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  #26  
Old 08-23-2013, 06:39 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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(Lord of the Clans made my head asplode in the first few sections and I haven't tried getting through the rest of it yet but I'm not sure I can stand the GoodDoomhammer-BadDoomhammerHorde imbalance from the days before Christie Golden knew much about lore.)
I recommend trying to get through the rest of it, since I thoroughly enjoyed the book regardless. Also, as I said in another thread, the doomhammer thing was part of the original game, and was actually really dialed down in the novel (it was just doomhammer, rather than the entire old horde minus one guy), so I wouldn't blame that one on Golden's knowledge of lore.
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Old 08-23-2013, 06:58 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I recommend trying to get through the rest of it, since I thoroughly enjoyed the book regardless. Also, as I said in another thread, the doomhammer thing was part of the original game, and was actually really dialed down in the novel (it was just doomhammer, rather than the entire old horde minus one guy), so I wouldn't blame that one on Golden's knowledge of lore.
I will, I will. I just have to... I think I just have to pretend that it's not the Warcraft universe, or something.

And it's actually not GoodDoomhammer-BadDoomhammerHorde, is it? I think maybe in the book's universe, Gul'dan kept authority over Doomhammer up to the point of the betrayal and Gul'dan's death? Because Doomhammer was warchief already when Durotan met with him in mystery-amorphous-place but Gul'dan still had the power to kill them all even though he was warchief, during the time period of generic-wartime-horde-about-to-win-while-orcs-are-in-prison-camps-and-the-human-troops-are-bored with Winston-Churchill-as-Holy-Roman-Caesar-during-the-War-of-the-Roses-who-dances-with-Cleopatra-and-it's-always-5:02 p.m. on 22 April.

Ugh, I just.... we could talk all day about the "lore" of Lord of the Clans and what did or didn't exist. Do you think there was ever a Blackhand? Where there different continents and kingdoms in this world, or was it all just a stretch of land with the Alterac Mountains on one end and Durnholde Keep on the other? If the humans were already growing bored with orc gladiator fights when Gul'dan had authority over Doomhammer, then when was... the wars between and... what's... how... doesn't fit...?

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Old 08-23-2013, 07:30 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Let me explain how it was in the game:

Orgrim, Blackhand and Durotan used to be bloodbrothers. However, the scheming Ner'zhul manipulated the former two to exile Durotan, who he considered a threat. Rend and Maim end up killing Durotan.

After the second war, the orcs were granted plots of land to live on by the humans, where they were expected to live in the confines of societal expectations (as far as I can tell, these were more like normal reservations). Acting like normal people is against the very nature of the orcs, and the fire inside them dies.

Thrall breaks out of Durnholde and away from Lieutenant Blackmoore (Taretha and sergeant don't exist in this version) starts a rebellion with Rockstar-equivalent Grom Hellscream and good ol' grampsie Orgrim. Rend and Maim are now mercenaries working for Blackmoore, and try to hunt Thrall down. Thrall, Grom and Orgrim break the shattered hand and the bleeding hollow clan out of the internment camps, with Orgrim dying due to spear through the head. Grom, Kargath and Kilrogg are convinced by Thrall to form a new horde that basically regards all humans as enemies, and they declare him warchief upon the altar of storms.

Also, zul'jin is a former bandit turned junk salesman



So Blackhand did indeed exist in the game... but in a weird way. In fact, it's Gul'dan who seems oddly absent from any game information I can find, with Ner'zhul instead filling his role.
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Old 08-23-2013, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Let me explain how it was in the game:

Orgrim, Blackhand and Durotan used to be bloodbrothers. However, the scheming Ner'zhul manipulated the former two to exile Durotan, who he considered a threat. Rend and Maim end up killing Durotan.

After the second war, the orcs were granted plots of land to live on by the humans, where they were expected to live in the confines of societal expectations (as far as I can tell, these were more like normal reservations). Acting like normal people is against the very nature of the orcs, and the fire inside them dies.

Thrall breaks out of Durnholde and away from Lieutenant Blackmoore (Taretha and sergeant don't exist in this version) starts a rebellion with Rockstar-equivalent Grom Hellscream and good ol' grampsie Orgrim. Rend and Maim are now mercenaries working for Blackmoore, and try to hunt Thrall down. Thrall, Grom and Orgrim break the shattered hand and the bleeding hollow clan out of the internment camps, with Orgrim dying due to spear through the head. Grom, Kargath and Kilrogg are convinced by Thrall to form a new horde that basically regards all humans as enemies, and they declare him warchief upon the altar of storms.

