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View Poll Results: High King of the Alliance
Bad Idea 38 30.16%
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  #1251  
Old 11-12-2012, 12:00 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Call of duty 1 View Post
And Stormwind is a superpower only because of it's powerful and versatile military as well as diplomacy, not because of numbers from Lordaeron. It's economy is in shatters, and it's lands are constantly under threat. If Stormwind didn't have a good military and if humans weren't diplomatic, it wouldn't have been a superpower, nor would Stormwind lead the Alliance.
Actually it probably still shouldn't be a superpower, since its king has historically been either absent or not very diplomatic at all, and its powerful military is always deployed somewhere else instead of securing and protecting its own lands.
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  #1252  
Old 11-12-2012, 12:04 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Lordaeron lost a large number of Humans, which I'd say is equal to what Stormwind lost during the First and Second War. And Stormwind is a bastion for all of Humanity, meaning that it has refugees from all Kingdoms, not just Lordaeron, but it is highly unlikely that they outnumber the natives.
Lordaeron did lose a huge number of humans, but there were three large groups of known survivors (Those with Jaina, those with Uther, and those with Garithos) as well as the fact that the Alliance and the Silver Hand were continuing to operate in Lordaeron for a very long time after its fall. The Argents and even some Scarlets would help any survivors left. Humanity was never truly purged from Lordaeron.

By contrast, the only ones confirmed to have fled Stormwind successfully are Lothar's refugees, which numbered only a few hundred ships, and even then in Tides of Darkness the number of refugees is portrayed as so small that Southshore alone can handle them.

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And Stormwind is a superpower only because of it's powerful and versatile military as well as diplomacy, not because of numbers from Lordaeron. It's economy is in shatters, and it's lands are constantly under threat. If Stormwind didn't have a good military and if humans weren't diplomatic, it wouldn't have been a superpower, nor would Stormwind lead the Alliance.
Population is of HUGE importance to the economy of a state. Canada has a population as educated and capable as the United States and controls more land but they have barely a fraction of the population. That's the main difference.
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  #1253  
Old 11-12-2012, 12:47 AM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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Today i learned that the old beaten and tired argument over the pile of rubble formerly known as Lordaeron is now magically Stormwind, a place that is completely different than said pile of rubble formerly known as Lordaeron.

That and humanity has no heroes. Well they have Varian but hes apparently not good enough to be a hero of humanity since we are still moaning and groaning about him being the official Alliance leader in all things military.

Well we have Tirion, hes a cool guy eh kills lich kings and doesn't afraid of anything. Oh wait he's neutral and we all hate neutral heroes who get shit done because they make our favorite faction aligned heroes (Who do nothing at all) out to be a bunch of incompetent morons. What with their power to see things in a bigger picture and all.

Well i don't know what to do about this problem about human heroes. If only CDev had the balls to actually create an interesting new human hero then that would be good. Then again its probably going to be yet another old man so it'll be a tremendous disappointment.

It would be along the lines of Turalyon suddenly making an appearance. That's right. humanity is in such a sorry state people are betting it all on Turalyon, the most beta of all paladins to ever exist, to come out of nowhere and magically make things better.

So yeah Call of Duty 1 is right about one thing, Stormwind sort of needs its own lore and it's getting that lore in the present World of Warcraft era.

But the problem is that people are obsessing over doomed kingdoms such as Lordaeron, Gilneas, Stromgarde, Kul'Tiras, Dalaran and Alterac as well as the deceased old men associated with those doomed kingdoms.

Instead of focusing on Stormwind which is pretty much the remainder of humanity as a whole. So that's why ole Varian is getting some development and taking the heroes journey to become a good leader. But like i said earlier, its obviously not adequate enough.
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  #1254  
Old 11-12-2012, 12:58 AM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Because after the First and Second wars there would be a very small amount of native Stormwinders left. That combined with the fact that FAR more people got out of Lordaeron than got out of Stormwind and the fact that Stormwind is suddenly a global superpower says to me that most of its population is from Lordaeron.
You keep thinking that.
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  #1255  
Old 11-12-2012, 01:08 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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You keep thinking that.
I will.
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  #1256  
Old 11-12-2012, 01:46 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Because after the First and Second wars there would be a very small amount of native Stormwinders left. That combined with the fact that FAR more people got out of Lordaeron than got out of Stormwind and the fact that Stormwind is suddenly a global superpower says to me that most of its population is from Lordaeron.
I don't know if many of you know of the exodus of the Serbs during WWI, but basically the entire military and quite a few civilians got pushed out of the country by the invading Germans/Austrians/Bulgarians and they had to make a dangerous journey across desolate mountains to Greece where they recuperated and fought their way back and liberated the country.

