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  #76  
Old 12-04-2013, 08:35 AM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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The simple fact is, back in vanilla, TBC, and even in the most part wrath, blizzard did seem to care, but then so did the community.

Its no mistake, blizzard clearly has changed attitude towards the game in the last 4-5 years, but then so has the audience they are trying to appeal to.

People don't care as much about the important little details, people just want to speed though the game and get rewarded at the end. So much time spent on building lore characters comes to nothing when nobody cares about it, so the developers just gave up and do whatever the fuck they want now.
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  #77  
Old 12-04-2013, 09:50 AM
Anasterian Anasterian is offline

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There have been dozens of threads with similar topics to this all over these and the official forums. The consensus always seems to be the same. Yes, Blizz still cares. They still put a lot of work into their game mechanically and lorewise. If they didn't, they would not refine their gameplay every single expansion, they would not have fixed their Cata errors with MoP, they would not have put in the work to improve their game period.

Plenty of people didn't like Pandaria, but you cannot say Blizz didn't put a lot of work into it. They made their mistakes in Cata, where they largely didn't portray things as they had wanted to. When Metzen mentioned during Blizzcon that Thrall was 'having an inner cataclysm' and that that was a story, I thought to myself "that sounds pretty cool. I wonder why they never d--- oh...." They fixed that with MoP. It was clear in all the distinct and fascinating cultures, the mythologies and the sheer scale of it all, that Pandaria was a pretty epic locale. The fact that they've been releasing short stories on their website, the little in-game bits like the Lorewalker scenes, the storylines of 5.0-5.2... all of which I found thoroughly enjoyable while on both factions.

Blizz is putting the work in. They are creating a more nuanced universe through their gameplay now in regards to the lore.

...here's the thing, though. We're older. We're different people. Our standards and our sensibilities have changed. Blizzard's haven't as much. They still tell their stories the way they have before, but players want, no, expect, no, DEMAND more from them now. It's almost unfair to them, IMHO.

The fact the playerbase is a bunch of demanding, whiny fucks doesn't help.
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  #78  
Old 12-04-2013, 10:09 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Originally Posted by Anasterian View Post
they would not have fixed their Cata errors with MoP
Is that why WoD takes away most of what made WoW better after Vanilla, including flight?
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  #79  
Old 12-04-2013, 10:52 AM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Is that why WoD takes away most of what made WoW better after Vanilla, including flight?
Flight I think is a problem of the community. Before WoD, there were tons of posts by the vocal minority about how flying ruined the game, made the world smaller, eliminated world PvP, etc, which increased incredibly when Ghostcrawler offhandedly mentioned he regrets Blizzard ever adding flying mounts to the game.

So, Blizzard listened to the vocal minority, again. Same thing happened with the Argent Tournament (before then there were tons of forum threads on MMO-C and the official site suggesting how cool mounted combat and a gladiator style raid in an arena with no trash would be), siege weapons, removing daily quests, and so on.
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  #80  
Old 12-04-2013, 11:07 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
Flight I think is a problem of the community. Before WoD, there were tons of posts by the vocal minority about how flying ruined the game, made the world smaller, eliminated world PvP, etc, which increased incredibly when Ghostcrawler offhandedly mentioned he regrets Blizzard ever adding flying mounts to the game.

So, Blizzard listened to the vocal minority, again. Same thing happened with the Argent Tournament (before then there were tons of forum threads on MMO-C and the official site suggesting how cool mounted combat and a gladiator style raid in an arena with no trash would be), siege weapons, removing daily quests, and so on.
There's a thread for the flight discussion.
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  #81  
Old 12-04-2013, 11:15 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
Flight I think is a problem of the community. Before WoD, there were tons of posts by the vocal minority about how flying ruined the game, made the world smaller, eliminated world PvP, etc, which increased incredibly when Ghostcrawler offhandedly mentioned he regrets Blizzard ever adding flying mounts to the game.
Eh, the flight-thing is really only the worst part. It seems they have a real problem taking in feedback: not only do they rarely learn from their mistakes, they never seen to learn from their successes either. By now you'd think a company that has both the tools and infrastructure to just go ahead and ask every account once if they like a change would go ahead and use it.
And judging by how Ghostcrawler talks about flight i highly doubt that decision was based on actual player feedback - i mean, even they admit it has nothing to do with PvP or world scaling (though i don't believe them on the latter part - it's a simple fact that a world not designed for flying will basically end up with no content above a Tauren's head because no one will see it).

