they would have needed something to survive - that being, the fall of Lordaeron and essentially the whole continent. Since her survivors consisted of many from Quel’thalas and Lordaeron, it stands to reason Arthas had already gone about crushing those areas in the Undead campaign before she rallied enough to make the expedition.
It never showed when did she leave, but her dad's fleet left before Lordaeron fall.
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  #55  
Old 09-16-2010, 05:49 PM
AndyJP AndyJP is offline

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If you're going to take that tack, why does it matter that someone has boats, or roads, or any other transportation network? Clearly these things are important, otherwise they wouldn't have them.

Why, in fact, even have an army at all? Why aren't wars fought by having mages make portals to several miles right above the enemy's capital (adjusting for orbital rotation, natch) and then simply sending a bunch of twenty-ton blocks of concrete through it? Or, hell, do it all the way in to orbit. Congratulations, you just sunk all of Durotar.

Clearly "hurfdurf portals" isn't a viable solution to everything.
Yeah I wish it was addressed in a novel or in the games why they can't simply do that. If mages could really sit and open portals all day long then flight masters would be out of business.
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  #56  
Old 09-16-2010, 06:10 PM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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Ok buddy I took a look on the whole novel.

After Stratholme, Jaina talked to Medivh.

“I will do as you say.”
And leave my Arthas to the destiny he has chosen. There is no other way.
“It will take time, to gather them all. To make them believe me.”
“I do not know that you have that much time left. So much of it has already been squandered.”
Jaina lifted her chin. “I cannot go without trying. If you know so much about me, then surely you must know that.”
The raven prophet seemed to relax marginally and smiled at her, squeezing her shoulder. “Do what you feel you must, but do not tarry overlong. The hourglass empties swiftly, and delay could be deadly.”
She nodded, too overcome to speak. So many to talk to—Antonidas’s chief among them. If he would listen to anyone, she thought, it would be her. She would bear witness for these dead—for the folly of not retreating to Kalimdor while the living yet walked here.
Wow… so what you just quoted explicitly shows Jaina listening to Medivh and deciding to follow his advice. It does not show Anthonidas making that decision, it shows Jaina making the decision. It shows Jaina deciding that SHE was going to have to rally all the survivors she could and TRY to convince Antonidas to take the trip. He didn’t, he waited way too long and ended up dying for his bad decision.

What you have quoted essentially proves my point.

If you want to say that she was taking orders from Medivh, then that I can’t argue with. She absolutely followed what he told her to do - which is the first part you bolded there. She wasn’t talking to Antonidas when she said that, she was talking to Medivh.


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OK so what happened, I guess is:

Jaina went back to Dalaran after Stratholme, told Antonidas what happened there. Antonidas maybe wasn't totally sure at first, but with the fall of the two kingdoms, he saw the truth and helped her gather the group as the one of the highest leaders of the Alliance. And then what happened is what you quoted.
Or, Jaina was visiting everyone like Medivh told her, including Dalaran which was her home, making plans and taking all the refugees she could gather for an escape to Kalimdor. That is what everyone KNOWS happened.

You are throwing in unneeded and unstated assumptions, like “Ohh, Antonidas must have then gave her ANOTHER order to do it after she already took it upon herself to follow Medivh.” Again, you’re making your own retcons. I don’t know why you’re doing it, since you claim you hate it so much.
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Old 09-16-2010, 06:13 PM
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Wow… so what you just quoted explicitly shows Jaina listening to Medivh and deciding to follow his advice. It does not show Anthonidas making that decision, it shows Jaina making the decision. It shows Jaina deciding that SHE was going to have to rally all the survivors she could and TRY to convince Antonidas to take the trip. He didn’t, he waited way too long and ended up dying for his bad decision.

What you have quoted essentially proves my point.

If you want to say that she was taking orders from Medivh, then that I can’t argue with. She absolutely followed what he told her to do - which is the first part you bolded there. She wasn’t talking to Antonidas when she said that, she was talking to Medivh.