Also, zul'jin is a former bandit turned junk salesman



So Blackhand did indeed exist in the game... but in a weird way. In fact, it's Gul'dan who seems oddly absent from any game information I can find, with Ner'zhul instead filling his role.
Where did you learn for Orgrim's death? The vids I saw stopped before that. When Thrall was with the Dwarves.
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  #30  
Old 08-23-2013, 07:50 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Where did you learn for Orgrim's death? The vids I saw stopped before that. When Thrall was with the Dwarves.
Aah, was doing that one from the top of my head. Honestly, I don't recall anymore where i heard everything from. My apologies for not being a good source >.>
Looking at the screenshots, I got that part wrong. Orgrim is still around when Thrall stands on the altar of storms, but Grom wasn't there.
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Old 08-23-2013, 07:50 PM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is offline

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1.Rise of the Horde
2.The Last Guardian
3.Day of the Dragon(first warcraft book I ever read)
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And that is the Drama to being part of the Horde. There are people out there who want you dead. You honestly can’t blame them. Do you lie down and die for them? No. You enjoy the challenge. You keep your head up and move forward.
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  #32  
Old 08-23-2013, 07:56 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Let me explain how it was in the game:

Orgrim, Blackhand and Durotan used to be bloodbrothers. However, the scheming Ner'zhul manipulated the former two to exile Durotan, who he considered a threat. Rend and Maim end up killing Durotan.

After the second war, the orcs were granted plots of land to live on by the humans, where they were expected to live in the confines of societal expectations (as far as I can tell, these were more like normal reservations). Acting like normal people is against the very nature of the orcs, and the fire inside them dies.

Thrall breaks out of Durnholde and away from Lieutenant Blackmoore (Taretha and sergeant don't exist in this version) starts a rebellion with Rockstar-equivalent Grom Hellscream and good ol' grampsie Orgrim. Rend and Maim are now mercenaries working for Blackmoore, and try to hunt Thrall down. Thrall, Grom and Orgrim break the shattered hand and the bleeding hollow clan out of the internment camps, with Orgrim dying due to spear through the head. Grom, Kargath and Kilrogg are convinced by Thrall to form a new horde that basically regards all humans as enemies, and they declare him warchief upon the altar of storms.

Also, zul'jin is a former bandit turned junk salesman



So Blackhand did indeed exist in the game... but in a weird way. In fact, it's Gul'dan who seems oddly absent from any game information I can find, with Ner'zhul instead filling his role.
That's a lot of details. I've seen the Youtube videos and I remember a magazine from back in the day, but that article didn't have all of these specifics. I wish you could remember where you got them from, especially the part about Ner'zhul being the big bad instead of Gul'dan.
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  #33  
Old 08-23-2013, 07:59 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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That's a lot of details. I've seen the Youtube videos and I remember a magazine from back in the day, but that article didn't have all of these specifics. I wish you could remember where you got them from, especially the part about Ner'zhul being the big bad instead of Gul'dan.
that one I do remember http://web.archive.org/web/200306250...ard/p4_05.html
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Old 08-23-2013, 08:04 PM
Mshadowz Mshadowz is offline

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The old one was way more convoluted, but seemed more like an adventure across a fantasy world, you know?

I wish they'd make an rpg like that, following a character going across azeroth, getting into all sorts of shit, meeting locals, you know.
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Old 08-23-2013, 08:12 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Yeah, gameplay-wise, it actually seemed pretty cool (if subpar for a major studio release) to me.

Story-wise though, it gives me that uncomfortable vibe that cataclysm also does. Specifically, there's this weird thing where we're supposed to feel that orcs are good guys, but then we see stuff that suggest their very nature makes it impossible for them to co-exist peacefully.
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Old 08-23-2013, 11:31 PM
CoDimus the Staunch CoDimus the Staunch is offline