Now the reason I mention this is that the story is quite similar to Stormwind's in the First War, and therefore I would suggest that the circumstances are similar. In the real life case of my country even though the army and many civilians fled, the majority stayed and hid. And just like the orcs the soldiers of that time were merciless and murdered all they could, so it makes a very compelling analogy.

So that is why I think that most Stormwinders hid in the mountains and other places while the orcs controlled the fertile lowground that they were interested in the first place.
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  #1257  
Old 11-12-2012, 07:39 AM
Sports72Xtrm Sports72Xtrm is offline

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Actually it probably still shouldn't be a superpower, since its king has historically been either absent or not very diplomatic at all, and its powerful military is always deployed somewhere else instead of securing and protecting its own lands.
Why do people think Stormwind can't protect their own lands? By the end of the zones, Keeshan and Troteman are able to repel the Blackrock Orcs, go to their own home turf and cripple them so bad that most of them went went to Garrosh for help. Westfall Brigade trapped the Defias in the Deadmines and killed everyone. Duskwood took care of that rouge necromancer. And the Gurabashi Trolls have been crippled for a long time, first in Vanilla, and again in the Rise of Zandalari. Stormwind is the most dominant power in the Southern Kingdoms and they've been able to kill all their rivals.
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  #1258  
Old 11-12-2012, 08:04 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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That and humanity has no heroes. Well they have Varian but hes apparently not good enough to be a hero of humanity since we are still moaning and groaning about him being the official Alliance leader in all things military.
Humanity isn't the Alliance.

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Well we have Tirion, hes a cool guy eh kills lich kings and doesn't afraid of anything. Oh wait he's neutral and we all hate neutral heroes who get shit done because they make our favorite faction aligned heroes (Who do nothing at all) out to be a bunch of incompetent morons. What with their power to see things in a bigger picture and all.
The only reason anyone in the game world ever does anything is because of Blizzard. Rather than focusing on developing Alliance/Horde heroes and having them take the fight to the Lich King, Blizzard just makes neutral people do all the heavy lifting and saves the A/H for the "petty" story. If people are lucky Blizzard might do something like the Jaina/Sylvanas thing in the ICC 5-mans.

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But the problem is that people are obsessing over doomed kingdoms such as Lordaeron, Gilneas, Stromgarde, Kul'Tiras, Dalaran and Alterac as well as the deceased old men associated with those doomed kingdoms.
Some people like those other kingdoms. It's also not their fault that Blizzard's method of making Stormwind interesting is "kill off everyone else and thus make Stormwind the most interesting by default".

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Instead of focusing on Stormwind which is pretty much the remainder of humanity as a whole. So that's why ole Varian is getting some development and taking the heroes journey to become a good leader. But like i said earlier, its obviously not adequate enough.
He's still not going to be a good leader, however, since he'll do nothing to actually ensure the Horde doesn't threaten the Alliance again after Garrosh's death. Not to mention his "hero's journey" seems to consist of Blizzard duct-taping the idiot ball to the other leaders' hands.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.

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  #1259  
Old 11-12-2012, 08:33 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Humanity is the Alliance.
Fixed that for you.

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Why do people think Stormwind can't protect their own lands? By the end of the zones, Keeshan and Troteman are able to repel the Blackrock Orcs, go to their own home turf and cripple them so bad that most of them went went to Garrosh for help. Westfall Brigade trapped the Defias in the Deadmines and killed everyone. Duskwood took care of that rouge necromancer. And the Gurabashi Trolls have been crippled for a long time, first in Vanilla, and again in the Rise of Zandalari. Stormwind is the most dominant power in the Southern Kingdoms and they've been able to kill all their rivals.
Because we see more of the Stormwind military outside of Stormwind then in Stormwind lands. And yes, the SW military wasn't effective in Vanilla because of Onyxia witholding forces from the rest of Stormwind, but after Varian came back in Wrath, then that shouldn't be an issue. But it is.

