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Old 12-16-2013, 01:30 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Default What is Wrong with the Horde's Story

Simply put

* They're always getting demonized.
* Aside from a few instances with the dwarves, they have no reason to fight the Alliance.
* Then going through an eternal redemption cycle which Warcraft III already covered.
* Massive scale problems with the Darkspear tribe and now the orcs.
* Gallywix and Sylavanas being totally terrible and the former's appointment making no sense.
* Despite being demonized, they aren't allowed to keep old heroes. They spend much of the time killing their own faction and heroes.
* Baine getting turned into tauren who was willing to fight if pushed into a spineless tauren stereotype.
** New Bad Fanfic Baine: "An entire Tauren tribe gets wiped out and wants to fight the Alliance, exile them." "Lets try to appease the quilboar who've been butchering my people for generations, I'm sure they'll listen this time."
* Garrosh's entire story and constant character derailment.

There's much, much more but you get the idea.

Last edited by JorgeAxe; 12-16-2013 at 01:34 PM..
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  #2  
Old 12-16-2013, 01:34 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Orcs and Tauren got it pretty rough, they need something to make them better again. It sucks that Orcs are meant to be the face of the Horde, yet now they've taken a huge beating that they're likely one of the least powerful nations now. (Although future plotlines will really determine how bad it is.)

I think the rest of the Horde is doing pretty good though.
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:35 PM
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  • Homogenization of the tribes and clans.
  • Gullywax and Sylvanas staying as leaders. (I kinda like 'em, though.)
  • Orcish direction post Wrath.
  • Tauren direction post WC3.
  • Ugly architecture in some cases.
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:42 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Orcs and Tauren got it pretty rough, they need something to make them better again. It sucks that Orcs are meant to be the face of the Horde, yet now they've taken a huge beating that they're likely one of the least powerful nations now. (Although future plotlines will really determine how bad it is.)

I think the rest of the Horde is doing pretty good though.
Orcs lost most of their clans such as Dragonmaw, Warsong, Shattered hand, in the Siege, nobody respects them anymore, and they have no direction at all.

That Baine Fanfic ruined Tauren, beforehand tauren were willing to fight my back. Remember the Tauren unit in Warcraft III, "Death to the enemy".

The Darkspear tribe still have the same problem as always, they're Diet trolls, their scale makes no sense(though orcs share this now), and they're far too friendly with humans considering their bloody history with them.

Goblins are mostly good, except for Gallywix who is the stain on their race.
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:45 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Fair complaints, but isn't Gallywix barely a face though? Goblins don't seem to run into that problem where their faction leader defines everything about them.
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:49 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Fair complaints, but isn't Gallywix barely a face though? Goblins don't seem to run into that problem where their faction leader defines everything about them.
True, its nice they aren't reliant on a leader like Forsaken, though Blizzard will never make Gallywix as a racial leader or Thrall's appointment of him make sense.

Goblins have killed their enemies for far less, Gallywix caused mountainloads of deaths, and throughout the starting zone, every goblin is shown to loathe Gallywix and outright want him dead.
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:59 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Goblins have killed their enemies for far less, Gallywix caused mountainloads of deaths, and throughout the starting zone, every goblin is shown to loathe Gallywix and outright want him dead.
But that's what keeping Gallywix in power. Everyone wants him dead, but no one is going to do anything about it.

As soon as one goblin decides to try something, the other goblins will come in to try to get their piece of the pic and make themselves leader. Everyone wants Gallywix dead, but everyone also wants to take his place.

Quite ingenious....

I will admit that the whole demonizing of Horde, while it's tiring, it's pretty damn easy for Blizzard. After all, the Horde is not the white knight and definetly have a lot of skeletons in the closest. So like with the Alliance, it's just easier to write them that way.

As for my list.

Sylvanas is the end all, be all of the Forsaken.
Baine is a nobody, so while people argue that races are definined by their leaders only, do Tauren fans want their faction to be defined by Baine?
Garrosh's portrayal was piss poor from beginning to end. I didn't want him to be the villain.
Forsaken haven't grown or moved forward without huge amounts of plot armor.
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:01 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
But that's what keeping Gallywix in power. Everyone wants him dead, but no one is going to do anything about it.

As soon as one goblin decides to try something, the other goblins will come in to try to get their piece of the pic and make themselves leader. Everyone wants Gallywix dead, but everyone also wants to take his place.
In the starting zone, basically everyone was willing to support the player over Gallywix actually, and this was before the eruption of Kezan.