Quote:
So, Blizzard listened to the vocal minority, again. Same thing happened with the Argent Tournament (before then there were tons of forum threads on MMO-C and the official site suggesting how cool mounted combat and a gladiator style raid in an arena with no trash would be), siege weapons, removing daily quests, and so on.
Well to be fair they fucked up the actual mounted combat. Every time someone tells them to do something as simple as "let us use our skills on our mounts" or "give us a house to decorate and live in" they go overboard because somehow ever little gimmick in the game has to have a real "use". Why the fuck can't a player house not just BE a player house? Why does mounted combat have to use a retardedly laggy input system? And that's when they are TRYING. When they aren't they just axe features left and right even though they're basically stripping the game of four expansion's worth of data about what worked and what didn't.
If anyone of you honestly thinks my shitstorm about no flying is bad - oh boy, just you wait until the general forums get swarmed by the vast majority of silent, content players who don't read blueposts and never go online except when there's something to complain about

I'll be over here celebrating an inactive account by farming dilithium, taking the Amanda Tapping for a spin around the solar system and abusing Heartsone's windowed mode for chatting.
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  #82  
Old 12-04-2013, 11:34 AM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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I think Blizzard cares. But I do think they need to put a stronger emphasis on the "soft" elements of the game.

The story was better in Vanilla. There were epic quests for nearly every class and every profession. Hell, you had to do quests to level up fishing and first aid to max level.

The Quel'serrar quest was amazing. The Warlock and Paladin mount quests were fantastic. Things like this are really lacking at this point in the game. You had a bit of it in Wrath with the Battered Hilt questline, and I feel like they've tried to do something along those lines for the legendary cloak quest (which I haven't yet completed) - but they broke so much shit that they shouldn't have when they essentially trashed Vanilla with Cataclysm.

Now, the actual game play is FAR better these days. While I kind of miss the larger talent trees, that's about ALL that I miss from the old days. Classes were just so damned broken back then, I shudder to think about what it was like to try to tank in those days. I think overall Blizzard has done a fantastic job improving the gameplay.

But the story has suffered a bit. I don't know if they can get it back. I would LOVE to be able to do some of the old epic vanilla quests again on an alt - and I can't. THAT was the biggest mistake in Cataclysm.
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  #83  
Old 12-04-2013, 11:57 AM
Odok Odok is offline

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I'm pretty sure you can find a vocal minority to correlate with any independent design decision made by Blizzard.
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  #84  
Old 12-04-2013, 12:00 PM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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I remember having to ask people to help me kill questmobs because i couldn't kill them within the 30 seconds after which they wouldn't drop their quest item anymore. Granted the one quest in particular was in Netherstorm but i'm damn sure that happened in Classic as well.

Also: i liked the revamp... for the most part. But it's not cool to tell everyone who awesome a job it was to add 3000 new quests when 5 to 6thousand had to go to make it happen. Just... think... only updating the world in places where it would have hindered flying, not cutting that many quests, just nudging the tech in the right direction on some of the more tedious ones... i LOVE the revamp - it's pretty much the only thing that worked in that damn add on until 4.3 - but had it not eaten up all their time, 80 to 85 might not have sucked that much.

Where's Red Matter when you REALLY need it?

Oi Bolvar. Remember the Spore-head AE tanking shield? Loved that thing.
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  #85  
Old 12-04-2013, 12:30 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by Odok View Post
I'm pretty sure you can find a vocal minority to correlate with any independent design decision made by Blizzard.
There've been a couple threads about the death of twink PVP that have come up lately. There was a vocal minority (people who liked twinking in BGs combined with people who hated twinks) that got what they wanted (putting XP-locked players in a unique queue) and the end result (twinks dying off because the queues were too long) could be directly linked to the efforts of a vocal minority. So now you've got some diehard twinks saying that the unique queue should go away, while you've also got some people saying that players in Heirloom gear should be given their own queue... it's an endless cycle.

You can't please all of the people all of the time. You can please some people some of the time, but conversely, some people are always going to displeased with any particular design path chosen.

Ultimately, Blizzard is going to choose the path they feel is best for the majority of players. If the metrics are all off because no one ever participates in the community unless they've got a bone to pick, then that's a problem with the community and the nature of players, and not a problem with Blizzard's level of give-a-fuck.
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  #86  
Old 12-04-2013, 12:35 PM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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?

Oi Bolvar. Remember the Spore-head AE tanking shield? Loved that thing.
I still have it in my bank on two different characters.
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  #87  
Old 12-04-2013, 12:51 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Anasterian View Post
...here's the thing, though. We're older. We're different people. Our standards and our sensibilities have changed. Blizzard's haven't as much. They still tell their stories the way they have before, but players want, no, expect, no, DEMAND more from them now. It's almost unfair to them, IMHO.