That's the point that ARM was making. Stormwind is suppose to have the biggest and best army in the entire Alliance. Yet they are too busy using to fight elsewhere instead of protecting it's own lands, so you get the situations where they farm it out to the locals, or ignore them.

Where was the Stormwind military in all of this? In all three of the zones we don't see the Stormwind military. We just see Stormwind farming it out to other people because their military is too busy fighting in non-Stormwind lands like Twilight Highlands/Lordaeron.

Stormwind had to farm out the protection of Lakeshire to Troteman because they evidently couldn't protect them. Redridge has had problems with the Blackrock orcs since Vanilla and the Stormwind military hadn't shown up and instead farmed it out to Troteman.

Westfall Brigade hasn't shown itself to be very capable. They got their brand new castle burned down by a resurgent Defias Brotherhood that no one saw coming. Then farmed it out to the players to finish the job. The Westfall Brigade didn't kill the Defias Brotherhood. That was entirely the players. Don't see how the Defias were trapped in the Deadmines, because of that huge door right next to the final boss and not to mention the exit that all of the players use.

Duskwood? What has Stormwind done with Duskwood? They don't go into Duskwood. They have left Duskwood alone and left it's defense up to the citizens of Darkshire, despite the people complaining about how they wish that Stormwind would protect them. Heck, the Gilneans are doing more to protect Duskwood, curing the worgen population and removing them as the big threat, then Stormwind is.

STV has far more of a Horde presence then a Stormwind presence. If Stormwind wants to take credit for that then they better acknowledge that the Horde has had a huge hand in protecting STV as well.
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  #1260  
Old 11-12-2012, 10:36 AM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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You keep thinking that.
Even if I disagree with him on this, he has lore to back his claim up unlike you.
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  #1261  
Old 11-12-2012, 10:39 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Because after the First and Second wars there would be a very small amount of native Stormwinders left. That combined with the fact that FAR more people got out of Lordaeron than got out of Stormwind and the fact that Stormwind is suddenly a global superpower says to me that most of its population is from Lordaeron.
It says to me that Blizzard makes up population numbers as it goes along.

Because if we apply your same criteria to the Horde (and the numbers we see in the Warcraft III introduction), then the orcs should have trouble keeping their numbers in the triple digits.
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  #1262  
Old 11-12-2012, 11:04 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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It says to me that Blizzard makes up population numbers as it goes along.

Because if we apply your same criteria to the Horde (and the numbers we see in the Warcraft III introduction), then the orcs should have trouble keeping their numbers in the triple digits.
Pretty much this.

How many Lordaeron survivors fled with Jaina?
How many Lordaeron survivors left with Uther and ended up in SW?
How many Lordaeron survivors survived the death of Garithos and Sylvanas' purge of his men?
How many Lordaeron survivors survived Arthas' purges, as shown in WC3?

How many Lordaeron survivors actually ended up in SW?
How many Lordaeron survivors stayed in Lordaeron?

We don't have hard numbers for any of those. We don't know how many survived. All we have is conjecture and speculation.
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:08 AM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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I don't know if many of you know of the exodus of the Serbs during WWI, but basically the entire military and quite a few civilians got pushed out of the country by the invading Germans/Austrians/Bulgarians and they had to make a dangerous journey across desolate mountains to Greece where they recuperated and fought their way back and liberated the country.

Now the reason I mention this is that the story is quite similar to Stormwind's in the First War, and therefore I would suggest that the circumstances are similar. In the real life case of my country even though the army and many civilians fled, the majority stayed and hid. And just like the orcs the soldiers of that time were merciless and murdered all they could, so it makes a very compelling analogy.

So that is why I think that most Stormwinders hid in the mountains and other places while the orcs controlled the fertile lowground that they were interested in the first place.
On top of this, there's also the possibility that some found refuge in Ironforge (which didn't fall to the Orcs the entire war).
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  #1264  
Old 11-12-2012, 11:23 AM
Sports72Xtrm Sports72Xtrm is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Because we see more of the Stormwind military outside of Stormwind then in Stormwind lands. And yes, the SW military wasn't effective in Vanilla because of Onyxia witholding forces from the rest of Stormwind, but after Varian came back in Wrath, then that shouldn't be an issue. But it is.