Thinking about it, the starting zone should've had the player as Sassy's assistant, with her ultimately gaining the position of Trade Prince at the end.
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  #9  
Old 12-16-2013, 02:06 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
In the starting zone, basically everyone was willing to support the player over Gallywix actually, and this was before the eruption of Kezan.

Thinking about it, the starting zone should've had the player as Sassy's assistant, with her ultimately gaining the position of Trade Prince at the end.
Players really don't count in this instance. For lore and gameplay reasons.

The starting zones are all about puffing up the player as some bigwig who's friends with kings and leaders and everyone loves.

But in the cutthroat politics of goblins, nobody is your friend.
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:06 PM
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They never fucking learn.

When a recurring theme is "Guys, why are we bad for killing the Alliance and trying to steal their lands?", then it's hard to develop without the story descending into stupidity. Either they learn in WoD, or the story's going be stuck in the same cycle over again.
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  #11  
Old 12-16-2013, 02:12 PM
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* Narrative disconnect between the orc redemption arc (and the Kalimdor Horde) and the Forsaken.

* The Alliance not getting their hands dirty or having as many issues of moral ambiguity as the dynamically-changing Horde causes both Alliance and Horde to look bad for what amounts to the same issue: a lack of political verisimilitude, especially in regards to narrative cause-and-effect.

* Writing for Garrosh (and the post-WotLK Horde) has been consistently inconsistent.

* Orcs too reliant on Thrall to clean up their mess. Orcs lack notable young seeded orc characters who could take up the reigns after Thrall. Saurfang and Eitrigg are both old characters who are on their way out.

* Recent backswing on orcish redemption in order to facilitate return of "the 'war' back in Warcraft." (Alliance did not have to sacrifice their moral standing for that endeavor.)

* Homogenization of the various tribes/clans for orcs, trolls, and tauren. You may as well only be Frostwolf or Warsong flavored orc, Bloodhoof or Grimtotem flavored tauren, or Darkspear or Dungeon-loot flavored troll.

* Tauren have become increasingly passive and stale. Three of their major characters are all interchangeable in terms of their personality (or lack thereof): Baine, Hamuul, and Dezco.

* Trolls have little distinction as all trolls are Darkspear. Regardless of their homogenization, the tauren have different tribes and orcs have different clans. Trolls have the fact that they are not the trolls featured in dungeon/raid of the week.

* Forsaken narrative too reliant on Sylvannas. No foreseeable inner conflict or turmoil, at least not post-Wrathgate.
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:43 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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The least developed troll race is now the face of the Horde because reasons. It's now not really 'orcs versus humans' anymore and that is really weird to me. I panic at that the thought that Orgrimmar will become Trollgrimmar.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:01 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
* Trolls have little distinction as all trolls are Darkspear. Regardless of their homogenization, the tauren have different tribes and orcs have different clans. Trolls have the fact that they are not the trolls featured in dungeon/raid of the week.
Then they had to temporarily go neutral in The Rise of The Zandalari, despite the zandalari fitting that role FAR better, and the Darkspear's history of conflict with humans.

Last edited by JorgeAxe; 12-16-2013 at 03:14 PM..
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:04 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Honor. You either have it or you don't, but what is it?
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  #15  
Old 12-16-2013, 03:18 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Honor. You either have it or you don't, but what is it?
Honor (and honor systems) are not exactly some monolithic fixed entity that can be objectively observed and measured. Honor is something that is constantly being culturally negotiated. The modernization of warfare in Azeroth is certainly part of that negotiating process for Horde [i]and[\i] Alliance. What honor is there, for example, in carpet-bombing or nuking a town? Has 'honor' become an outdated concept for both the Horde and Alliance?

Orcs, for example, seem to have several different understandings of "lok'tar ogar." Some orcs understand "victory or death" as synonymous as "victory at all costs," while other view "victory or death" as having an implicit system of honor in place in which there is glory in an honorable death by combat, but that an honorable victory imparts greater glory.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:23 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Orcs, for example, seem to have several different understandings of "lok'tar ogar."
Which is my point. Between Orcs as individuals vs Tauren vs Trolls, everyone has their own meaning. Blizzard either needs to explain what it means for the Horde, or just stop saying it.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:28 PM
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Which is my point. Between Orcs as individuals vs Tauren vs Trolls, everyone has their own meaning. Blizzard either needs to explain what it means for the Horde, or just stop saying it.
Because words and phrases have a fixed meaning for all people?

It means different things for the Horde. Again, that's part of cultural negotiation, which has been common for the Horde. I don't see any inherent problem with it. You seem to want it fixed just so you can have a fixed criteria by which to measure any given Horde hypocrisy.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:32 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Because words and phrases have a fixed meaning for all people?

