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View Poll Results: High King of the Alliance
Bad Idea 38 30.16%
Worst Idea 48 38.10%
'Good' Idea 40 31.75%
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  #251  
Old 09-22-2012, 05:19 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Hitler had the Reichstag, Cromwell had Parliament and Hirohito had the Diet. A legislative body doesn't prevent fascism.
The difference is that the House of Nobles wields actual power, as demonstrated with the Stonemasons.
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  #252  
Old 09-22-2012, 05:21 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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  #253  
Old 09-22-2012, 05:21 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Supreme Allied Commander is a better sounding title, has more limits on their power by default, and has precedent in lore.

I wouldn't exactly like it as I feel that a global war under a single leader won't end up too well, but at least it's less likely to make me want to bash my face into my desk like High King.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #254  
Old 09-22-2012, 05:23 PM
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The difference is that the House of Nobles wields actual power, as demonstrated with the Stonemasons.
No. The greatest check was Onyxia's magic preventing King Varian from exercising the full extent of his supreme executive power. Varian's return also likely probably caused him to further restrict the powers of the House of Nobles to place checks on him.
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  #255  
Old 09-22-2012, 05:29 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Hitler had the Reichstag, Cromwell had Parliament and Hirohito had the Diet. A legislative body doesn't prevent fascism.
And Mussolini had his Grand Council of Fascism which was the legislative body of Fascist Italy, which theorectically was his only check on his power, but ended up being put into a position similar to the rubber stamp Reichstag and only actually did exercise their power when it became clear that Italy was about to be "conquered" by the Allies and wanted to save their own skins.

And if you actually read into the GCF, depending on just how someone gets into the Council of Nobles, it could be similar in that Mussolini decided who and who couldn't sit on it. Which is why I would love to find out more information about the Council and just how much power/background they really have.
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  #256  
Old 09-22-2012, 05:34 PM
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I left out Mussolini because I couldn't be fucked to check wikipedia and couldn't remember what fascist Italy's legislation was called. Thanks!
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  #257  
Old 09-22-2012, 05:37 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Lol. The human nobles of one nation are the "checks" to the fascism of the human High King of the Alliance of more than just one human kingdom.
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  #258  
Old 09-22-2012, 05:40 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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I left out Mussolini because I couldn't be fucked to check wikipedia and couldn't remember what fascist Italy's legislation was called. Thanks!
np np glad to help. I've had to write a couple term papers on Fascism, so my interest always gets piqued whenever it gets thrown around.
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  #259  
Old 09-22-2012, 06:10 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Lol. The human nobles of one nation are the "checks" to the fascism of the human High King of the Alliance of more than just one human kingdom.
Stop misusing the word "fascism."

Fascism ( /ˈfʃɪzəm/) is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology.[1][2] Fascists seek to unify their nation based on commitment to an organic national community where its individuals are united together as one people through national identity.[3][4] The unity of the nation is to be based upon suprapersonal connections of ancestry and culture through a totalitarian state that seeks the mass mobilization of the national community through discipline, indoctrination, physical training, and eugenics.[3][5] Fascism seeks to eradicate perceived foreign influences that are deemed to be causing degeneration of the nation or of not fitting into the national culture.[6]

An international organization by definition cannot be fascist, particularly an international organization made up of completely different races and species.

You're thinking of an Empire, but using "fascism" because it's a loaded word.
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  #260  
Old 09-22-2012, 06:27 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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I was only referring to it in the way you were. You said it wasn't fascism because there were "checks" in place, I think those "checks" are pathetic.
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  #261  
Old 09-22-2012, 07:10 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Stop misusing the word "fascism."

Fascism ( /ˈfʃɪzəm/) is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology.[1][2] Fascists seek to unify their nation based on commitment to an organic national community where its individuals are united together as one people through national identity.[3][4] The unity of the nation is to be based upon suprapersonal connections of ancestry and culture through a totalitarian state that seeks the mass mobilization of the national community through discipline, indoctrination, physical training, and eugenics.[3][5] Fascism seeks to eradicate perceived foreign influences that are deemed to be causing degeneration of the nation or of not fitting into the national culture.[6]

An international organization by definition cannot be fascist, particularly an international organization made up of completely different races and species.