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The Last Guardian. The only Warcraft novel that I enjoyed. Medivh, Khadgar and Lothar were nice. The only person almost completely ignored was Llane.
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Old 08-24-2013, 12:52 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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I just don't get how people could ever like Arthas. I guess the first part, with the teenage romance in medieval aesthetics was kinda good because of the little tidbits of human lore it brought, but as soon as it gets to WC3? Blandest book ever. Blandest retelling that wasn't needed. If Christie wanted to do an interpretation/novelization of WC3, then she failed, and screwed up some events in the process. Why not take some singular parts of the war we already know about and let Arthas's character shine? Instead, Arthas is robbed of all character and his campaigns are just a journey from Point A to Point B.
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Old 08-24-2013, 11:25 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Story-wise though, it gives me that uncomfortable vibe that cataclysm also does. Specifically, there's this weird thing where we're supposed to feel that orcs are good guys, but then we see stuff that suggest their very nature makes it impossible for them to co-exist peacefully.
Well, this was also before "orcs are good guys" was a big thing. Keep in mind that if the Warcraft RTS games only had humans on both sides, the orcs would've probably been akin to Mongols, or Huns, or Vikings. Vikings especially in Warcraft II, what with the spiked helmets and the longboats and the pagan religion and the berserker culture.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker
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His (Odin's) men rushed forwards without armour, were as mad as dogs or wolves, bit their shields, and were strong as bears or wild oxen, and killed people at a blow, but neither fire nor iron told upon them. This was called Berserkergang.
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This fury, which was called berserkergang, occurred not only in the heat of battle, but also during laborious work. Men who were thus seized performed things which otherwise seemed impossible for human power. This condition is said to have begun with shivering, chattering of the teeth, and chill in the body, and then the face swelled and changed its colour. With this was connected a great hot-headedness, which at last gave over into a great rage, under which they howled as wild animals, bit the edge of their shields, and cut down everything they met without discriminating between friend or foe. When this condition ceased, a great dulling of the mind and feebleness followed, which could last for one or several days.
And we RTS fans literally played as Vikings and Mongols and Huns and Goths in Age of Kings (1999) and its expansion (2000), and Assyrians and Hittites in Age of Empires beforehand (1997). Warcraft's main rival, Command and Conquer (1995) and Red Alert (1996), had a cultist terrorist organization and a Stalinist Soviet Union as their protagonist villains, but they each had understandable motivations. Even with Starcraft, I don't think anyone was wondering how the Zerg would be "redeemed" as "good guys".

That's why I can totally understand if Warcraft Adventures: Lord of the Clans was more about empowering the orcs again, as opposed to redeeming them from some sinful action to make them "heroic". The orcs had won one game while the humans had won the next two; it was the orcs' turn to win again! How many Viking or Pirate movies do you see where the roguish protagonist can't settle down, but has to instead continue his life of warfare (for the former) or high-seas crime (for the latter)? Yet we cheer Erik or Jack Sparrow on regardless.

If I were to start a thread in the general forums about the Mongols or Huns being godless monsters, or about the Spartans being depraved for leaving their weaker infants to die to the elements, I'd probably be lectured about cultural relativism, about how different societies have different values, and how it's difficult for us to judge what is "good" to cultures so alien to our own. This alien goodness was so much of what embodied the orcs of the first two Warcrafts, of The Last Guardian, and to some extent Day of the Dragon. Garona Halforcen and Nekros Skullcrusher are some of the most interesting characters in their respective novels, and it is easy to empathize with their personal and cultural motivations.

Along with militant expansionism and violence, another theme of the Horde was their fierce independence. This is beautifully displayed in The Last Guardian. Early in that book, we see Medivh and Khadgar discuss the dangers of summoning daemons, how so many who summon them wind up killed by the very daemons they summoned, proof of how foolish they were to think they could control them. And yet, we eventually discover that Medivh-Sargeras has summoned his own beings to the world of Azeroth to do his bidding... the orcs... and that he plans to control the orcish clans through their warlocks.

The problem with this plan?
1) The warlocks have their own agenda, and we see Gul'dan has already attempted to assassinate Medivh and steal the secrets he guards. Medivh-Sargeras is confident he can make them see reason, but we have no guarantee the threats on his life won't stop.
2) Even if the warlocks were Sargeras's willing servants, only one of the clans (Stormreavers in TLG, though this causes lore issues) respects their warlocks enough to put them in authority positions. We see this from the Bleeding Hollow Grunt who ridicules Garona for her clan's habit of following their warlocks.

And ultimately Sargeras, the daemon who presumed to summon an orc army to destroy a human army, is killed by two humans and one orc, while another orc pillages his mind for the treasures he promised in the dark bargain--a bargain that the orc warlocks likely only agreed to so they could get close enough to take what they want themselves. You want a subversion of Tolkien? How about having the big bad demonlord unable to control his minions, and that being his undoing? Yes... Reign of Chaos supposedly had a huge step forward in racial character development when the orcs turned against the demon flunky Mannoroth, but long before then they had already turned against Sargeras himself.