It means different things for the Horde. Again, that's part of cultural negotiation, which has been common for the Horde. I don't see any inherent problem with it. You seem to want it fixed just so you can have a fixed criteria by which to measure any given Horde hypocrisy.
Yeah, if you're patronizing me because you think I'm some rabid Alliance fan, stop.
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  #19  
Old 12-16-2013, 03:40 PM
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Yeah, if you're patronizing me because you think I'm some rabid Alliance fan, stop.
Rabid? Hardly. You're exceptionally mild. But I seem to recall you having issues with conflicting ideas of Horde honor before in regards to questions of Horde failures to live up to their own sense of honor.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:54 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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The problem is the same as the problem for everything else.

The story is an incoherent, directionless mess of ideas of varying quality. While the ideas themselves are often good, they still aren't consistent with each other, and that makes things feel dumb and unfitting.

I also get the feeling that the writers don't necessarily actually understand what the fans want from things.

Trolls have constantly gotten new cities and lore, but never the Darkspear. Races that are cousins if the Tauren have gotten lore, but other than the Sunwalkers the Tauren themselves haven't gotten shit.

Really. I think all anyone wants is to see their race contribute something unique to its faction, and when it comes to such participation I often feel that only three races really feel like they do so. With Trolls being a particularly poor example, despite the fact that they should actually have things to contribute.

Orcs have tended to contribute the basis and core of the Horde, the Forsaken contribute Alchemy, Blight, and a whole different style of doing things, the Blood Elves bring a mastery of all things Arcane, and the Tauren have their especially close tie to nature and Night Elves.

Now. Trolls on the other hand are hardly there, even when they are there. They don't add anything special. And that's a problem.

Because the Darkspear could add something special. They could have at least tried to recruit other Trolls. They could at least try to use their Loa in places and do something with their unique Troll magics.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:07 PM
Caith Caith is offline

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*Tauren and Forsaken not getting much exposure besides faction leaders
*Forcing of the Villain bat every time they want war in warcraft not from a neutral enemy
*Old heroes are mostly killed off, which kinda caused this next expansion
*Apparently only one clan of good orcs (Frostwolf) the rest apparently sheeple and stupid

Just the ones off the top of my pounding headache.
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  #22  
Old 12-16-2013, 04:49 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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The Horde's problem is that it doesn't change, not fundamentally.

You may get new bells and whistles here and there (Sunwalkers, Relinquary) but things rarely if ever change on a meaningful level. The societies of the Horde never seem to develop beyond the level they had when WoW began.

Orcs are still resource starved primitives, they have done nothing to improve their situation in a sustainable manner. They don't advance technologically or more precisely don't utilize that technology to improve their infrastructure and so improve their lives. I feel part of this is a misguided attempt by Blizzard to preserve themes when in fact they should take those themes and evolve them with the times, don't you guys think it would be cool to see how orcs can develop technologically while still keeping their culture? The culture will have to change but it need not assimilate to any other in the process of advancement.

Undead are still the backstabbing assholes they always were, there has been no real development for them (unless you count becoming even more one dimensional a development). Think about it for a minute, while form may have changed the Forsaken are exactly the same now as they were in Vanilla, Sylvanas was always an evil bitch it is only that now it has become obvious and they always killed people it is only the scale that went up recently. Is this all they are supposed to be? Is this the full extent of what they can be? Mwahahah we kill people!... and that's it? I do not think this is acceptable.

Blood elves who are easily the most developed race of the Horde show symptoms of this as well, their relationship with the Horde still largely remains an alliance of convenience with very little integration over the years with the Horde at large. There needs to be more here, they can't forever be the isolationist elves who mind their own business. For God's sakes that was what got you killed last time, you need to step into the world and for that you need allies. So they need to work with their allies and integrate (both accepting the Horde and changing the Horde).

I hope I made my argument here, and needless to say it holds true for the unmentioned Horde races as well.

The Horde is (in theory) a monolithic empire lead by one man, so show the development of a unified Horde society, influenced by all but not equal to any individual society. Have the elves open magical academies in the Western Horde as well as sell some high culture to the Kalimdor races, while taking back spiritual lessons and a newly discovered appreciation for untouched nature and simpler things. Have the undead develop some actually useful alchemy, for the sake of making money and increasing their influence if nothing else. Meld Horde themes and you will see wonderful things happen.