Or, Jaina was visiting everyone like Medivh told her, including Dalaran which was her home, making plans and taking all the refugees she could gather for an escape to Kalimdor. That is what everyone KNOWS happened.

You are throwing in unneeded and unstated assumptions, like “Ohh, Antonidas must have then gave her ANOTHER order to do it after she already took it upon herself to follow Medivh.” Again, you’re making your own retcons. I don’t know why you’re doing it, since you claim you hate it so much. Do you just really want something to complain about?
Yes, she accepted Medivh's advice and told Antonidas. I'm not saying you are wrong. I must admit I didn't read the novel carefully on that part.

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  #58  
Old 09-16-2010, 06:17 PM
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Metzen informed his favorite hero is Malfurion, I believe that's the main reason Tyrande didn't do much.
Is that why his former favorite hero, Thrall, is stuck at the Maelstrom "keeping the world together", in the expansion that should've been his moment to shine, after being 'stuck' as Horde leader for the last 5ish years?
I mean, it's great and all that he's actually the person keeping the world from imploding, but it's rather dull storywise. They could've easily put 20 unknown shamans doing his job, while he's in Deepholme kicking ass and chewing bubblegum. An expansion that is supposed to fleshen out the Earthen Ring a lot more, is leaving their most powerful member giving 1 quest ?!
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  #59  
Old 09-16-2010, 06:21 PM
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Is that why his former favorite hero, Thrall, is stuck at the Maelstrom "keeping the world together", in the expansion that should've been his moment to shine, after being 'stuck' as Horde leader for the last 5ish years?
I mean, it's great and all that he's actually the person keeping the world from imploding, but it's rather dull storywise. They could've easily put 20 unknown shamans doing his job, while he's in Deepholme kicking ass and chewing bubblegum. An expansion that is supposed to fleshen out the Earthen Ring a lot more, is leaving their most powerful member giving 1 quest ?!
When did he say his favorite is Thrall?
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  #60  
Old 09-16-2010, 06:23 PM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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Is that why his former favorite hero, Thrall, is stuck at the Maelstrom "keeping the world together", in the expansion that should've been his moment to shine, after being 'stuck' as Horde leader for the last 5ish years?
I mean, it's great and all that he's actually the person keeping the world from imploding, but it's rather dull storywise. They could've easily put 20 unknown shamans doing his job, while he's in Deepholme kicking ass and chewing bubblegum. An expansion that is supposed to fleshen out the Earthen Ring a lot more, is leaving their most powerful member giving 1 quest ?!
Because with the Cataclysm's much more active and expanded storytelling, Thrall will clearly be doing the same thing for 3-4 patches until the end of the expansion that he's currently doing in the beta, amirite?
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  #61  
Old 09-16-2010, 06:58 PM
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Because with the Cataclysm's much more active and expanded storytelling, Thrall will clearly be doing the same thing for 3-4 patches until the end of the expansion that he's currently doing in the beta, amirite?
Keeping the world from imploding seems to be a job that you can't just stop doing for a moment to go kill some baddies. I do hope they somehow fix the situation, but as it is atm, Thrall got screwed over.
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  #62  
Old 09-16-2010, 07:03 PM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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Keeping the world from imploding seems to be a job that you can't just stop doing for a moment to go kill some baddies. I do hope they somehow fix the situation, but as it is atm, Thrall got screwed over.
It was a gimmick to get Thrall out of the story while still having him do something important (literally saving the world) in order to develop the story and explore a world without their superhero.