I think that's why Warcraft III's historical perspective on the Horde turned me away. If the Horde wanted to repent of violent warfare and step into a new age of peaceful honor, that's all well and good. But the main focus of that story wasn't discovering peace... it was discovering independence. Freedom was the culminating theme... "You have freed us all" was the summarizing statement. But the only problem here was that the Orcs of the first two games were ALREADY FREE, they were already independent agents. When your warriors tore through Stormwind Keep or Lordaeron's capital, you weren't delivering a new world to your demon overlords - you were acting for the orcs themselves. Warcraft III had to rewrite history so that this Horde we knew and loved never existed, turning them instead into the same old tired Tolkien cliche of being the servants to a greater threat. That's why Warcraft III's Horde didn't impress me when it "subverted traditional orcs". It had to rewrite the old story so that they never had independence, just so Thrall and Grom could win it back for them.

And while gaining independence has been a consistent theme for the New Horde, the other "questionable cultural themes" are a little harder to let go. We get different answers about whether war is a bad thing. We get different answers about whether the berserkergang is a bad thing - the Lord of the Clans novel, for example, had Durotan reflect how slipping into bloodlust was an honorable orcish trait, while BtDP has Grom struggle to keep from falling into the same frenzied state. And in Warcraft III and WoW, we have them as abilities.


Familiar picture? Scroll up.

It's still just as honorable for a New Horde warrior to die in battle with axe in hand as it is for a Viking marauder or an Old Horde Grunt. And in this New Horde we still have Goblins, who are equal to the levels of comedic evil they always were.... and the Forsaken, whose evil seems even more villainous because of the modern feel it often has (biological warfare and death camps).

Back to the topic of the novels, I feel that time has healed a lot of these wounds with me. Tides of Darkness shows that Doomhammer's Horde is not sacrificing before Demon Gates but is instead acting much like the orcs nowadays would, fighting to take new land from other people because survival and lebensraum and stuff. And even in Rise of the Horde, the majority of orcs pass through the Dark Portal because they need the resources of a new world... even in this First War time, they've stopped acting consciously as the demons' lap dogs. Only Gul'dan and his Shadow Council are in on that little secret.

And really, that's how I think it should've been presented all along. I've rambled a bit. I'll stop now.

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  #39  
Old 08-24-2013, 11:34 AM
Ku'ja Ku'ja is offline

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Read Revenge of the Sith novelization then you will find how horrible Arthas was.
Or we will see how good Arthas really was.. Seriously this is not the place to say that.

I agree if i can say it my favorites are probably every Comic the produced. The Manga had some amazing stuff in it but also some poor stuff .
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Old 08-24-2013, 11:36 AM
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Oh my goodness the chapter with Muradin, the goblin and the pastry chef in Beyond the Dark Portal is so good.
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Old 08-24-2013, 11:39 AM
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Or we will see how good Arthas really was.. Seriously this is not the place to say that.
Read it.
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Old 08-24-2013, 11:40 AM
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Read it.
Or he's already read it and actually enjoyed it. What now?
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Old 08-24-2013, 11:43 AM
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Or he's already read it and actually enjoyed it. What now?
I'm talking about the RotS novel.

I don't dislike the Arthas, it did have some good point and the overall idea is fine, but the flaw is also quite obvious. RotS novel featured a similar story but both the main character was handled much better (much darker) and the other characters got more development.

Of course, both of these two books didn't portray the leading female character well.
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Old 08-24-2013, 11:51 AM
Ku'ja Ku'ja is offline

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Or he's already read it and actually enjoyed it. What now?
I haven't read it but Slowpoke is surely making sure i never bother with attempting to advertise it in the wrong thread. I am pretty sure Star Wars has its own problems with its novels and so on. I actually really really enjoyed the Arthas book myself but i am not shocked it seems to be the Marmite of this forum.
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Old 08-24-2013, 01:20 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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@Grackle: I find your analysis clever, though I'll admit I don't entirely get the point you're trying to make. Yes, there is an element of cultural relativism, which is something I'm nearly always a fan of. However, the cultural relativism seems to be really downplayed in the game in favor of a simple role reversal of orcs and humans (new for its time, but I don't think it would have aged very well), with all orcs that are actually working with humans being either evil (rend and maim) or portrayed as wrecks.