That's the point that ARM was making. Stormwind is suppose to have the biggest and best army in the entire Alliance. Yet they are too busy using to fight elsewhere instead of protecting it's own lands, so you get the situations where they farm it out to the locals, or ignore them.
That's what armies do. They go overseas to fight bigger threats so they don't threaten the homeland. You've seen Garrosh and what he did to Theramore. And Varian has a duty to the Alliance. It's like what King Varian was trying to explain to his nobles in his short story, Blood of Our Fathers, these Alliance wars that he led to victory protected the kingdom and all of Azeroth in the long run. I don't understand how people still don't get that. Should they just let Deathwing and Garrosh destroy or conquer the world?

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Where was the Stormwind military in all of this? In all three of the zones we don't see the Stormwind military. We just see Stormwind farming it out to other people because their military is too busy fighting in non-Stormwind lands like Twilight Highlands/Lordaeron.


Stormwind had to farm out the protection of Lakeshire to Troteman because they evidently couldn't protect them. Redridge has had problems with the Blackrock orcs since Vanilla and the Stormwind military hadn't shown up and instead farmed it out to Troteman.
Stormwind is usually at peace. It's just ingame, the player shows up in a time of chaos. Like when the Blackrocks used the Cataclysm to find a crack in Stormwind's natural defenses: the Elwynn mountains, to invade Northshire. Storwind was just recently attacked by the Cataclysm and Deathwing yet they still managed to rally and beat their invaders back and neutralize them in the end. Goldshire and Redridge had Stormwind guards doing their duty. And Westfall and Bravo Company had the full support of Varian. Troteman and Bravo Company is Stormwind military. Those people at Keeshan post, that Seige tank Keeshan used to plow through the Blackrock orcs, all funded by Varian. They did their duty as Stormwind military and protected those regions. Don't say Varian didn't do anything.

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Westfall Brigade hasn't shown itself to be very capable. They got their brand new castle burned down by a resurgent Defias Brotherhood that no one saw coming. Then farmed it out to the players to finish the job. The Westfall Brigade didn't kill the Defias Brotherhood. That was entirely the players. Don't see how the Defias were trapped in the Deadmines, because of that huge door right next to the final boss and not to mention the exit that all of the players use.
The players under the orders and strategies of Lt. Horatio Lane and the Westfall Brigade neutralized the Defias. They uncovered their schemes and then they killed them all. Problem solve. The players are an extended arm of the Stormwind military.

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Duskwood? What has Stormwind done with Duskwood? They don't go into Duskwood. They have left Duskwood alone and left it's defense up to the citizens of Darkshire, despite the people complaining about how they wish that Stormwind would protect them. Heck, the Gilneans are doing more to protect Duskwood, curing the worgen population and removing them as the big threat, then Stormwind is.
Duskwood was better off as they had their own independent police force that Varian didn't even conscript to fight in the Horde war. Plus he sent them the player as I said, are an extension of the Stormwind military as they are deputized by the NPCs and is a one man army in itself.

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STV has far more of a Horde presence then a Stormwind presence. If Stormwind wants to take credit for that then they better acknowledge that the Horde has had a huge hand in protecting STV as well.
Maybe it was the Horde that stopped them, maybe it was the Alliance. Point is, they're dead and they didn't even breacheStormwind lands.
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  #1265  
Old 11-12-2012, 11:48 AM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Even if I disagree with him on this, he has lore to back his claim up unlike you.
Not really. All he has is speculation and conjecture.
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  #1266  
Old 11-12-2012, 12:50 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Not really. All he has is speculation and conjecture.
I'm not going to argue his position for him because I largely disagree with him, but he has provided lore to back of his stance. Yes it involves conjecture and speculation, but so does the other side of the argument.
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:51 PM
Apophis Apophis is offline

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I'm not going to argue his position for him because I largely disagree with him, but he has provided lore to back of his stance. Yes it involves conjecture and speculation, but so does the other side of the argument.
The difference is however that "the other side" doesn't state their conjectures/speculations about this particular subject as fact.