You're thinking of an Empire, but using "fascism" because it's a loaded word.
The problem is that IF the Alliance has a SINGLE king it is NOT an Alliance, it IS a NATION. A nation whose leader has gained power due to military strength, and who makes the purpose of that nation military strength and mobilization.


As Varian is the High King of the Alliance, the Alliance is a nation, and that nation's system of government is fascist, and Varian is its fascist leader.
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  #262  
Old 09-22-2012, 07:16 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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At least then the Alliance will get some neat uniforms for once.
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

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Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #263  
Old 09-22-2012, 07:16 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
The problem is that IF the Alliance has a SINGLE king it is NOT an Alliance, it IS a NATION. A nation whose leader has gained power due to military strength, and who makes the purpose of that nation military strength and mobilization.
So because NATO has a secretary general, it's a nation?

And if you say "But it said High KING" then that means that this is all bullshit semantic arguing.

Heck, even the definition of "High King" isn't absolutist, it's just a King who presides over other kings.
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  #264  
Old 09-22-2012, 07:21 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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Seeing as Omacron just got finished with working with CDev and has all that delicious insider knowledge, I'm inclined to think his interpretation is correct here.
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  #265  
Old 09-22-2012, 07:21 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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So because NATO has a secretary general, it's a nation?

And if you say "But it said High KING" then that means that this is all bullshit semantic arguing.

Heck, even the definition of "High King" isn't absolutist, it's just a King who presides over other kings.
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  #266  
Old 09-22-2012, 07:21 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Seeing as Omacron just got finished with working with CDev and has all that delicious insider knowledge, I'm inclined to think his interpretation is correct here.
I didn't know that Blizzard Cdev was a Political Sciences institution.
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  #267  
Old 09-22-2012, 07:24 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
As Varian is the High King of the Alliance, the Alliance is a nation,
This part is the problem for me. I don't care as much whether a Warcraft leader's power borders on totalitarian---I care when so many independent nations and races get lumped together just so Blizzard doesn't have to work as hard to tell a story.

It's just like lumping all of the religious beliefs under the naaru, and all of the magic systems under whatever the prime magic turns out to be... only this one has to do with politics.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 09-22-2012 at 07:26 PM..
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  #268  
Old 09-22-2012, 07:27 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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But here is the thing. For fascists, it's the State, not the nation that determines themselves. If we look at Benito Mussolini's The Doctrine of Fascism and let is be clear, Mussonlini is the father of fascism like Marx is the father of socialism, pay attention to these lines in particaluar:

"In so far as it is embodied in a State, this higher personality becomes a nation. It is not the nation which generates the State; that is an antiquated naturalistic concept which afforded a basis for XIXth century publicity in favor of national governments. Rather is it the State which creates the nation, conferring volition and therefore real life on a people made aware of their moral unity.

The right to national independence does not arise from any merely literary and idealistic form of self-consciousness; still less from a more or less passive and unconscious de facto situation, but from an active, self-conscious, political will expressing itself in action and ready to prove its rights. It arises, in short, from the existence, at least in fieri, of a State. Indeed, it is the State which, as the expression of a universal ethical will, creates the right to national independence.

A nation, as expressed in the State, is a living, ethical entity only in so far as it is progressive. Inactivity is death. Therefore the State is not only Authority which governs and confers legal form and spiritual value on individual wills, but it is also Power which makes its will felt and respected beyond its own frontiers, thus affording practical proof of the universal character of the decisions necessary to ensure its development. This implies organization and expansion, potential if not actual. Thus the State equates itself to the will of man, whose development cannot he checked by obstacles and which, by achieving self-expression, demonstrates its infinity."


This can be summoned up in one of his most famous statements:

Quote:
"All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state."
Essentially, based upon Mussonlini's word, it's the State that creates the nation. Whatever the State says the nation is, the nation is. So if the Alliance is the State, then the nations are whatever the State says that those nations are.
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  #269  
Old 09-22-2012, 07:29 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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The Alliance isn't a state until member nations are forbidden from leaving it and this is enforced militarily. Then it becomes an empire.

Appointing a head of the organization from the heads of state who are members doesn't suddenly make it fascist.
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  #270  
Old 09-22-2012, 07:53 PM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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I figured the High King just made him first among Equals and gave him the authority to command the armies of other nations (so that there is a more unified front).