The fact that Thrall destroyed the polls in indicative of the fact that Thrall has been so prominent in Warcraft history, arguably the star of WCIII and the face of the Horde for a decade. No question, people love Thrall. But its kind of like Superman on the Justice League. Sometimes it can be more interesting when he's NOT there to solve everyone’s problems and always make the right, moral decision.
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Old 09-16-2010, 07:06 PM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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Keeping the world from imploding seems to be a job that you can't just stop doing for a moment to go kill some baddies. I do hope they somehow fix the situation, but as it is atm, Thrall got screwed over.
Well, considering we go down to Deepholm to fix the shit and help reconstruct the World Pillar by finding and bringing back pieces of it, I think Thrall's work there will be pretty much done after that. Guess we can safely assume Blizzard won't keep him there for the whole expansion (at least i hope so).
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  #64  
Old 09-16-2010, 07:07 PM
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It'll be awesome to see Garrosh grow into a less perfect but also great leader, like Doomhammer.
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  #65  
Old 09-16-2010, 07:19 PM
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It'll be awesome to see Garrosh grow into a less perfect but also great leader, like Doomhammer.
Great leader for the orcs, perhaps... but he's doing a pretty good job alienating the rest of the Horde, killing Baine's father(accidental or not, without Garrosh, Cairne would still be alive), trashing the trolls, going as far as Vol'jin threatening to kill him(only because Thrall convinced him, he stayed), calling Sylvanas a bitch after doing something(I think) was an honest way to help the Horde. The best connection he has with his allies are 2 factions who are rather indifferent about him.
Honestly, he still has a long way to go to be Doomhammer's equal, right now he's doing a good job fueling a rebellion against him.
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  #66  
Old 09-16-2010, 08:12 PM
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That's how I see her character. What would you have her do?
Jaina, I'd have command the Alliance (as in Alliance-Alliance, not Night Elves.) armies in Kalimdor against Garrosh and his Horde. Not as a general mind you, but as a supervisor of sorts. Especially since she can teleport (and it makes a lot more sense than Garrosh portaling all over the damn place) it'd be easy to work her into storylines as a quest-giver in say Southern Barrens and Dustwallow.

As for her role in the story, I'd have her as somebody like what Baine seems to be right now. A conscious for the more war-happy Alliance. Supporting the war effort, but not without a viewpoint of her own. Not going behind people's backs and sabotaging her own faction's war efforts and acting like a little child all the damn time.

Also I'd have her stop calling Varian "my king" all the fucking time.

That's my reasonable thoughts about it. My unrealistic dreams are that she'd be the head of the Alliance (in a similar capacity to Thrall was to the Horde before), because disregarding her stupidity and inaction in TFT I thought she was a nice fit for the role, and after Battle of Mount Hyjal she made a nice counterpart to him as well. Plus the WoW manual pretty much said that's what she was.

I think in general what I want, if I had to put it into one word was for Jaina (and Tyrande) is to be more respectable. They're not worthy of respect anymore. They're both just... pathetic. They have no power anymore.

Like in pretty much all of her quest-text and the in-game cinematic stuff Sylvanas comes across as somebody worth respecting. People accuse her of things and she deflects them, that whole conversation with Garrosh she comes across as a lot more capable and clairvoyant than he does, even though he's making a good point.

Sylvanas is always in CONTROL. Jaina never feels like she's in control in WOTLK, and Tyrande is never put into a position where we can even question if she's in control or not. All of her dialogue feels like she's giving a speech on TV rather than like she's living in the moment. Which doesn't suit her AT ALL. (It doesn't suit any WarCraft character that I can think of. Even Terenas wasn't like that.)

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It's retconned only in the sense that in addition to what originally happened, she swung by Dalaran to say goodbye to Antonidas (and get bitched out by Kael'thas). The original events still took place, and she was still setting sail across the sea to an unknown land that may or may not even have turned out to be any safer than what they left behind.
It's kinda sticky as far as the timeline is concerned, though. There's no real concrete reason to think this because it's never really explicitly stated, but I always figured she was gone by the time Arthas had killed Terenas. I mean that would give her more than enough time to sail to Kalimdor and get there at the same time the Orcs did. (With their little detour at the Maelstrom)

Her still being in Lordaeron when Dalaran was being attacked just seems too close to me. I believe she probably went and consulted Antonidas, but... not when ARTHAS was attacking. Sheesh.

Granted apparently it only takes 2 days to sail from Kalimdor to Lordaeron in the Night Elf Frozen Throne campaign... so... yeah, timelines were never WarCraft's strong suit, though they kind of made the effort in Reign of Chaos at least.