In addition, the orcs didn't exactly lose their independence in the game. They've been stuck on reservations, not in internment camps. Sure, Thrall was treated badly, but the other orcs seemed to have a lot of freedom, maintaining their own lands, leadership and culture. As a result, the orcish spirit seems to have died just because they weren't allowed to roam free and kill people, all while the game plays up how the orcs are the good guys. That doesn't exactly sit well with me. I have no problem playing as someone with an alien mindset, but I have trouble playing as someone with an alien mindset while the game seems trying to convince me that that alien mindset is totally moral.

Plus, the continuity seems wonky.

I'll admit though, this is all based on incomplete information.



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I haven't read it but Slowpoke is surely making sure i never bother with attempting to advertise it in the wrong thread. I am pretty sure Star Wars has its own problems with its novels and so on. I actually really really enjoyed the Arthas book myself but i am not shocked it seems to be the Marmite of this forum.
Marmite == only enjoyed by a small group of people, despised by the rest?

I did actually enjoy Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, so call me australian I guess
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Old 08-24-2013, 02:00 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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@Grackle: I find your analysis clever, though I'll admit I don't entirely get the point you're trying to make. Yes, there is an element of cultural relativism, which is something I'm nearly always a fan of. However, the cultural relativism seems to be really downplayed in the game in favor of a simple role reversal of orcs and humans (new for its time, but I don't think it would have aged very well), with all orcs that are actually working with humans being either evil (rend and maim) or portrayed as wrecks.

In addition, the orcs didn't exactly lose their independence in the game. They've been stuck on reservations, not in internment camps. Sure, Thrall was treated badly, but the other orcs seemed to have a lot of freedom, maintaining their own lands, leadership and culture. As a result, the orcish spirit seems to have died just because they weren't allowed to roam free and kill people, all while the game plays up how the orcs are the good guys. That doesn't exactly sit well with me. I have no problem playing as someone with an alien mindset, but I have trouble playing as someone with an alien mindset while the game seems trying to convince me that that alien mindset is totally moral.
For most of that post I wasn't talking about Warcraft Adventures: Lord of the Clans. I was saying that Warcraft III took away the independence of the pre-WCIII Horde, so that Thrall and Grom could win their independence back in the WCIII campaign.

With your Warcraft Adventures summary, I didn't realize they were playing the orcs as "the good guys". Not with, as you say, the continual need for a conquest-based lifestyle and a necromantic breed of shamanism, even refounding the Horde on an old school Altar of Storms.
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Old 08-24-2013, 02:06 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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For most of that post I wasn't talking about Warcraft Adventures: Lord of the Clans. I was saying that Warcraft III took away the independence of the pre-WCIII Horde, so that Thrall and Grom could win their independence back in the WCIII campaign.
Aah, in that manner. Makes a lot more sense.
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Old 08-24-2013, 02:19 PM
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Marmite == only enjoyed by a small group of people, despised by the rest?

I did actually enjoy Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, so call me australian I guess
Marmite is known for being absolutely hated by some people and completely loved by others... It is literally there motto .


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Old 08-25-2013, 03:50 AM
CoDimus the Staunch CoDimus the Staunch is offline

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The Arthas book only did one good thing- it kind of humanized his character after picking up the blade, with his good side feeling guilty when killing people like Uther.
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Old 08-25-2013, 04:16 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
In addition, the orcs didn't exactly lose their independence in the game. They've been stuck on reservations, not in internment camps.
Okay, this thing has always puzzled me.

In the loading maps of the "Exodus of the Horde" there is an Interment Camp noted.

How is it called in the Russian version? "The Reservation of Orcs".

Why? How did the localizers get the information on what the camps were originally supposed to be? What's up with that.

And it's always called like that. Every time it describes the camps, the manual says that the orcs were sent into reservations... I guess they decided that describing the concentration camps would seem too much like a political statement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Call of duty 1 View Post
The Arthas book only did one good thing- it kind of humanized his character after picking up the blade, with his good side feeling guilty when killing people like Uther.
I think it assassinated his character. Made him into some "Meh" punch-clock villain for Ner'zhul, with little motivation or emotions of his own. The game DK Arthas was a combination of sarcasm and ferocity. I mean, look at this snarl:



Then again, maybe it's just that I've read a much better WC3 Arthas's Campaigns' interpretation...

Last edited by Kir the Wizard; 08-25-2013 at 04:20 AM..
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