Stormwind is the strongest power in the Alliance, so it's natural that the leader of the Alliance comes from it. It's not like he's just being declared Lord of the Alliance and All it's lands and can do whatever he want with the internal politics.

From everything we've seen or heard so far, all it's going to be used for is for military stuff. We won't see Lion Banners hanging from Darnassus or Stormwind Soldiers patrolling the Exodar. It's not going to be the same as a Warchief.

In any military situation, there needs to be a clear chain of command. We don't want Moira causing problems with Ironforges armies, or a more inexperienced leader in combat like Gelbin making shots countermanding Varian's.

Velen also isn't a combat leader. And I'm sure Varian would take Tyrande or Shandris' council if it was offered.

Everybody this blowing it so out of proportion, like Varian is going to build statues of himself in Darnassus and hang Stormwind Flags in everyone elses capitals.

Everybody, take a deep breath! It's not the end of the world!
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So many deluded people think their rotting Waifuchief cares for them and their faction, when every scrap of internalized narrative has made it clear for years that to Sylvanas, the entirety of the Horde - including her own people - is nothing more than a shitton of bodies to stack between herself and her final death.

And all it takes is a tactically calculated "for the Horde" rallying the troops to make them all think "OMG she really does care!"
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  #271  
Old 09-22-2012, 08:01 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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I didn't know that Blizzard Cdev was a Political Sciences institution.
This doesn't exactly help your argument.
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  #272  
Old 09-22-2012, 08:13 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Found that blue post I was tryign to find earlier. Hat tip to Ferlion since it was his question that Zarhym was answering.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...329?page=6#104

And even the High King idea (which frankly shatters what many feel is the thematic of an Alliance) seems to support this idea.

Similar to what I said about the Horde above, the Alliance formed an allegiance around human kingdoms. If you're suggesting they're thematically better served by a republic or democracy, Azeroth lore says otherwise.


This is what he said about the Horde:

We're not going out of our way to ensure they're always the ones in charge. But that's been the natural progression since the Horde were founded more or less under absolute rule by the most powerful chief of the most powerful orc clan.
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  #273  
Old 09-22-2012, 08:18 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Found that blue post I was tryign to find earlier. Hat tip to Ferlion since it was his question that Zarhym was answering.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...329?page=6#104

And even the High King idea (which frankly shatters what many feel is the thematic of an Alliance) seems to support this idea.

Similar to what I said about the Horde above, the Alliance formed an allegiance around human kingdoms. If you're suggesting they're thematically better served by a republic or democracy, Azeroth lore says otherwise.


This is what he said about the Horde:

We're not going out of our way to ensure they're always the ones in charge. But that's been the natural progression since the Horde were founded more or less under absolute rule by the most powerful chief of the most powerful orc clan.
Gah, he totally answered something I didn't ask there. Like, the Alliance was meant to be separate nations, and the "lore of Azeroth" does indeed support that.

Of course it shouldn't be a democracy or republic. It' should be a damn Alliance.
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  #274  
Old 09-22-2012, 08:28 PM
Sports72Xtrm Sports72Xtrm is offline

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No. The greatest check was Onyxia's magic preventing King Varian from exercising the full extent of his supreme executive power. Varian's return also likely probably caused him to further restrict the powers of the House of Nobles to place checks on him.
Jaina's theory supports the Varian was the only one Onyxia couldn't magically oppress until his wife died where he feel into a state of depression. Part of the job of Stormwind monarchy is listening to the concerns of his constituents and finding harmony and solutions for it. If he exercised absolute authority he wouldn't have condemned Moira's way of ruling Ironforge.
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  #275  
Old 09-22-2012, 08:35 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Found that blue post I was tryign to find earlier. Hat tip to Ferlion since it was his question that Zarhym was answering.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...329?page=6#104

And even the High King idea (which frankly shatters what many feel is the thematic of an Alliance) seems to support this idea.

Similar to what I said about the Horde above, the Alliance formed an allegiance around human kingdoms. If you're suggesting they're thematically better served by a republic or democracy, Azeroth lore says otherwise.


This is what he said about the Horde:

We're not going out of our way to ensure they're always the ones in charge. But that's been the natural progression since the Horde were founded more or less under absolute rule by the most powerful chief of the most powerful orc clan.
Put enough monkeys in a room with a typewriter, and they'll eventually write Warcraft lore.
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