And... consulting Antonidas doesn't weaken her position at all. Especially considering how new she was to leadership and that Antonidas was a mentor for her, and such. But by WOTLK, she's been a leader for almost as long as Thrall has, and gone through many of the same trials and tribulations. She should be a lot more confident than she is. And she was always FAIRLY confident.

Generally because she's a heroic character in a fantasy piece, and they tend not to be very hesitant or fearful, but still.
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:15 PM
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Her problem is even thought about reason with Arthas when he was attacking Dalaran.
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:02 PM
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It'll be awesome to see Garrosh grow into a less perfect but also great leader, like Doomhammer.
Doomhammer was a shitty leader.
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:13 PM
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Doomhammer was a shitty leader.
HOW? He was winning till gul'dan left, and only lost (and essentially saved the world) by sending forces after him.
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:15 PM
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If you guys derail my awesome overplayed topic I will shake my fist at you.
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:35 PM
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HOW? He was winning till gul'dan left, and only lost (and essentially saved the world) by sending forces after him.
Reasons aside he lost.
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:39 PM
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killing Baine's father(accidental or not, without Garrosh, Cairne would still be alive)
This is where I gotta stop you. The implication is that the Grimtotems had been spiking Cairne's drinks with a slow poison. Some months ago, when asked to compare Warcraft characters to other characters, I compared Cairne - the aging, relatively popular leader - to K'mpec, the Chancellor of the Klingon High Council in the early years of The Next Generation (yes, I'm a Trekkie), who was killed in very much the same manner, poison through drink at the hands of a political rival.

Yes, the duel with Garrosh accelerated the process, but is it fair to make Garrosh as guilty for Cairne's death as Magatha and her tribe? And, for that matter - if Garrosh had not entered the duel with Cairne, how long before Cairne actually did die from the poison?
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Old 09-16-2010, 11:16 PM
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Loathe though I am to suggest it, I'm caused to think the romantic relationships of characters in WarCraft were better left far, far in the background. The Jaina/Arthas dynamic worked just fine and dandy when it was Arthas dismissing and turning against his close and trusted friend. We didn't need one last fling between them (in the aftermath of butchering their first undead citizens. Yeah, no potential dysfunction in that association there...) to turn it into the drama of lovers spurned and all that crap and makes me start wondering if I'll ever get to just see the damned ship sink.

...okay, that's not entirely the same story. Same point applies, though.

Tyrande and Jaina are both prime examples that Blizzard seemingly just isn't capable of portraying such relationships between characters without turning one character's entire existence into a plot device for the actions of the other. Every romance, rather than being about trust and closeness and understanding, boils down to a borderline obsessive condition as the characters spend every waking moment fretting about it. Hence Jaina became a plot device for Arthas through her clinging to the baseless hope that somewhere within him there still existed someone better than the Arthas who chose his own fate, and Tyrande became little more than an accessory to all the important stuff Malfurion's doing.

And it's all because they made the relationships front-and-center far beyond what was necessary, while casting off actual deeds and accomplishments like secondary aspects of the story.

It stuck, and now we've got Jaina not so much being overly emotional, but rather being only emotional. Tempered with an accompanying continuance of the Jaina from before, her actions in WotLK wouldn't seem so askew (a bit so,but not nearly as much). By themselves all we see is the Jaina who stands helplessly by among her bickering fellow rulers, cries for her king who's not really her king, anbd thinks that after killing his father and his mentor didn't faze him while he was at least still Arthas, somehow in his most corrupt and irretrievable state the Lich King will come back to her after their last encounter ended with Arthas believing she'd betrayed him.