The fact the playerbase is a bunch of demanding, whiny fucks doesn't help.
Yeah right.

That we want a story that makes internal sense is asking too much, obviously.
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  #88  
Old 12-04-2013, 12:55 PM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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It doesn't even work on someone like me. I loved 5.0. I liked 5.1, and loved 5.2 again. I don't remember getting that much birthdays in since MoP launched.
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  #89  
Old 12-04-2013, 05:39 PM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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I think they would do class quests if they're not a pain in the ass like a good chunk of vanilla quest and it feels right with the current alternate universe expansion.
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  #90  
Old 12-05-2013, 01:12 AM
Eterna Eterna is offline

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The amount of hidden lore spots, info, and little details added to Pandaria put Outland to shame imo.
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  #91  
Old 12-05-2013, 07:22 AM
Darkwind Darkwind is offline

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Originally Posted by Bolvar View Post
The story was better in Vanilla. There were epic quests for nearly every class and every profession. Hell, you had to do quests to level up fishing and first aid to max level.

The Quel'serrar quest was amazing. The Warlock and Paladin mount quests were fantastic. Things like this are really lacking at this point in the game. You had a bit of it in Wrath with the Battered Hilt questline, and I feel like they've tried to do something along those lines for the legendary cloak quest (which I haven't yet completed) - but they broke so much shit that they shouldn't have when they essentially trashed Vanilla with Cataclysm.

Now, the actual game play is FAR better these days. While I kind of miss the larger talent trees, that's about ALL that I miss from the old days. Classes were just so damned broken back then, I shudder to think about what it was like to try to tank in those days. I think overall Blizzard has done a fantastic job improving the gameplay.

But the story has suffered a bit. I don't know if they can get it back. I would LOVE to be able to do some of the old epic vanilla quests again on an alt - and I can't. THAT was the biggest mistake in Cataclysm.
I don't think the story was better, as I felt it was very disjointed until Wrath, but I will agree that the epic questlines, like the class quests, The Missing Diplomat, and Quel'Serrar, were great in Vanilla. They've added a couple of quests like that since then, including the two you mentioned and the Warlock questline, but, honestly, Pandaren philosophy opinions aside, I felt the presentation and flow of the story in MoP was far better than anything in WoW before it.

I agree on gameplay, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotal
Also: i liked the revamp... for the most part. But it's not cool to tell everyone who awesome a job it was to add 3000 new quests when 5 to 6thousand had to go to make it happen. Just... think... only updating the world in places where it would have hindered flying, not cutting that many quests, just nudging the tech in the right direction on some of the more tedious ones... i LOVE the revamp - it's pretty much the only thing that worked in that damn add on until 4.3 - but had it not eaten up all their time, 80 to 85 might not have sucked that much.
I also really enjoyed the revamp, but I didn't feel that they spent too much time working on it. I felt the problem with Cataclysm was mismanaging their assets. What they should have done was make the questlines for leveling characters, and then had daily hubs and dynamic events for max level characters in the revamped old world. I also would have preferred if they had held off on releasing Uldum and Twilight Highlands as patch endgame zones.

As it is now, the revamp is already starting to feel dated. It was the perfect time to make the world a living, changing thing, and they squandered that opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Arashi
I think they would do class quests if they're not a pain in the ass like a good chunk of vanilla quest and it feels right with the current alternate universe expansion.
Well, they just did Warlock Fel Fire. That felt like a Class quest that meant something. What would other classes get that would be similar? Gear is too transitory as a reward, while abilities would feel too mandatory.

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Originally Posted by Eterna
The amount of hidden lore spots, info, and little details added to Pandaria put Outland to shame imo.
Completely agreed. Combining the world treasures with Timeless Isle has me excited to explore Draenor. My only reservation is if the new quest system will provide enough structure to that experience so that it doesn't feel mostly aimless, like TI currently does.

Last edited by Darkwind; 12-05-2013 at 07:26 AM..
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  #92  
Old 12-05-2013, 01:33 PM
Jungleluke Jungleluke is offline

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In my eyes the story in Pandaria was one of the best WoW ever had to offer. Little tidbits everywhere, short-stories, Twitter-answers, an actual history about the races of Pandaria and so on. The faction-conflict is another thing, but it was ended in quite a good way in MoP (and almost all of the MoP-plotholes are filled, mission succeeded I guess).

They do care.

Some people are just too stubborn and let their intolerable thoughts cloud their minds.
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