Last but not the least, give the Horde some actual positive developments. All those lands and things we secured in Outland and Northrend seem to do jack shit to improve the lives of the people of the Horde. There have been many cases of depressing (and not the good kind of depressive) stories in the Horde lately yet virtually never stories where the Horde has pulled its shit together internally and did something good, something to be proud of. So do that, give the Horde more internal oriented stories, some of those about improving their quality of living; basically make it seem like a living society that seeks to improve itself, as is it looks like all Horde races are barely holding on, for years now, what kind of a life is that? How long can one live in misery and apathy?
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:00 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Their reason for being - "wah, the world hates us!" - is either complete and total horseshit or completely, utterly deserved. Give them a better means without becoming total imbeciles ("family defends family... yes, that also means Aunty Plaguey McMurder"), or just acknowledge the horseshitness and what happens when too much of the hoi polloi realize what it actually is.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:28 PM
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Their reason for being - "wah, the world hates us!" - is either complete and total horseshit or completely, utterly deserved. Give them a better means without becoming total imbeciles ("family defends family... yes, that also means Aunty Plaguey McMurder"), or just acknowledge the horseshitness and what happens when too much of the hoi polloi realize what it actually is.
It's clear which camp you belong to in that debate. You seem to have created a false dichotomy. I don't understand why it can't be both.

You have to understand that one of the questions that I believe Garrosh implicitly acknowledges present amongst orcs in his short story is "Do sons inherit the sins of their fathers?" This applies not only to Garrosh and Grom, but also from one generation of orcs to the next. The Orcish Horde undoubtedly has a reason to be hated for the First and Second War, but that does not mean that they should forever be enslaved to that image by others. Do the First and Second Wars mean that the Horde is never allowed to have nice things? Is the Horde wrong when they claim that the world hates them and would like to see their destruction? Regardless of whether it is deserved or not, is there a basis of truth in that perspective? Because the Horde may feel as if it's a family of survivors, it may be more aggressive against others to preserve that sovereignty. (Oddly enough, the situation reminds me a bit of Israel, though if anyone wants to debate that point, then realize that I have no intention of pursuing an off-topic debate.)
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:42 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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It's clear which camp you belong to in that debate. You seem to have created a false dichotomy. I don't understand why it can't be both.
That was definitely an oversight on my part, but ultimately doesn't change the overall falseness of that original narrative.

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You have to understand that one of the questions that I believe Garrosh implicitly acknowledges present amongst orcs in his short story is "Do sons inherit the sins of their fathers?" This applies not only to Garrosh and Grom, but also from one generation of orcs to the next.
Yes, that's very much true. But the question is ultimately made moot when the sons do the exact same thing as the fathers, and then the narrative contorts into a moebius strip of bullshit in which the Horde is simultaneously shown as bad while being touted as good on both sides of the narrative.

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Do the First and Second Wars mean that the Horde is never allowed to have nice things?
No, but every single other time afterwards means it does.

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Is the Horde wrong when they claim that the world hates them and would like to see their destruction? Regardless of whether it is deserved or not, is there a basis of truth in that perspective
The tauren have no reason to believe that at all. Quilboar and centaur and harpies do not the entire world make... doubly so since they become mere pests partway through WC3.

Neither do the blood elves, since at worst the Alliance was looking at them weirdly for some reason (that is speculated to be related to their king allying with the Burning Legion, but will never be confirmed), and then spying (which everyone ever has done, even back in WC1). High elves weren't even a factor beyond the brief window between the time they said 'no' and the moment Lor'themar told them to GTFO of Quel'thalas.

The Forsaken would have had honestly grey moment with killing Garithos, if betrayal wasn't planned from the start. Everything afterwards just devolves into kicking kindergarteners to death on the off-chance they might call you stinky.

Darkspear were only ever attacked by a kingdom turned into cannon fodder, and by some naga. Again, hardly the whole world.

Quote:
Because the Horde may feel as if it's a family of survivors, it may be more aggressive against others to preserve that sovereignty. (Oddly enough, the situation reminds me a bit of Israel, though if anyone wants to debate that point, then realize that I have no intention of pursuing an off-topic debate.)
That's understandable enough, but the other portions of the narrative don't really jive up to it. The Alliance struggles to even remember that the Horde is supposed to be their enemy, even when circumstances (between Wolfheart and Ashenvale questing, ToW, anything involving the Forsaken) demand that they should.

I mean, c'mon, it's like feeling persecuted by a homeless man who tries to kick you every time you get near his box. Stay away from his box, bro, and you'll be fine. Even if the guy sometimes wanders around.
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.

Last edited by Millenia; 12-16-2013 at 05:45 PM..
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