As meanwhile Tyrande spent WoW staring listlessly at the wall of the temple in Darnassus and waiting for Malfurion to come back in Stormrage and set everything straight. By all rights she should have exerted her ten thousand year old leadership among the night elves from day one to put Fandralin his place and turn every orc north of Silverwing Refuge into a pincushion. Instead she just stood by, despite having the Sentinels at her back and even the Cenarion Circle at odds with Staghelm and allowed him to practically run the place while she mooned over her slumbering husband. What kind of namby-pamby pacifist have they have turned her into for her to let the very author of Malfurion's malady direct their society essentially unopposed? She's the High Priestess; she should have been grilling everyone for solutions and seeking out the real experts in the Green Dragonflight instead of just letting the druids and priestesses fail at waking him up for years on end and assuming they knew what they were doing. Fandral lacked her support and therefore that of the temple and the Sentinals, and he alienated the Cenarion Circle (which includes Remulos and whatever allies of nature he brings with him), and he was presiding over a broken World Tree that was all his idea. He shouldn't have had a leg to stand on and Tyrande should have kicked him out on his ass. From the look of things Malfurion warned against Teldrassil, then fell asleep, and when Fandral went ahead with it anyway Tyrande's response was to be too sad to do anything about it.

I really, really hate to say it, but I can't help thinking Sylvanas might be as dynamic and interesting as she is now because they haven't attached her to another character. Fan theories about Nathanos aside, whatever the case is in that regard, it's not being hauled up in front of us and waved about to keep us from seeing everything else that's going on.

In a way the handling of Jaina and Tyrande are why I wasn't as jarred as some when the parents of Med'an were definitively revealed (well his father, since we knew Garona was his mom already). Whenever it was mentioned that there wasn't a strong enough basis in DotD for romantic feelings between her and Medivh, my first thought was always "Good! I hope it stays that way. If they try to flesh out that courtship too they'll just screw it up and wreck the characters."

Because the one thing worse than not having any character development is stripping away what development characters already have.




And the crying...male, female, adult or child, as far as I'm concerned no voice acted character in a video came should ever cry during a scripted event. Sorry, but I don't trust it. It's like explosive flatulence at a funeral: an offense to those present regardless of whether offense is intended or not. The circumstances are immaterial as to whether it's appropriate; voice-acted crying inserted into spoken dialogue inevitably bludgeons whatever immersion is going on at the time and leaves me thinking "Dammit, I stopped even listening after the crying started." It's never done right, I'm not entirely convinced anyone ever will do it right, and every time I hear it attempted I cringe and harbor thoughts of turning off the sound for every future game cinematic just in case someone tries it again.

Well, one exception. A voice-acted ogre can cry. They've got the voice for it and they're supposed to be embarrassingly silly sometimes anyway. Hard to kill the mood for a race that bounces back-and-forth from viable threat to humanity to a walking, talking fart and poop joke with bad grammar.
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Old 09-17-2010, 12:42 AM
Debatably terrible Debatably terrible is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
By all rights she should have exerted her ten thousand year old leadership among the night elves from day one to put Fandralin his place and turn every orc north of Silverwing Refuge into a pincushion.
Which brings up an interesting point- is there any evidence of Thrall and Tyrande communicating since Hyjal? You'd think that after Archimonde died the three groups (Horde, Night Elves, Theramore) would have at least attempted to establish some sort of boundaries.
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Old 09-17-2010, 02:58 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Which brings up an interesting point- is there any evidence of Thrall and Tyrande communicating since Hyjal? You'd think that after Archimonde died the three groups (Horde, Night Elves, Theramore) would have at least attempted to establish some sort of boundaries.
There's no evidence that Tyrande has done anything except go "My Heart sleeps in the Emerald Dream..." say some official Alliance crap, talk about how awesome Furion is, beat up a dragon and say dumb stuff like "Wait... druids get their power from NATURE, don't they?" since The Frozen Throne.

And yeah, ARM, it really is a shame. Their connections to Arthas and Furion really defined their characterization far too much after TFT. Sylvanas had that problem a bit with Arthas as well (and Maiev with Illidan) but now that Arthas is... well... dead. Sylvanas seems to have moved onto other pursuits. Like enslaving people, raising the dead, and unleashing plague-driven apocalypses against her enemies.
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