Without concrete population numbers/facts about the populations this argument will probably keep on re-surfacing every once in a while.
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:55 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Fojar still has no motive to threat his conjeture as a fact though.

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We do know a lot more about Lordaeron, like the fact that it was the most religious kingdom, we know that it's people celebrated Hallow's End, we know what happened to it in the Third War, and we know a lot about it's relations with other races before it's destruction. About Stormwind, on the other hand, we know little, besides the fact that it is a versatile kingdom. We don't know of it's pre-Third War relations with other races like the High Elves, we know that during the Third War, they probably sent a few soldiers, and we know that probably Onyxia was manipulating Stormwind during that time, but we know none of that in detail. Why the hell do people in Stormwind revere Lordaeron's heroes more than their own? There is not a single statue of Lothar in the city, and instead, people put up statues of Uther there. Uther may have been great, but he was Lordaeronian. Lothar has a single statue, built far off in the Burning Steppes.

So basically what you're saying that what we know of Lordaeron is: that it was a religious kingdom (that for you somehow counts more than knowing that SW is a versatile kingdom), that it celebrated Hallows End (and for some reason it getting carried down to SW doesn't count for you). We may not know about their exterior politics but we still know more about their rulers, inner politics and economy than what we know of Lordaeron.
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Old 11-12-2012, 02:14 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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The difference is however that "the other side" doesn't state their conjectures/speculations about this particular subject as fact.

Without concrete population numbers/facts about the populations this argument will probably keep on re-surfacing every once in a while.
But that isn't true. People state that Stormwind is primarily made up of Azerothians rather than Lordaerinians all the time.

I'm done defending his position.
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Old 11-12-2012, 02:20 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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So basically what you're saying that what we know of Lordaeron is: that it was a religious kingdom (that for you somehow counts more than knowing that SW is a versatile kingdom), that it celebrated Hallows End (and for some reason it getting carried down to SW doesn't count for you). We may not know about their exterior politics but we still know more about their rulers, inner politics and economy than what we know of Lordaeron.

I remember when Azeroth-Stormwind was a religious kingdom. They had their own Abbey in Northshire. I hear it was rebuilt.

Their clerics developed an Invisibility Spell that was specifically designed for confession--keeping the penitent anonymous from the cleric. Mages later learned this power for their own designs. Did Lordaeron have a high clerical population, before the Second War brought about the paladins? I have no idea.

There seem to be many types of Healing in Warcraft now, but the healing wielded by Azeroth-Stormwind Clerics used a distinct method--it took the injuries of the targeted victim and spread them out through the whole of mankind, so that by everyone bearing that load the injury would be insignificant.

This was back when Archbishop Alonsus Faol and Uther Lightbringer were natives of Azeroth-Stormwind, of course. The statue of Uther and the plaque about Faol made a lot more sense to me, before I realized the retcon.

I'm not a huge fan of Azeroth-Stormwind as the WoW designers seem to be, but it does hold a special place in my retro gullet.
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  #1271  
Old 11-12-2012, 03:01 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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There seem to be many types of Healing in Warcraft now, but the healing wielded by Azeroth-Stormwind Clerics used a distinct method--it took the injuries of the targeted victim and spread them out through the whole of mankind, so that by everyone bearing that load the injury would be insignificant.
Wow, that's pretty stupid.
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  #1272  
Old 11-12-2012, 03:02 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Wow, that's pretty stupid.
Yeah, maybe.
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  #1273  
Old 11-12-2012, 03:39 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
He's still not going to be a good leader, however, since he'll do nothing to actually ensure the Horde doesn't threaten the Alliance again after Garrosh's death.
And what exactly should he do? Kill them all? Install a puppet government? Surely oppressing them will make sure that there will never be another war!
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  #1274  
Old 11-12-2012, 04:15 PM
Blayze Blayze is offline

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Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon View Post
Wow, that's pretty stupid.
Even more so when you realise that all it would have taken was a single illness, spread in that manner, to infect every human on the planet.
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  #1275  
Old 11-12-2012, 04:54 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon View Post
Wow, that's pretty stupid.
Would have made the Plague of Undeath all the more effective.

Can you imagine a foolish priest trying to "cure" the taint of the Scourge, and by doing so, infects all of humanity?
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Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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